Constructing a walking bridge and dealing with the powers that be

[chesterspal]

Thanks for all the help I was given when I asked about installing a culvert on my land. Much appreciated. That project will come up this spring.

I now have a new issue on the same parcel. My neighbor is refusing to sell me an easement to cross his land off the ROW (also on his land) to my property. No easement means I now have to cross a stream to get to the lower portion of the land.

This will no doubt involve the state conservation and/or town inland wetlands departments and that whole kettle of fish.

At a bare minimum, I'm looking at a flat bridge 48" wide by 10' long. Two steel H beams sitting atop a 6 x 6 x 6' PT beam at each end. The deck composed of 2 x 8's. This will be "marketed" as a walking bridge (the main purpose for it) but built so as to support my riding mower, ATV and small Bobcat.

The actual location seen here:

All kinds of issues to potentially deal with. 

1) Can the end beams sit on land that may be wet from time to time... i.e. after the May thaw, heavy rains, etc.?




2) I will need to clear a path to the bridge and fill it in, where necessary, to get to the stream. There can be limitations on doing that within a certain footage of wetlands areas.



No large trees need come down but some of the rats nest of new growth will  need to be cleaned up.
The main issue is a clear, stable path for the Bobcat. No issues for my Honda ATV and my mower can probably almost make it.

I'm hoping someone on this forum has had to go through a similar process and can shed some light on what I should do... how much I should reveal about my intentions and to whom... Basically, how to proceed to get the job done but not run afoul and get fined in the end.

All comments are welcome as I greatly appreciate the feedback   :new_year:

[GAB]

Please fill in your profile so we can at least know what state you are in.
This would help in getting advice from someone who has been there in the same state.
In some states the rules are different for agricultural uses.
Good luck and Happy New year to you also.
GAB

[chesterspal]

The land is in Vermont. It is set up for the forestry program but not as agricultural.

I guess that makes us neighbors  :D

[GAB]

The land is in Vermont. It is set up for the forestry program but not as agricultural.

I guess that makes us neighbors  :D

Well in that case - Howdy neighbor
GAB

[doc henderson]

the near bank looks pretty muddy/soft.  how far back will the ends need to be to have solid footing.  You may want the bridge elevated some to account for the beams and may want a hinging approach to move if the supports sink in the mud.  with such a small bridge and a bobcat, at least every so often you can go and lift an end to put rock under for more support. you may want 3 6 x 6s side by side to broaden the footprint in what looks like mud and start throwing some rock in there.  I have no experience getting permission and have never had to apologize either.

[doc henderson]

does your neighbor have a valid concern, or is he just one of those guys?  I guess he should hope he never needs a favor from you.  Are you new to the area? 

[chesterspal]

does your neighbor have a valid concern, or is he just one of those guys? ...  Are you new to the area?

I've done nothing to him. The prior owner was a logger who had full access to his land for all his heavy duty equipment for almost a year. Maybe he had had enough so when the land got put back on the market, up went the No Trespassing signs. I cannot say for sure. I offered to pay for it. Was not looking for something for free. I'm just a recreational owner and I live in another state so my access needs were really minimal.

Water over the dam as they say. I've moved on so I won't comment further about that aspect.

As to your suggestions about footing on the mud.... that is all tentative at this point. Right now I need to grapple with getting clearance (or not). The final design issues will (hopefully) come later.

Hope I can get help from you all, now.

[Southside]

Honestly you will be better off getting this done and done right, each and every ROW I have ever seen has eventually ended up in a peeing contest. 

[Ron Scott]

You should check with the local County Drain Commissionaire to see if the stream is a certified drain and with the local State DNR as to what the Best Management Practices are that they recommend and will permit for such water crossings so that you will know what's legally required and can comply with their minimum requirements.

[beenthere]

We see lots of ATV and snowmobile trail bridges put in place that would likely work for your walking bridge.

[Magicman]

I would lay a header on each side, parallel to the stream, for the bridge stringers to rest on.  I would want the stringers to be at least a foot above the high water mark because flood water can have much lift and strength/force.  I would also want the upstream side to be a couple of inches lower than the downstream side.

[chesterspal]

You should check with the local County Drain Commissionaire to see if the stream is a certified drain and with the local State DNR as to what the Best Management Practices are that they recommend and will permit for such water crossings so that you will know what's legally required and can comply with their minimum requirements.

