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Author Topic: have question about timber frame floor system  (Read 2281 times)

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Offline platinumphoenix

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have question about timber frame floor system
« on: September 19, 2022, 01:42:38 AM »
This is my first posting. Hopefully all goes well. If I'm posting in the wrong place let me know. Etc...

I'll keep this summerized because I don't know what info is needed to answer these questions. I'll write a novelette if you let me.

In a nutshell. I bought a plan from timberframehq.com. I realized the frame had no floor so I retrieved a floor blueprint from timberframehq.com
Here are questions
- I feel the floor plan is to small to carry the load of the frame and the walls roof and contents. I tried using the calculators but I don't know the weight of the wattle and daub. How do I go about fixing this?
-Can scarf joints on the sill be below posts? Or do they have to be between posts?
-is it ok to put my timberframe cabin on a pier foundation or a  concrete footing foundation? I'm trying to avoid slab because the location is just on a hills edge. Three foot drop in elevation at 20 foot length.

Thank you for reading.

Offline Don P

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2022, 06:09:17 AM »
Welcome to the forum.
For question 1, wattle and daub is going to be lighter than brick, I'd use masonry weight.
#2 I'm not particular where or if you use a scarf in a sill because
#3 build on a continuous perimeter foundation, piers require engineering and generally by the time that is done correctly, the full perimeter would have been cheaper and stronger.
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Offline firefighter ontheside

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2022, 07:36:14 AM »
Is there no plan review by the local county or city where you will build.  Of course my county has that, but they had little experience with log homes.  There only contribution was that I needed a 24" footing and 10" pour instead of the normal 18" footing and 8" pour.  My log home builder suggested that my 2x10 floor joists be perpendicular to the foundation on all 4 sides to help support the weight of my logs that average about 15" diameter.  After 22 years it is doing just fine.
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Offline Don P

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2022, 07:49:21 AM »
You're lighter than a conventional brick house. Nothing wrong with what they had you do FFOTS, but nothing right about the logic. They looked at "big" logs and didn't think that they actually weigh less per square foot of wall than brick does. 

Quantify the loads
Quantify or make prescriptive assumptions about soil bearing capacity
Put a big enough footing down below frost depth to resist the load without sinking.
The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester

Offline platinumphoenix

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2022, 12:02:41 PM »
Welcome to the forum.
For question 1, wattle and daub is going to be lighter than brick, I'd use masonry weight.
#2 I'm not particular where or if you use a scarf in a sill because
#3 build on a continuous perimeter foundation, piers require engineering and generally by the time that is done correctly, the full perimeter would have been cheaper and stronger.
Thanks. I will choose a continuous perimeter foundation then. I have to do some research to make sure it's properly done.
I'll use masonry weight. I can find the weight for cinder blocks. It seems to me that it would work unless you advise against it.

Offline platinumphoenix

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2022, 12:07:04 PM »
Is there no plan review by the local county or city where you will build.  Of course my county has that, but they had little experience with log homes.  There only contribution was that I needed a 24" footing and 10" pour instead of the normal 18" footing and 8" pour.  My log home builder suggested that my 2x10 floor joists be perpendicular to the foundation on all 4 sides to help support the weight of my logs that average about 15" diameter.  After 22 years it is doing just fine.
Yes I live in the deep woods of South East Missouri. So the laws are minimal. The basic law is, as long as what I do doesn't hurt the woods and wildlife, they don't care. I have never heard of an inspector or anything. And I own my property outright. So unless someone call police I'm not likely to have the government around. My main concern is building the cabin so that it is safe to live in for me.

Offline platinumphoenix

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2022, 12:19:39 PM »
I needed a 24" footing and 10" pour.

After 22 years it is doing just fine.
Bravo on building a sturdy home. I admit I'm nervous since this is my first large structure. And my experience has been in finishing traditional stick build housing and exterior masonry. But I know my limits. So as long as I measure twice and cut once. I'm sure it will come out ok.
Does 24" footing and 10" pour refer to 24"x24" footing with a 10" slab?

Offline firefighter ontheside

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2022, 01:14:39 PM »
I'm not that far from you.  I'm about 30 miles south of Stl.  The county just to the south of me has not building code.  All they have to do there is get an electrical inspection.  The footing is 24" wide but I believe only 10" deep.  They just wanted to it to have a wider foot to distribute the weight.  The foundation walls are 10" thick where standard for framed house is 8".
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Offline platinumphoenix

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2022, 01:35:05 PM »
I can manage that sort of foundation. Thank you. It's good to know I have a friendly neighbor. ;D

Offline Don P

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2022, 07:22:23 PM »
Foundation wall thickness and reinforcement is more about resisting lateral pressure from the soil.

We have designed for 7' of unbalanced fill on the current job, a completely submerged basement. The dirt is 7' higher outside than inside. This requires 12" block with 5/8 rebar in poured cells every 4' along the wall.

