Solicitation letter from logging company.

[Paschale]

Hi everyone,

From time to time, my dad receives unsolicited letters from logging companies interested in harvesting our hardwoods.  Thanks to all the advice on here, particularly from Ron Scott, we've chosen to be a bit leary of these letters.  I thought I'd include the text here of the most recent letter he received just last week.

"My name is _________.  I am writing this letter on behalf of ____________ Logging, Inc.  I was driving by and noticed a large volume of mature trees on your property.  If you would like someone to help manage your timberland, I believe that we may be of some assistance.  If possible, I could meet with you at your property and discusss some options that are available to help you manage and enhance your property.  We also have the abilty to build roads, create wildlife openings and level future building sites.  At the same time, you would receive the monetary benefits that your investment has earned for you.

___________ Logging has been in business for over 25 years.  We are fully insured and SFI certified.  We are a member of the Michigan Association of Timbermen, Michigan/Wisconsin Timber Producers, and the Michigan Forest Resource Alliance.  We are a very reputable company with excellent references from the Michigan Department of Natural Resources, U.S. Forest Service, Mead Westvaco, Champion International, and private land owners.

If you have any questions or concerns, feel free to call me at anytime."

This letter sounds pretty good, and it sounds like it most likely is a reputable company.  I don't know if I like the idea of an internal guy doing a woodland management plan for us, if he works for the company who's also logging the land.  I really like the idea that Ron Scott has proposed time and time again of hiring a consultant who will be our agent at the time of the logging, to be sure that everything is done to our specs.  Perhaps this logging company would be a good company to harvest some of our timber, but I don't like the idea of having someone in the company doing the management plan.  Part of me would still like to chat with the guy anyway, to get a sense of what he thinks about our land and what kinds of ideas he has in mind, as well as what he believes would be a ballpark figure, in his mind, of a first harvest.  Of course, a logging company's idea of a first harvest could be alot different than ours!  My dad's pretty much allowing me to be his agent, since I spend so much time on here.  ;)  Any thoughts you guys have about all this?  It's hopefully just a matter of time before my dad is finally convinced that we really should formulate a master plan, and then implement it.

[Texas Ranger]

This letter sounds pretty good, and it sounds like it most likely is a reputable company.

I'll write you a better letter, pumping up my company as the premier logging company in Michigan, and then hire this bunch to do the logging.  They write to sell themselves, sell their services, but most of all, to buy your timber. 

Get your self a reputable consulting forester, let him do an inventory and make recommendations.  Once you have this, then you have a basis to talk to the guy who sends  you a blind letter, may have never been near your property, and sent out thousands of these letters to a mailing list he purchased from the tax office, voting records, etc.

[Cedarman]

When I go out to buy cedar, I try to give the land owner the benefit of my experience. For hardwoods and pine, I tell them to get a consultant. But I am biased to a certain degree on the cedar part even though I want the landowner to do good by his land. The landowner most often does not have  clue as to whether I am being honest or not. They do not have the information I have.

As Ronald Reagan once said. trust but verify.
You will sleep better with a consultant.

[Ron Wenrich]

I've been on both sides of the fence as a procurement forester and a consulting forester.  From my standpoint, I give the same type of services and administer cuts the same no matter which hat I'm wearing.  I'm not going to trash a landowner's land just to feed a mill or my pocketbook.  But, not all foresters are the same.

As a procurement forester, I have taken inventories, written management plans and proposals before initiating any cutting.  I know of other consultants that have done the same.  I also know timber buyers (notice I didn't say forester) that don't do any of these and have only a rudimentary knowledge of forest management.  Yet, they still offer management services.  

I've seen some pretty good procurement foresters and some pretty lousy consultants.  You should never, ever do anything pertaining to harvesting unless you get more than one opinion.  That includes consultants, loggers, timber buyers and anyone else that is seemingly in the know.  Go with the concensus

I've sent out letters, placed ad, have done cold calls, and knocked on doors.  Its just a way of getting your foot in the door.  But, as a consumer, you want to be educated.  That's the downfall of most landowners.  They allow the salesman to educate them.  Not necessarily good, but not necessarily bad.  Again, you need another opinion to help you out.

The only red flag is that they "noticed a large volume of mature timber".  To me, that's a red flag.  What one guy considers mature, another one doesn't.  But, that get's the landowner to thinking he better cut them before they go bad.  Chances are you have a long time to make a decision.