I understand this.

I'm hoping, in the interim and with the holiday, there might be someone on this forum who has had to do it and can recommend the do's and dont's of how to proceed.

These state folks have their loyalties to their employer (and rightly so) and can make things way more difficult and costly than they need to be.

I have no qualms about taking the high road, but there may be things I do not need to bring up that can come back to bite me in the behind later on.

Thanks

[thecfarm]

What little I know, "them" people do not walk around looking for things that are wrong. Most times someone reports a problem, and they go check into it.
Question is, how do you really get along with your neighbors?  ;)
Now if it's on a main road and they drive by and see it.......
I have a small stream, kinda looks like yours, that borders my land. If I had to cross it that would be a problem. It might be 10 feet wide in places.
During the summer, except for this year, it might be 2 feet deep. Now its 4 feet deep and about 20 feet wide. meaning it has overflowed the bankens and has spread out over dry land. It's that way now. We had a wet summer and we had about 6-7 inches of rain in 2 weeks.

[stavebuyer]

Farm Service Agency if you want to be legal. Most aren't.

As to the particulars I don't see much of an elevated bank, and I would think you would need a couple feet of clearance over the current stream level to keep the bridge from becoming a dam during flash floods. If it's not practical to get above the expected high-water mark then you need a good way to anchor the I beam.

[chesterspal]

Farm Service Agency if you want to be legal. Most aren't.

Assume this is what you're calling what VT refers to as the Dept. of Environmental Conservation (?)

Since you brought it up and just for discussion... what happens to the "most aren't" ?

[Southside]

FSA should have an office within the local USDA office where farmers go to report harvests and such. 

[chesterspal]

FSA should have an office within the local USDA office where farmers go to report harvests and such.

Well, for what it's worth... and as I stated already... my land is not registered as farm land.

It is set up in the VT forestry program. I'm not aware of any perks in regards to bridges and streams, but I stand corrected if someone on here is.

[Southside]

They will be the subject matter experts when it comes to crossing surface water.

[doc henderson]

If I had an opportunity, I would be curious to ask the prev. owner about the relationship.  seems odd.  again, may be water under the bridge, but I also like the old saying, "seek first to understand".

[stavebuyer]

Stream Crossing (No.) (578) Conservation Practice Standard | Natural Resources Conservation Service

Your life will be much easier if you intend to develop your little stream bottom to produce a few blackberries or pasture a few goats even after further analysis you decide to abandon the idea.

[chesterspal]

Found this.

It may just be the answer to my prayers.

I have highlighted the pertinent portions. Your interpretation is most welcome.

The way I read it, I can have a bridge (up to) 5' wide that is (at least) 12" above the water with a deck having (1") spacing.

I can create a clear path to the bridge with fill of under 250 square feet worth. So, there can be a 5' wide path that can extend 50' from the stream.

If I follow their quidelines, I do not need to pull a permit and I should not need to go through an inspection.

[doc henderson]

That is great!

[chesterspal]

That is great!

Thanks, Doc  smiley_blue_bounce

[Ljohnsaw]

Nice guidelines. However, I read the approach fill limit as a total of 250 sq-ft. It says cumulative. So, that means you can have, for example, a 5' wide x 25' long ramp on each side of your bridge. That's still a respectable length.

[John Mc]

If you are in Vermont's Forestry Current Use Program, the first place I would go is to my county forester. Tell him/her you need to establish access on the Right-of-Way to your land which will include a stream crossing, and ask them what you need to do to accomplish this legally. If you have a copy of the language in your ROW description, it would be helpful to bring that along with you to anyone with whom you are discussing this.

You have the right to access your land. You just need to make sure you are going about it the correct way.

I'm a fellow Vermonter here in Monkton. What town are you in? I may have some contacts in your area who could be helpful.

John

[Big_eddy]

I can't help with the legal aspects, but when it comes to the bridge design, I may be able to. If your bank is solid and the stream depth rarely changes, then as said before, a 6x6 beam or two laid parallel to the stream about twice the width of the actual bridge deck provides pretty good support. If the stream level does change significantly, then you will need some protection for the bridge supports. In the case, I could add wings upstream and downstream of the beams, (think V with a flat bottom) and raise the bridge itself a couple of courses, back filled with larger stones and topped with gravel.

