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Author Topic: have question about timber frame floor system  (Read 2759 times)

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Offline platinumphoenix

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have question about timber frame floor system
« on: September 19, 2022, 01:42:38 AM »
This is my first posting. Hopefully all goes well. If I'm posting in the wrong place let me know. Etc...

I'll keep this summerized because I don't know what info is needed to answer these questions. I'll write a novelette if you let me.

In a nutshell. I bought a plan from timberframehq.com. I realized the frame had no floor so I retrieved a floor blueprint from timberframehq.com
Here are questions
- I feel the floor plan is to small to carry the load of the frame and the walls roof and contents. I tried using the calculators but I don't know the weight of the wattle and daub. How do I go about fixing this?
-Can scarf joints on the sill be below posts? Or do they have to be between posts?
-is it ok to put my timberframe cabin on a pier foundation or a  concrete footing foundation? I'm trying to avoid slab because the location is just on a hills edge. Three foot drop in elevation at 20 foot length.

Thank you for reading.

Offline Don P

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2022, 06:09:17 AM »
Welcome to the forum.
For question 1, wattle and daub is going to be lighter than brick, I'd use masonry weight.
#2 I'm not particular where or if you use a scarf in a sill because
#3 build on a continuous perimeter foundation, piers require engineering and generally by the time that is done correctly, the full perimeter would have been cheaper and stronger.
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Offline firefighter ontheside

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2022, 07:36:14 AM »
Is there no plan review by the local county or city where you will build.  Of course my county has that, but they had little experience with log homes.  There only contribution was that I needed a 24" footing and 10" pour instead of the normal 18" footing and 8" pour.  My log home builder suggested that my 2x10 floor joists be perpendicular to the foundation on all 4 sides to help support the weight of my logs that average about 15" diameter.  After 22 years it is doing just fine.
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Offline Don P

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2022, 07:49:21 AM »
You're lighter than a conventional brick house. Nothing wrong with what they had you do FFOTS, but nothing right about the logic. They looked at "big" logs and didn't think that they actually weigh less per square foot of wall than brick does. 

Quantify the loads
Quantify or make prescriptive assumptions about soil bearing capacity
Put a big enough footing down below frost depth to resist the load without sinking.
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Offline platinumphoenix

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2022, 12:02:41 PM »
Welcome to the forum.
For question 1, wattle and daub is going to be lighter than brick, I'd use masonry weight.
#2 I'm not particular where or if you use a scarf in a sill because
#3 build on a continuous perimeter foundation, piers require engineering and generally by the time that is done correctly, the full perimeter would have been cheaper and stronger.
Thanks. I will choose a continuous perimeter foundation then. I have to do some research to make sure it's properly done.
I'll use masonry weight. I can find the weight for cinder blocks. It seems to me that it would work unless you advise against it.

Offline platinumphoenix

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2022, 12:07:04 PM »
Is there no plan review by the local county or city where you will build.  Of course my county has that, but they had little experience with log homes.  There only contribution was that I needed a 24" footing and 10" pour instead of the normal 18" footing and 8" pour.  My log home builder suggested that my 2x10 floor joists be perpendicular to the foundation on all 4 sides to help support the weight of my logs that average about 15" diameter.  After 22 years it is doing just fine.
Yes I live in the deep woods of South East Missouri. So the laws are minimal. The basic law is, as long as what I do doesn't hurt the woods and wildlife, they don't care. I have never heard of an inspector or anything. And I own my property outright. So unless someone call police I'm not likely to have the government around. My main concern is building the cabin so that it is safe to live in for me.

Offline platinumphoenix

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2022, 12:19:39 PM »
I needed a 24" footing and 10" pour.

After 22 years it is doing just fine.
Bravo on building a sturdy home. I admit I'm nervous since this is my first large structure. And my experience has been in finishing traditional stick build housing and exterior masonry. But I know my limits. So as long as I measure twice and cut once. I'm sure it will come out ok.
Does 24" footing and 10" pour refer to 24"x24" footing with a 10" slab?