Good management has more to do with what you leave instead of what you take.  

[Corley5]

Meet with him and see what he has to say but don't sign anything  ;) ;D  I like playing the Game ;D.  My Grandma whose property borders me on two sides routinely gets letters from timber buyers.  I don't and Dad whose land is just across the road never gets any.  That makes me very suspiciuos >:( ;)  I think they look at the plat maps and see a womans name on a piece of land with timber and think easy prey :( >:( 

[Ed_K]

 Unless I'm doing a wildlife clearcut or building lot, I tell the landowner to hire a consulting forester, just to keep both of us sleeping at night.
I do this after having one push to cut more than needed and not care about the land.

[bitternut]

Paschale I get a dozen letters like that every year. I also get a couple of drop ins when I am down hunting. I hired a forestry service and drew up a forestry management plan. I think everyone should have a plan.

[Rockn H]

We get those letters from time to time.  Telling us one of their foresters was at a neighbors property and noticed how desperately our timber needed thining so on and so on.  Funny thing is our timber is land locked with only 7 neighbors and they all get the same letters we do, not to mention our timber was aggressively thinned 6 years ago. ;)

[Ron Scott]

Such letters are a common practice used by timber purchasers soliciting your timber. Names are often taken off the tax rolls and letters are sent to all that may have some timber on their property.

As previousely sated, always check out the source of the timber solicitation letter, get references, a second opinion, or seek out an impartial "professional" consulting forester for advice before you sell your timber. :P

[Phorester]

Offering to manage your forestland when at the same time offering to buy your timber is a conflict of interest.  No way this guy can give you objective management advice if he also wants to buy your timber.

Also, if you meet with this guy first, you are putting the cart before the horse.  Ideally, timber is not sold just to sell timber.  Timber should be sold as a way to meet a management objective of the landowner.

Get a management plan done first, by a qualified professional forester who is working for you, not working for a sawmill.  Then, if taking out trees is one of the methods needed to reach a management goal, sell them the right way as has been discussed several times on this board.

[Hoop]

Here is a literal translation of the letter:


My name is XXX and I'm with YYY Logging Co.  I noticed you had some mature timber and we'd like to slick it off.  If you want to talk about good forestry practices and all that nonsense, we sure can.  Hopefully though, I'd like to hear that you need a sizeable lump of cash for an RV, a new pickup truck, or that overdue operation.  We'll pay you some decent money, but your land is going to look like a tornado went through. 
If you think you're going to get paid what its worth, you're dreaming.  The logging business has as its major business premise to pay as little as possible for stumpage.



YYY Logging has been around for 20 years.  We are a member of AAA, BBB, and CCC good loggers groups.   The fact that we belong to these groups means nothing other than we attended a seminar, paid our dues and the check didn't bounce.
We have some references.  Some good, some bad. 

[Ron Wenrich]

Phorester

Using your same logic, why would you want someone to manage your timber who is in the busines of selling timber?  Most consultants make the bulk of their money selling timber.  If one forester can manage a forest by selling timber, I see no reason another forester can't manage a forest by buying timber. 

I've done it both ways.  I've seen it done badly both ways.

[SwampDonkey]

I think with Phorester's scenario there is more potential for conflict of interest if the forester is buying it for his mill or his boss's mill. If the guy is helping to move the timber from the sale he's choosing possibly different markets and not neccessarily favoring a single mill. The forester marketing the wood isn't likely to be in the same camp as the purchaser of the wood. I would classify myself as a marketor of wood and I don't favor any particular mill. I want the best price for my boss, the land owner. But, as Ron pointed out this does not neccessarily mean the job will be any better. If there is a tree marking plan and management plan then one would hope both scenarios could provide a good job. However, no matter how ya look at this, there is potential for poor results. If ya choose reputable people to carry out your work then one can reduce the number of poor jobs.

[Phorester]

RON, Swampdonkey answered your question to my satisfaction.

[Ron Scott]

A conflict of interest "appears to exists" when the "timber buyer" or  "consulting forester"  offers  to manage your timber when their employer is the the mill that wants to harvest your timber.  ;)

You may better protect "your interests" with you as their employer.

[Ron Wenrich]

As long as the forester is making more money by marking high value trees, there is a conflict of interest, in my opinion.  Its one of the reasons I don't like someone working on commission. 