If the banks are soft and not solid, then you would be better served by augering a few 3'-4' deep holes on either side of the beam, and dropping in hydro pole sections as piles, then laying your 6x6 beam across the tops. Again add flood protection if the water levels rise significantly. 

Depending on the weight of your "small" skid steer and the total span, you might not need steel. I cross a 12' span with my compact backhoe (3500lb) on 6x6s regularly and the bridge is very solid.

[NE Woodburner]

Like Big_eddy, I can't help much with the legal issues but do have a suggestion for bridge design. This is a good application for the use of helical piles. They can be installed with minimal ground disturbance and can be installed with a skid steer or mini excavator outfitted with the proper attachment, which I'm assuming you could get in there. There are also portable power packs that you could use if you can't get small equipment in there. You may need the help of a design engineer to come up with the pile type and configuration. Vertical piles will support the bridge loads and sometimes piles are driven at an angle to stabilize the bridge laterally. You may be able to build pressure treated headers and wood-frame the bridge for the capacity you need. If not, steel beams or concrete could be used, but sounds like you could keep it simple and keep costs down for your needs.

Helical piles are often used for boardwalks in wet areas and small bridges. A google search will give you lots of ideas.

Good luck.

[doc henderson]

 

 

 

 

 

The above are photos from Colorado at our summer camp.  we extended a 20-foot bridge that you descended down to, and then up the other side, and it was 4 feet wide.  now 36 feet long plus approaches built up with RR ties and filled with gravel (rock from the road cutouts).  now 6 feet wide and able to let a 4-wheeler pass.  cuts a half mile off the trek to archery and rifle.  Telephone poles with a stabilizing brace across the center.  It is always muddy and has running water with almost every rain or with overflow from the lake a mile up.  It is now 4 feet above the ground.  you can see the footprint of the prev. bridge. 

[chesterspal]

Nice guidelines. However, I read the approach fill limit as a total of 250 sq-ft. It says cumulative. So, that means you can have, for example, a 5' wide x 25' long ramp on each side of your bridge. That's still a respectable length.

I don't think they mean a "ramp" as something like a wooden structure.

I read that as you can clear an area of branches and duff (stuff on the ground) up to 250 square feet (say 5' wide by 50' in total) to make access to the bridge easier.

[chesterspal]

If you are in Vermont's Forestry Current Use Program, the first place I would go is to my county forester....

A similar issue arose least year and I was told (by the VT forester) to deal with another department.

Three emails and I'm still awaiting a reply. It's only been 7 months.

I have no problem doing what's right.

I would just ask the other side to hold up their end of the bargain.

[beenthere]

My suggestion would be to move forward and within the limits of the .pdf document you found. Beg for forgiveness if anyone objects. And have the paperwork of what you have submitted to both the forester and the non-responsive department.

[John Mc]

If you are in Vermont's Forestry Current Use Program, the first place I would go is to my county forester....

A similar issue arose least year and I was told (by the VT forester) to deal with another department.

Three emails and I'm still awaiting a reply. It's only been 7 months.

I have no problem doing what's right.

I would just ask the other side to hold up their end of the bargain.

I was not figuring the forester would be the final stop, just that they would know who to talk to. I have no idea what to do about the department not responding.

There are times I wish I had take the path Beenthere suggested

[KEC]

Anyone know if Cornell Cooperative Extension might be helpful ? County Extension agents (IIRC) used to help people with building ponds and such. Seeking the right people to consult early on is often best. Many horror stories revolve around just going ahead with a project without consulting the appropriate agency. Then the nit picking starts.

[John Mc]

Anyone know if Cornell Cooperative Extension might be helpful ? County Extension agents (IIRC) used to help people with building ponds and such. Seeking the right people to consult early on is often best. Many horror stories revolve around just going ahead with a project without consulting the appropriate agency. Then the nit picking starts.

Probably not, since Chesterspal's property is in VT and the Cornell Cooperative Extension is NY.

[chesterspal]

My suggestion would be to move forward and within the limits of the .pdf document you found. Beg for forgiveness if anyone objects. And have the paperwork of what you have submitted to both the forester and the non-responsive department.