Offline firefighter ontheside

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2022, 01:14:39 PM »
I'm not that far from you.  I'm about 30 miles south of Stl.  The county just to the south of me has not building code.  All they have to do there is get an electrical inspection.  The footing is 24" wide but I believe only 10" deep.  They just wanted to it to have a wider foot to distribute the weight.  The foundation walls are 10" thick where standard for framed house is 8".
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Offline platinumphoenix

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2022, 01:35:05 PM »
I can manage that sort of foundation. Thank you. It's good to know I have a friendly neighbor. ;D

Offline Don P

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2022, 07:22:23 PM »
Foundation wall thickness and reinforcement is more about resisting lateral pressure from the soil.

We have designed for 7' of unbalanced fill on the current job, a completely submerged basement. The dirt is 7' higher outside than inside. This requires 12" block with 5/8 rebar in poured cells every 4' along the wall.

Chapter 4 here is your friend;
Digital Codes (iccsafe.org)

I would keep digging for a weight of wattle and daub, you are not the first. Somewhere on a green building forum...

If you do use concrete block remember timberframe collects load to discrete points very often, pour those cells solid under point loads.

Edit;
Well, looks like there is a new chapter in the back of the codebook, cob, I'm just cracking into it, might be helpful;
APPENDIX AR LIGHT STRAW-CLAY CONSTRUCTION, 2021 International Residential Code (IRC) | ICC Digital Codes (iccsafe.org)

It looks like 30lbs/cu ft is not out of line... then how thick is it, check the thermal info in there for more.
The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester

Offline platinumphoenix

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2022, 11:50:46 PM »
Foundation wall thickness and reinforcement is more about resisting lateral pressure from the soil.

We have designed for 7' of unbalanced fill on the current job, a completely submerged basement. The dirt is 7' higher outside than inside. This requires 12" block with 5/8 rebar in poured cells every 4' along the wall.

Chapter 4 here is your friend;
Digital Codes (iccsafe.org)

I would keep digging for a weight of wattle and daub, you are not the first. Somewhere on a green building forum...

If you do use concrete block remember timberframe collects load to discrete points very often, pour those cells solid under point loads.

Edit;
Well, looks like there is a new chapter in the back of the codebook, cob, I'm just cracking into it, might be helpful;
APPENDIX AR LIGHT STRAW-CLAY CONSTRUCTION, 2021 International Residential Code (IRC) | ICC Digital Codes (iccsafe.org)

It looks like 30lbs/cu ft is not out of line... then how thick is it, check the thermal info in there for more.
That all looked like the answers I was looking for. Thank you. If anyone else has anything else to add feel free. Once I update my plan I'd like to have a friend check it lightly for glaring errors. Is there a specific place for that here on the forum?

Online ljohnsaw

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2022, 01:32:42 AM »
Another option on a foundation.  I used a product called FasWall.  There are a few different manufactures of similar products.  They are blocks made from 85% recycled pallets and 15% Portland cement.  Technically they are considered ICFs.  Mine were 24" long, 8" high and 12" wide.  They come either hollow or ~half filled with rock wool or polyiso.  In my case, every cell (12") vertically a #5 rebar and every other row (16") a #4 stick.  They are mortared to the footing and dry stacked the rest of the way up.  So it goes up pretty fast.  Then you pump in concrete.  Where ever there will be a timber post, you remove the insulation so the entire column is filled with concrete and a special Simpson bracket is embedded in the concrete to anchor the post.

The start

Midway

Details of the blocks and rebar
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Offline Prizl tha Chizl

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2022, 05:13:40 AM »
Well, looks like there is a new chapter in the back of the codebook, cob, I'm just cracking into it, might be helpful;
APPENDIX AR LIGHT STRAW-CLAY CONSTRUCTION, 2021 International Residential Code (IRC) | ICC Digital Codes (iccsafe.org)

It looks like 30lbs/cu ft is not out of line... then how thick is it, check the thermal info in there for more.
Just to clarify, wattle and daub, (woven sticks or lath covered in a mixture of mud, clay, sand, dung, etc.) is not light straw clay, (straw coated with a thin clay slip, packed intro a wall cavity or movable form as insulation and infill.) Light straw clay is a modern wall infill system based on traditional timber infill in France and Germany, and could be used to insulate a wattle and daub wall, however wattle and daub could stand alone with no insulation or be insulated some other way. 
I’d assume wattle and daub to weigh similar to wood lath and plaster, which the Internet is telling me is 10#/sf.
The actual weight of LSC systems varies widely depending on the clay content of your specific mix, and 30#/cf seems heavy to me for a mix that is going to have good r value, but code had to assign something, so probably a safe number to design with.
Never done wattle and daub, but it always looked like fun to me. I’ve worked on a number of LSC projects and happily reside in one of them- warm in winter and cool in summer, quiet to boot. More info here http://www.lightstrawclay.org/
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Offline platinumphoenix