I know of a couple of consultants that also work as veneer buyers.  They would mark the sale, put it out for bids, then buy back the veneer.  Conflict of interest?   I know of a lot of guys who think not.

If you think that every time a consultant marks a sale it goes out for bids, you would be sadly mistaken.  Some consultants do put a majority out on bids.  Others merely go to a mill and market the timber at a price they have deemed as fair.  Some consultants feed mills.  I see it happen all the time with several different consultants.  Every once in awhile they get caught.

The paper company in our area also marks timber.  They do a great job, and have really promoted the Tree Farm system.  They are not consultants, but maintain a higher level of management then many consultants, since they have a ready source for all the low grade. 

My point is that the title consultant doesn't make a forester superior to another.  As a consumer, you have to do the research to make sure they really are working for you, no matter if the title is consultant, procurement or service forester.

[thecfarm]

I get them letters too.I think they look to see who has land and off goes a letter.I would like to cut the wood myself,but if not,I know of a logger I would let cut it off.I've been watching him cut for years.I don't like to be bothered by people that I don't know.I know what I have and know how I want it cut.

[Frickman]

We just got one of those letters a couple of weeks ago. It was a cheap, blurry, poorly-made photocopy addressed to "Landowner." The mill that sent it must have just hired a new forester, because everyone in the industry in our area knows that we have our own logging and sawmill outfit.

I've seen firsthand the consultants who just feed a few mills. There is a forester in my neck of the woods who will not allow me to bid on his timber sales. He rigs the bids to make it look like a competitive process to the landowner and ends up selling it at a reduced price to his favorite mills. Since he works on commission these mills make up for his lower fees with generous kickbacks.

[Ron Scott]

Evidently one should only hire consultants that are certified by the Society of American Foresters and are approved members of the Association of Consulting Foresters of America, Inc.

Both have a strong "code of ethics" that must be followed and have taken such consulting foresters to task for violations.  :P

More reasons for mandatory forest certification I guess.  :(

[SwampDonkey]

Well I agree there needs to be some way of looking over their shoulders. Some forestry associations that don't have legislation to practice forestry don't have a discaplinary process. I'm pretty certain there are only two provinces that do and they are Quebec and BC. I know in BC your work over a 3 year period is reviewed by a pannel of your peers in the Association. For those that think they got away with something unethical, they will be judged. ;)

[Sawyerfortyish]

In 25 yrs of running a mill and cutting timber I have seen a lot of things that weren't right. Just like frickman said there are foresters that have a favorite mill that gets all there jobs. It doesn't matter how many loggers or mills are in the area they never get to look at the job. I also seen a forester mark timber and leave the nice stuff and 5 yrs down the road after someone did the job created the roads and landing and built bridges went back marked and cut the good stuff himself.
  You need to find a forester that doesn't get a paycheck from a mill. Also I think it may not be such a bad idea to talk to that guy that sent you the letter ask for referances and call them and maybe go look at a job and see first hand what kind job was done. Some of the things you might look at is did the logging co damage remaining trees did they grade the skid road or leave ruts did they lop down the tree tops or just leave it where it fell. Does it look like a clear cut or did they leave something for the future. How much of the tree did they take. How much is left to rot. I've seen a logger that just took the first 18 or 20 ft of a tree and left a lot of sawable logs to rot because he couldn't make much on the low grade logs. You as a land owner need to be able to read between the lines and judge the people your dealing with.

[Phorester]

Ron Wenrich (using your last name because there's another Ron or 2 on here  ;D), I agree with you in your assessment of some Consulting Foresters.  I felt Swampdonkey covered that when he said a landowner needs to choose reputable people.  Applies to Consulting Foresters too. 

[brian1948]

If you want to have your wood harvested, hire a professional to scale it for you and sell for that price.  If not, ignore them all.
Brian

[Jeff]

If you want to have your wood harvested, hire a professional to scale it for you and sell for that price.  If not, ignore them all.
Brian

I guess I don't understand this reply. Do you mean ignore all the solicitors or ignore the advice? Do you mean that you have one person scale your timber and only sell at that persons price?

Maybe I am misunderstanding your post here, but its not advice I would recommend whats so ever.

[Ed_K]

 Best option, hire a consulting forester to scale the timber and put it out to bid.