I met with the town's main zoning official this past week. Told him of my needs and showed him my bridge design. All cards on the table. He verified I was not working within a flood area (using online VT maps, etc.) and said I did not need a permit from the town for my bridge.

It was suggested I still contact the state for their blessing. That's what I did. Now I await a reply.

Winter is coming... so they say... so, I'll need to hold off doing any work. However, when the time comes and I need access on the other side, the bridge will need to go up.

Plan B:

They make these 10' by 20" wide aluminum truck ramps that can support 5,000lbs per axel.

https://www.discountramps.com/loading-ramp/auto/p/05-16-120-04/?srsltid=AfmBOopb1hEY29eS-Q5WsGlzS46d5aMIHgrxKw-bupL6fdA_JN7J1dO-uSY

These would work fine to get my skid steer on the other side. They could simply be pulled away when I'm not up there.

No permanent structure to deal with plus they can be moved to other areas I may need to access.

Any thoughts on this, should the need arise?

[John Mc]

If you are looking at removable structures, you might want to look in to temporary skidder bridges. The Vermont Dept of Forest Parks and Recreation published some designs. They first put these up about 15 years ago, but the designs have been updated.

VT FPR Temporary Skidder Bridge Plans

Some of the plans include drag bars, which makes an easy place to attach chains to drag them in and out.

[chesterspal]

If you are looking at removable structures, you might want to look in to temporary skidder bridges...

I have two of these on my land now. There when I purchased the propperty. The prior owner installed them, but he had the equipment to do so.

These are heavy, 3-beam sections that need something like a crane or excavator to move and install.
They also require access to where they need to go. I do not have that. The reason for this thread.

Anything I do going forward must be doable by me as a 70 year old, 150 pound individual.

[chesterspal]

For the loggers on this forum...

Can you explain why the prior owner of my land, a logger, created this massive pile of (junk) logs before selling the land?

Is it just common practice to create this as part of the logging process?





I now need to remove it (or move it) somehow to gain access to the section of land off in the distance. My thoughts are to rent a chipper and use the material to fill in the wet sections, as needed.

[Jeff]

Very poor plan to put mulch or sawdust in a wet area. You make it permanently wet.

[doc henderson]

how deep is the creek?  at 10 feet wide, I bet you can wrangle some temp stuff across to get to where you can build you bridge.

[chesterspal]

how deep is the creek?  at 10 feet wide, I bet you can wrangle some temp stuff across to get to where you can build you bridge.

This picture is from a different location on the property.

Does not involve my little walking bridge project.

[beenthere]

chester
Think you are going to have to make some decisions and then decide if will buy or at least rent the equipment to accomplish your job(s) ahead.

The log jam pic looks like logging slash that has washed into a massive pile from the creek rising (flash flood). A match will be your friend to burn that pile when the time is right. Either that, or wait for it to rot down. But flash flooding is one of the reasons that rules are handed down to restrict or disallow such things as logging slash and/or bridges to be across stream/creeks.

Good luck figuring out a way to get to your property. A drawing showing a map of the property outline, the location of the stream bed, and where you need to get to would help with more helpful comments. Wish you well.

[chesterspal]

The log jam pic looks like logging slash that has washed into a massive pile from the creek rising (flash flood). A match will be your friend to burn that pile when the time is right.

Some of this may have washed down from heavy rain (from the left side) but the majority of the pile was there when I purchased the property in 2023 and prior to the flooding up there in June. The stream is downhill and to the right and there are trees in between so it did not wash up from there as all logging was to the left.

More like the logger was a slob. He knew he was selling it, after he took his 10 year quota in 1 year, and could care less how he left it for the future.

My friend also suggested I contract for someone to burn it when there is snow on the ground.

...flash flooding is one of the reasons that rules are handed down to restrict or disallow such things as logging slash and/or bridges to be across stream/creeks...

Interesting you say this is not allowed. I had the VT forester for my area come and inspect the property prior to my purchase to make sure all logging work was done to their specifications. I did not want to be on the hook if it was not, later on. This never came up.

Thanks

[doc henderson]

Actually, I was back to the original point of the thread, and how to get stuff across the waterway.  Can you remind me of your goals for the property on the other side of the creek.  If goals include DIY and keeping costs low and use for recreation, that will change my thoughts and suggestions.  If you simply seek information about your legal tact, then I am done.  We all love to design, and problem solve and potentially spend your money with ideas.  Trying to help you refocus us (me) and help if we can. 