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2022, 08:40:39 PM »
I have the plan finished. I'm looking to post it. I'm not sure where to post it yet, I'll figure it out. I'm going to see if anyone find any major scary flaws in the plan. And I'll keep researching in case there is something in need to factor in I forgot about. The basic set up will be a wrap around footing, no slab, brace and tenon frame, wattle and daub, with an insulated tin roof. All of it ready to be altered if necessary.
The biggest problem I had is figuring out the weight load the concrete can handle. But based on all the components I do know about, I don't see any reason there would be a overload.  Is overload the right word? 🤔🤷

Offline Don P

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2022, 07:24:58 AM »
Post the sketches here, if you would like more eyes. To be honest I'm not sure if I've ever put a plan in the repository  :D.
Concrete is typically good for 3,000-10,000 pounds per square INCH in compressive strength. That is rarely the issue as the soil under it is capable of those loads per square FOOT.
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Offline platinumphoenix

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2022, 10:53:44 AM »
Well ok. Here it goes.

Part of the plan is hand drawn. Part of it is purchased. I have no interest is selling or advertising. I'm not posting the full purchased plan, only three pictures of a ~30 page plan. I believe that's allowed with fair use. If not, please forgive. So if the plan looks incomplete in the future it may have been partly taken down. Please DM me.

The plan is also assumed to be incomplete. So if you want to use it double check EVERYTHING. Assume there are mistakes.

Personally I'd be willing to start building. But I'm not an expert so my opinion (humbly) means nothing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Offline Don P

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2022, 02:14:55 PM »
If this is a foundation and floor question, just a general perspective from the purchased plan is probably a better swap out for those last pics.

On to the foundation and floor.  I could not read the notes on the footing detail?
If this is 10'x20' I'm not following the need for a center girder in the floor?
On the 2nd pic from the top it mentions joists bearing on 2" of concrete. Minimum bearing of treated or naturally decay resistant wood on concrete is 3"... 1-1/2" on wood. But, this floor and foundation is using a good bit more material than necessary, is stick framing the floor an option?
The floor plank detail soared right over me?
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Offline platinumphoenix

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2022, 05:52:31 PM »
If this is a foundation and floor question, just a general perspective from the purchased plan is probably a better swap out for those last pics.

On to the foundation and floor.  I could not read the notes on the footing detail?
If this is 10'x20' I'm not following the need for a center girder in the floor?
On the 2nd pic from the top it mentions joists bearing on 2" of concrete. Minimum bearing of treated or naturally decay resistant wood on concrete is 3"... 1-1/2" on wood. But, this floor and foundation is using a good bit more material than necessary, is stick framing the floor an option?
The floor plank detail soared right over me?
All fair points. I'll look into changing the picture quality. It looked clear on my phone. Guess I lost quality in the upload somehow.
- sorry I'm not understanding the first comment I think. The building frame plan I purchased does not include a floor plan. I had to ask for a floor plan from them. They gave it for free. But I had to resketch it anyway since it wasn't the right dimensions.  I suppose stick built floor is possible. I like to avoid it if I can. I have reasons for not liking stick built, could name a dozen, instantly, if you woke me from a nap. But that's a story for later.
It's a single room 16'x20' cabin. The reason for the center sill and foundation is because (...I live in an extremely tight spot waaaaaaaayy out in the woods. 22 miles of graded road. The last 2 miles is almost a foot path that won't fit a large vehicle without scratches. 45-50min from home to town. If I speed up a bit.
So...) any cut lumber longer then 10' is going to be a bitch to get back. So having the floor in 12-15 pieces  scarf jointed together is about as good as it gets. And I'm not 100% that will work. One thing at time.

The concrete footing is supposed to insure the sill is strong. The joist will be fitted into the sill rather then nailed or set directly to foundation. So the extra concrete lip is just an added security I notice I could get if I adjusted the dimensions.  