Chapter 4 here is your friend;
Digital Codes (iccsafe.org)

I would keep digging for a weight of wattle and daub, you are not the first. Somewhere on a green building forum...

If you do use concrete block remember timberframe collects load to discrete points very often, pour those cells solid under point loads.

Edit;
Well, looks like there is a new chapter in the back of the codebook, cob, I'm just cracking into it, might be helpful;
APPENDIX AR LIGHT STRAW-CLAY CONSTRUCTION, 2021 International Residential Code (IRC) | ICC Digital Codes (iccsafe.org)

It looks like 30lbs/cu ft is not out of line... then how thick is it, check the thermal info in there for more.
The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester

Offline platinumphoenix

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2022, 11:50:46 PM »
Foundation wall thickness and reinforcement is more about resisting lateral pressure from the soil.

We have designed for 7' of unbalanced fill on the current job, a completely submerged basement. The dirt is 7' higher outside than inside. This requires 12" block with 5/8 rebar in poured cells every 4' along the wall.

Chapter 4 here is your friend;
Digital Codes (iccsafe.org)

I would keep digging for a weight of wattle and daub, you are not the first. Somewhere on a green building forum...

If you do use concrete block remember timberframe collects load to discrete points very often, pour those cells solid under point loads.

Edit;
Well, looks like there is a new chapter in the back of the codebook, cob, I'm just cracking into it, might be helpful;
APPENDIX AR LIGHT STRAW-CLAY CONSTRUCTION, 2021 International Residential Code (IRC) | ICC Digital Codes (iccsafe.org)

It looks like 30lbs/cu ft is not out of line... then how thick is it, check the thermal info in there for more.
That all looked like the answers I was looking for. Thank you. If anyone else has anything else to add feel free. Once I update my plan I'd like to have a friend check it lightly for glaring errors. Is there a specific place for that here on the forum?

Offline ljohnsaw

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2022, 01:32:42 AM »
Another option on a foundation.  I used a product called FasWall.  There are a few different manufactures of similar products.  They are blocks made from 85% recycled pallets and 15% Portland cement.  Technically they are considered ICFs.  Mine were 24" long, 8" high and 12" wide.  They come either hollow or ~half filled with rock wool or polyiso.  In my case, every cell (12") vertically a #5 rebar and every other row (16") a #4 stick.  They are mortared to the footing and dry stacked the rest of the way up.  So it goes up pretty fast.  Then you pump in concrete.  Where ever there will be a timber post, you remove the insulation so the entire column is filled with concrete and a special Simpson bracket is embedded in the concrete to anchor the post.

The start

Midway

Details of the blocks and rebar
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Offline Prizl tha Chizl

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2022, 05:13:40 AM »
Well, looks like there is a new chapter in the back of the codebook, cob, I'm just cracking into it, might be helpful;
APPENDIX AR LIGHT STRAW-CLAY CONSTRUCTION, 2021 International Residential Code (IRC) | ICC Digital Codes (iccsafe.org)

It looks like 30lbs/cu ft is not out of line... then how thick is it, check the thermal info in there for more.
Just to clarify, wattle and daub, (woven sticks or lath covered in a mixture of mud, clay, sand, dung, etc.) is not light straw clay, (straw coated with a thin clay slip, packed intro a wall cavity or movable form as insulation and infill.) Light straw clay is a modern wall infill system based on traditional timber infill in France and Germany, and could be used to insulate a wattle and daub wall, however wattle and daub could stand alone with no insulation or be insulated some other way. 
I’d assume wattle and daub to weigh similar to wood lath and plaster, which the Internet is telling me is 10#/sf.
The actual weight of LSC systems varies widely depending on the clay content of your specific mix, and 30#/cf seems heavy to me for a mix that is going to have good r value, but code had to assign something, so probably a safe number to design with.
Never done wattle and daub, but it always looked like fun to me. I’ve worked on a number of LSC projects and happily reside in one of them- warm in winter and cool in summer, quiet to boot. More info here http://www.lightstrawclay.org/
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Offline platinumphoenix

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2022, 08:40:39 PM »
I have the plan finished. I'm looking to post it. I'm not sure where to post it yet, I'll figure it out. I'm going to see if anyone find any major scary flaws in the plan. And I'll keep researching in case there is something in need to factor in I forgot about. The basic set up will be a wrap around footing, no slab, brace and tenon frame, wattle and daub, with an insulated tin roof. All of it ready to be altered if necessary.
The biggest problem I had is figuring out the weight load the concrete can handle. But based on all the components I do know about, I don't see any reason there would be a overload.  Is overload the right word? 🤔🤷

Offline Don P

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2022, 07:24:58 AM »
Post the sketches here, if you would like more eyes. To be honest I'm not sure if I've ever put a plan in the repository  :D.
Concrete is typically good for 3,000-10,000 pounds per square INCH in compressive strength. That is rarely the issue as the soil under it is capable of those loads per square FOOT.
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Offline platinumphoenix

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2022, 10:53:44 AM »
Well ok. Here it goes.