[KEC]

chesterspal, do a simple computer search for Vermont Cooperative Extension. As a landowner, they may be helpful to you.

[Ron Scott]

It looks like the logger wanted to use the logging debris to close the access to that section of property.

[John Mc]

If you are looking at removable structures, you might want to look in to temporary skidder bridges...

I have two of these on my land now. There when I purchased the propperty. The prior owner installed them, but he had the equipment to do so.

These are heavy, 3-beam sections that need something like a crane or excavator to move and install.
They also require access to where they need to go. I do not have that. The reason for this thread.

Anything I do going forward must be doable by me as a 70 year old, 150 pound individual.

When you said you had a bobcat, I figured you would use that to drag it in to place. If you can't drive through the stream to drag it in, you might be able to put a block and tackle on the other side to drag it woult having to get your Bobcat across first.

It's a simple thing to set these in if you have the equipment. Making friends with someone with an appropriate sized tractor with a front-end loader or hiring someone with that equipment would get it in place quickly and simply. You'll get better life outof anything wooden if you have some sort of footer on each side to keep it up out of the water and dirt. Some people use rote resistant wood, such as Black Locust for the footers, some use pressure treated lumber. I'll probably be doing a crossing one of these days were I use a couple of the concrete blocks (made from the leftovers that come back on the trucks after a delivery) to serve as footers for the ends of my bridge.

[doc henderson]

you could get the platform prefabbed and push it across on some beams just big enough to support the bridge platform.  shove it from one side and now can drive across and support up each end, build the on and off ramps.

build it, back it in with a car trailer and let the back cantilever part over the stream, then push or pull it off to the spot, and drive out from under it.

[stavebuyer]

For the loggers on this forum...

Can you explain why the prior owner of my land, a logger, created this massive pile of (junk) logs before selling the land?

Is it just common practice to create this as part of the logging process?





I now need to remove it (or move it) somehow to gain access to the section of land off in the distance. My thoughts are to rent a chipper and use the material to fill in the wet sections, as needed.

Thats a "slash pile". Basically, waste wood trimmed off at the yarding/loading area. Not at all unusual to see it pushed off to the side into a pile. Pushing into a stream channel would be unacceptable, but not sure the photo gives enough background to make any judgements.
A chipper would be unfeasible. Thats packed tight and probably has as much dirt as wood. If it's blocking a stream channel hire an excavator to cut a channel. Otherwise, I'd leave it to rot and go around it.

Recently cutover ground with little attention paid to reclamation or aesthetics generally sells at a steep discount. Time will fix most of it; money can speed the process.

[chesterspal]

Thanks for the continued replies to my question. Been out of town for a few days but will try and reply to thoughts posed since then.

Thats a "slash pile".... A chipper would be unfeasible. Thats packed tight and probably has as much dirt as wood. If it's blocking a stream channel hire an excavator to cut a channel. Otherwise, I'd leave it to rot and go around it.

Others have replied that wood chips make for poor wet area fill so that idea is now dead. The logger could have found a better location for the pile. It is blocking access to a major portion of my land so I will need to figure something out. I cannot get heavy machinery back there. There is another stream... really a rain run-off channel... that I'd need to bridge.


It's a simple thing to set these in if you have the equipment. Making friends with someone with an appropriate sized tractor with a front-end loader or hiring someone with that equipment would get it in place quickly and simply.

I don't have an easement to get over there and the land owner will not let me pay for one. If I had the easement, I would not need the bridge. I need to perform this task from my land with my bare hands. I have a small Bobcat. Really, it's the Melroe M371. If any of you are into this kind of thing, this link is to my machine.

https://www.skidsteerforum.com/threads/melroe-m371-mods.119483/

I can do some earth moving with it... some digging and carrying of dirt, rocks, gravel. I have forks for it. It weighs only 2,000lbs so I can easily make a bridge that will support it out of galvanized steel H beams with a wooden deck.


It looks like the logger wanted to use the logging debris to close the access to that section of property.

What a guy  >:(


Actually, I was back to the original point of the thread, and how to get stuff across the waterway.  Can you remind me of your goals for the property on the other side of the creek.  If goals include DIY and keeping costs low and use for recreation, that will change my thoughts and suggestions... 

My only use is for recreation. Camping, hiking, fishing, dirt bike riding, ATV riding, enjoying nature in all it's glory. From what I uderstand, VT has an open door policy. Anyone can use anothers land for recreational purposes (correct me if I'm wrong on this VT guys) and their ain't much you can do about it. They do offer some legal protection to land owners should someone who was not invited (i.e. trespassing) gets injured. They cannot come back and sue the owner.

I'm perfectly fine with this.

[doc henderson]

Well, if the water is not too deep or when the level is down, i think you could cantilever a telephone or two across the creek.  put it over a rolling fulcrum like a short pole and push it from your near side while holding the near end down.  roll it to the other side.  then even if this is a temporary bridge you can get you bobcat to the other side as needed. 

[doc henderson]

looks like reviewing pics to be about 15 inches deep with a rocky bottom.  nice.  with your bobcat, this seems like a fun project.  do you have building or engineering experience??

[Southside]

Rent a mini-ex with a thumb for a day and you can make short work of that slash pile.  Put the wood into one pile that you can burn and grade off the dirt that was pushed into the pile with the skidder blade.   

[beenthere]

Just saw this video by Camarata. Says a $4k mini.. was an interesting watch, if nothing else. might be worth a look and if nothing else, a rental.
Buying a new 00 excavator - YouTube

[chesterspal]

Found what might be an interesting solution to the soggy areas on my land. My wood chip idea was shot down so this might turn out to be a better solution and not that expensive, either.





You fill in this 2" high "webbing" with gravel or dirt and it will hold the material in place even when wet. The design allows for proper drainage. Seen this used locally by my town at the park where they had significant water pooling in some areas of the parking lot.

Now no more.

https://www.agtec.com/agtec-geocell-ground-grid-2-inch-8-4ft-x-27-4ft?gclid=CjwKCAiA44OtBhAOEiwAj4gpOXsI4bM9WFlUNFh_WSGf-tV0tv2Np7bRv-U5IIOoKHfOArD4n7J74BoCo4oQAvD_BwE

[doc henderson]

that is neat and not too expensive.  might be just right for your approaches. 

[chesterspal]

Question on the burning of this wood debris or "slash pile" you folks call it.

Is this likely something I need to coordinate with the town fire marshal and have a fire truck standing by... at my expense?

I know open burning was outlawed in my original area of Connecticut some 50 years ago but when I moved to another part of the state, they do it all the time. As an asthmatic this ticks me off big time.

Not sure what you can do in VT, so if someone can answer that question??

[Ljohnsaw]

Out here you go to any firehouse and get a burn permit that is good for two years. It had the rules written out. Piles no bigger than x, can only contain y, need water nearby, etc.  Also, have to call the Burn Number to see if it is a Burn Day.

Stop by a local firehouse?

[beenthere]

As an asthmatic this ticks me off big time.

What ticks you off? ..that you are asthmatic or that you can burn?

[BillMlry]

If your potential creek crossing site is not in plain view from a well traveled road and your uncooperative neighbor I'm reminded of the old adage "it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission."  From the looks of your photo it doesn't look like it's all that wide a creek so if it was me and the above caveats hold I'd just build the darned thing using the best references available and common sense and keep my mouth shut.  It's your land and you're not going to unknowingly do anything to harm it or the environment.  Regulators look for excuses to protect their jobs and turf and I'm convinced some of them delight in hassling citizens/taxpayers/land owners, etc..  I'm just saying.....if it was me?

[Ron Scott]

Burning is usually allowed when the ground is snow-covered. If not, then a burning permit is usually required, and it is best to have one.

Check with your local DNR, USFS, or fire department for a permit to burn. They are usually easy to obtain unless weather conditions are a risk to burning. Burning permits are now even issued online.

[doc henderson]

What is allowed in Connecticut has nothing to do with rural America.  use common sense.  follow the rules.  If the fire is burning well, very little smoke.  Get a permit, but if it is windy, do not burn. A fire station in Ks would have a red flag raised for wind, or low humidity, stating you should not burn.  If you do and start a fire that gets out of hand, you will be scolded.  In rural areas it is somewhat assumed that you have common sense.  We do a lot of burns to prevent big grass fires and to prevent loss of life and property.  Do not look to California as most of their problems are created by their own mindset.