Part of the plan is hand drawn. Part of it is purchased. I have no interest is selling or advertising. I'm not posting the full purchased plan, only three pictures of a ~30 page plan. I believe that's allowed with fair use. If not, please forgive. So if the plan looks incomplete in the future it may have been partly taken down. Please DM me.

The plan is also assumed to be incomplete. So if you want to use it double check EVERYTHING. Assume there are mistakes.

Personally I'd be willing to start building. But I'm not an expert so my opinion (humbly) means nothing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Offline Don P

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2022, 02:14:55 PM »
If this is a foundation and floor question, just a general perspective from the purchased plan is probably a better swap out for those last pics.

On to the foundation and floor.  I could not read the notes on the footing detail?
If this is 10'x20' I'm not following the need for a center girder in the floor?
On the 2nd pic from the top it mentions joists bearing on 2" of concrete. Minimum bearing of treated or naturally decay resistant wood on concrete is 3"... 1-1/2" on wood. But, this floor and foundation is using a good bit more material than necessary, is stick framing the floor an option?
The floor plank detail soared right over me?
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Offline platinumphoenix

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2022, 05:52:31 PM »
If this is a foundation and floor question, just a general perspective from the purchased plan is probably a better swap out for those last pics.

On to the foundation and floor.  I could not read the notes on the footing detail?
If this is 10'x20' I'm not following the need for a center girder in the floor?
On the 2nd pic from the top it mentions joists bearing on 2" of concrete. Minimum bearing of treated or naturally decay resistant wood on concrete is 3"... 1-1/2" on wood. But, this floor and foundation is using a good bit more material than necessary, is stick framing the floor an option?
The floor plank detail soared right over me?
All fair points. I'll look into changing the picture quality. It looked clear on my phone. Guess I lost quality in the upload somehow.
- sorry I'm not understanding the first comment I think. The building frame plan I purchased does not include a floor plan. I had to ask for a floor plan from them. They gave it for free. But I had to resketch it anyway since it wasn't the right dimensions.  I suppose stick built floor is possible. I like to avoid it if I can. I have reasons for not liking stick built, could name a dozen, instantly, if you woke me from a nap. But that's a story for later.
It's a single room 16'x20' cabin. The reason for the center sill and foundation is because (...I live in an extremely tight spot waaaaaaaayy out in the woods. 22 miles of graded road. The last 2 miles is almost a foot path that won't fit a large vehicle without scratches. 45-50min from home to town. If I speed up a bit.
So...) any cut lumber longer then 10' is going to be a bitch to get back. So having the floor in 12-15 pieces  scarf jointed together is about as good as it gets. And I'm not 100% that will work. One thing at time.

The concrete footing is supposed to insure the sill is strong. The joist will be fitted into the sill rather then nailed or set directly to foundation. So the extra concrete lip is just an added security I notice I could get if I adjusted the dimensions.  

I'm not sure how to reduce material any further. Perhaps the foundation. I copied it from firefighter ontheside's description earlier in this post. I figured a timber frame probably won't be near as heavy as a log cabin.

The floor joists will double as the groove portion for slat/groove flooring. Did I explain it well?

I'm only explaining my thought process on these matters. I'm not arguing. If any of these ideas I concluded are still bovine excrement let me know.

Offline Don P

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2022, 08:57:54 PM »
Nope, we're good, I'm a fan of plain speaking. 16' is getting into needing a mid girder I thought I was seeing 10' and was scratching my head. That is only supporting a floor load and the lateral bracing for the building is supplied by the perimeter foundation walls. All that to say a mid girder is typically supported by piers and posts.  I would drop the center girder under the joists in that event. Although the center foundation wall you have drawn is certainly stronger. Make sure you can access and ventilate all of it though. 

8" thick foundation walls is plenty if your joists are bearing on/ in the sills. Trying to pick up 2 bearings on different materials... well, pick one, you won't end up bearing on both. If the heavy timber sill is not treated, I put a treated 2x on the concrete foundation then the untreated 8x8 sill on top of that. 

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Offline ljohnsaw

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2022, 09:00:43 PM »
I figured a timber frame probably won't be near as heavy as a log cabin.
 
Yes, a log built cabin will be heavier than timber frame but what is your snow load?  That will probably preclude the weight of the logs/timbers.  Also, the timer frame will be more point loads on your foundation and footings.  Your 10" thick x 24" wide footings should be sufficient.  I did 12x24 for my timber frame with 340+ pounds/sq-ft snow loads.
John Sawicky

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SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/32" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.


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