[John Mc]

From what I uderstand, VT has an open door policy. Anyone can use anothers land for recreational purposes (correct me if I'm wrong on this VT guys) and their ain't much you can do about it. They do offer some legal protection to land owners should someone who was not invited (i.e. trespassing) gets injured. They cannot come back and sue the owner.

Well, you've got a few bits & pieces of how thing work in Vermont, but that's not quite right.

In Vermont, if land is not posted as "no trespassing", then people can walk, snowshoe, hunt or fish on your property without seeking permission. However, even if it's not posted, if an owner asks you to leave, you must leave.

If you follow the proper procedure to legally post your land, people may NOT enter it without your permission (There are some obvious exceptions: police, emergency reponders, etc.)

You cannot operate a motorized vehicle on someone else's property regardless of whether it is posted or not unless you have WRITTEN permission. (I'm assuming driving up someone's driveway if not posted is an exception to this.)

Vermont does have good legal protection for landowners. As long as you are not charging for the use of your land you are not liable if someone gets hurt while recreating on your land. (You are still liable for deliberate acts on your part or gross negligence.) If you charge or receive something of value for the use of your land, you are not protected by those laws.

[chesterspal]

In Vermont, if land is not posted as "no trespassing", then people can walk, snowshoe, hunt or fish on your property without seeking permission.... If you follow the proper procedure to legally post your land, people may NOT enter it without your permission.

Posting, even if I wanted to, would be a huge and expensive operation. These signs need to be placed every so many feet and with owning a large parcel it is not practical. I'm willing to let others enjoy my property as long as it does not become a garbage dump. 

[chesterspal]

If your potential creek crossing site is not in plain view from a well traveled road and your uncooperative neighbor I'm reminded of the old adage "it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission."

I've done things all by the book. Cleared it with the town's head zoning official and asked for the same from the State. No reply as yet from them.

When the time comes in the Spring, the bridge goes up. I won't need to ask for forgiveness because I already asked for permission.

Failure to reply is the same as saying "OK" in my book.

[GAB]

If your potential creek crossing site is not in plain view from a well traveled road and your uncooperative neighbor I'm reminded of the old adage "it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission."

I've done things all by the book. Cleared it with the town's head zoning official and asked for the same from the State. No reply as yet from them.

When the time comes in the Spring, the bridge goes up. I won't need to ask for forgiveness because I already asked for permission.

Failure to reply is the same as saying "OK" in my book.

Not knowing who or what department you spoke to I would suggest, if you can find out if they are obligated to reply to you within a specified time frame.  If so, and they fail that might be a green light for you.
As to your bridge - I would wait for a dry spell then hire a decent size excavator and place a concrete retaining wall block on each side and build from there.  Maybe 4 of them if they are too short for your desired width.
Concerning your slash pile if you hire an excavator maybe that could be used to move the slashing to where it does not affect your access.  As far as burning I would not do it as it might simmer/smoke for a long time and a good wind could cause you unintended consequences.  I would probably place a wooden monument in front of the slash pile giving credit to the previous owner for all tresspassers to see.
Good luck and wishing you the best.
GAB

[chesterspal]

Not knowing who or what department you spoke to I would suggest, if you can find out if they are obligated to reply to you within a specified time frame.  If so, and they fail that might be a green light for you.

My last attempt to contact this very same fellow was over 6 months ago and I'm still waiting for his reply.... after three attempts.

Do you suppose the Statute of Limitations has run out on that one  :D? 

As to your bridge - I would wait for a dry spell then hire a decent size excavator...

If I could access the land with an excavator I'd not need the bridge. You will need to go back up to my initial posting so see my issues.

[GAB]

Not knowing who or what department you spoke to I would suggest, if you can find out if they are obligated to reply to you within a specified time frame.  If so, and they fail that might be a green light for you.

My last attempt to contact this very same fellow was over 6 months ago and I'm still waiting for his reply.... after three attempts.

Do you suppose the Statute of Limitations has run out on that one  :D? 

I have no idea what the Statute of Limitations is or would be.
GAB

[chesterspal]

Do you suppose the Statute of Limitations has run out on that one  :D? 

I have no idea what the Statute of Limitations is or would be.
GAB

I was (kind of.... but, not really) joking.

Look, I pay taxes in VT just as you do, GAB. These folks theoretically work for us as taxpayers. They have a duty to respond in a timely fashion to legitimate issues regarding their departmental duties, do they not?

So, they are acting as our employees in some respect.

Frankly, if I was his boss... I'd fire his ass.

[GAB]

How big a flame you plan on using.
GAB

[Raider Bill]

As far as posting your whole property, does Vermont have a purple paint law?
I did 133 acres in a couple hours.
I did have access to most of the boundaries.

[chesterspal]

As far as posting your whole property, does Vermont have a purple paint law?

It appears there was a Bill introduced back in 2022, but it does not look like it went anywhere that I can find.

https://legislature.vermont.gov/Documents/2022/Docs/BILLS/S-0151/S-0151%20As%20Introduced.pdf

Anyway, I'm fine with others accessing my land for non-motorized recreational use. I support the "bring out what you bring in" policy and I hope others will abide by it.

[Southside]

Found what might be an interesting solution to the soggy areas on my land. My wood chip idea was shot down so this might turn out to be a better solution and not that expensive, either.





You fill in this 2" high "webbing" with gravel or dirt and it will hold the material in place even when wet. The design allows for proper drainage. Seen this used locally by my town at the park where they had significant water pooling in some areas of the parking lot.

Now no more.

https://www.agtec.com/agtec-geocell-ground-grid-2-inch-8-4ft-x-27-4ft?gclid=CjwKCAiA44OtBhAOEiwAj4gpOXsI4bM9WFlUNFh_WSGf-tV0tv2Np7bRv-U5IIOoKHfOArD4n7J74BoCo4oQAvD_BwE

Have you looked into building a ford as a crossing instead?  That retainer material with 6" rock would make a solid bottom you could cross.

[chesterspal]

Have you looked into building a ford as a crossing instead?  That retainer material with 6" rock would make a solid bottom you could cross.

This idea was floated, here, before.

I found exactly one video on Youtube for building a ford and it was a massive project involving a cement truck and a full crew.

These state conservation types tend to frown on anything that is in the water or impedes or changes the flow in any way.

Hence, I will always be better going with a bridge, if possible.

The stream I need to cross is 7 feet wide and around 2 feet deep. My best bet is a bridge.

[beenthere]

7' wide stream with a 10' long bridge?

Per the OP

At a bare minimum, I'm looking at a flat bridge 48" wide by 10' long.

We want to help with good suggestions for you, but so far don't think we are getting the full picture from you. Sorry 'bout that.

[stavebuyer]

7'x2' at normal flow is a sizeable stream and must involve a considerable drainage area to sustain that kind of flow. The powers that be also take a dim view of structures that alter or impede the flow of water in a flood plain. There is no cheap and easy fix to this problem. It has been suggested by myself and others that you get in touch with the water quality specialists at your local USDA Farm Service Agency. Water is Federal and the experts in that office are well versed on what you can and can't do. They get paid to help you and if they design the project, you will have no issue with the enforcement people at your state EPA who enforce the various water quality statutes you will be in violation of by proceeding without permits and approvals. It will cost you nothing to visit the local FSA office and ask for guidance. You don't need to be a farmer.

Vermont State Office

[Southside]

They can actually be quite helpful.  My fed water guy one time pointed to an aerial of my farm and said "What you need to do is dig a pond right here" - and he pointed to a spot on the map - "because if that stream breaks the ground between your irrigation pond and it's bank and runs through your pond, there is nothing I can do about that."    Guess what I did?

[chesterspal]

The powers that be also take a dim view of structures that alter or impede the flow of water in a flood plain.

The proposed crossing location is not in a flood plain. The local zoning official verified that (using online maps) and the reason I do not need a permit from the town for the project.

There is no cheap and easy fix to this problem....

Actually there is. If you read through my postings you will find it.

[stavebuyer]

Best of luck with your project. ;D

[chesterspal]

Seems we have run this thread into the ground by this point.

All comments and suggestions were appreciated.

I will report back in the Spring how I made out, in case anyone is still interested.

Thanks much 

[Freedy201]

You are a good man,be proud of yourself.