I'm not sure how to reduce material any further. Perhaps the foundation. I copied it from firefighter ontheside's description earlier in this post. I figured a timber frame probably won't be near as heavy as a log cabin.

The floor joists will double as the groove portion for slat/groove flooring. Did I explain it well?

I'm only explaining my thought process on these matters. I'm not arguing. If any of these ideas I concluded are still bovine excrement let me know.

Offline Don P

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2022, 08:57:54 PM »
Nope, we're good, I'm a fan of plain speaking. 16' is getting into needing a mid girder I thought I was seeing 10' and was scratching my head. That is only supporting a floor load and the lateral bracing for the building is supplied by the perimeter foundation walls. All that to say a mid girder is typically supported by piers and posts.  I would drop the center girder under the joists in that event. Although the center foundation wall you have drawn is certainly stronger. Make sure you can access and ventilate all of it though. 

8" thick foundation walls is plenty if your joists are bearing on/ in the sills. Trying to pick up 2 bearings on different materials... well, pick one, you won't end up bearing on both. If the heavy timber sill is not treated, I put a treated 2x on the concrete foundation then the untreated 8x8 sill on top of that. 

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2022, 09:00:43 PM »
I figured a timber frame probably won't be near as heavy as a log cabin.
 
Yes, a log built cabin will be heavier than timber frame but what is your snow load?  That will probably preclude the weight of the logs/timbers.  Also, the timer frame will be more point loads on your foundation and footings.  Your 10" thick x 24" wide footings should be sufficient.  I did 12x24 for my timber frame with 340+ pounds/sq-ft snow loads.
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Offline platinumphoenix

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2022, 09:44:25 AM »
Nope, we're good, I'm a fan of plain speaking. 16' is getting into needing a mid girder I thought I was seeing 10' and was scratching my head. That is only supporting a floor load and the lateral bracing for the building is supplied by the perimeter foundation walls. All that to say a mid girder is typically supported by piers and posts.  I would drop the center girder under the joists in that event. Although the center foundation wall you have drawn is certainly stronger. Make sure you can access and ventilate all of it though.

8" thick foundation walls is plenty if your joists are bearing on/ in the sills. Trying to pick up 2 bearings on different materials... well, pick one, you won't end up bearing on both. If the heavy timber sill is not treated, I put a treated 2x on the concrete foundation then the untreated 8x8 sill on top of that.
Thanks you. I think two pier posts should support the mid girder just fine. I'll make the post 8x8 similar to the floor frame. A simple grate vent for ventilation. I'm not sure why I should access the crawl space since there won't be any pipes or wire down there. I could keep a two foot crawl space opening at the lowest part of the tallest footing wall. I don't think that would compromise the strength of structure.
I can put a 2x8 between the foundation and sill. Sounds good to me.
"Trying to pick up 2 bearings on different materials... well, pick one, you won't end up bearing on both." - I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you referring to the 2inch concrete lip I had planned into the foundation? If so, then this makes sense. But I take your advice and go to pier anyway.

Correction. At least one grate vent for each wall. So, 4.

Offline platinumphoenix

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2022, 09:47:56 AM »
I estimated snow load at 30lb. I'm getting the feeling that number is seriously flawed. But I also got the feeling snow load won't be an issue.

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2022, 10:36:17 PM »
It sounds like the clear span of the center girder between piers is ~6' x half the building width, 8'=48 square feet of floor load on the sections of midpan girder between piers. Figure 50 lbs per square foot x 48 sf= 2400 lbs uniformly distributed load. You can check your beam against that load. The perimeter sills are fully supported so no beam check needed there. Yes those are carrying the snow load so probably not a concern unless you are in a high snow load area. This should take you to current data for your location;
ASCE 7 Hazard Tool

Crawlspaces need to be either completely sealed and mechanically conditioned or built dry and well ventilated. Cool and dank is rot. From the stepping drainage around the footing in washed rock, parge and tar the foundation below grade and take the drains out to daylight downhill. Inside the crawlspace remove anything organic, bugs smell from decay. Make access to everywhere for inspection later. Grade the soil to drain with no pooling spots. Cover that with at least 6 mil plastic to keep soil moisture out of the air under there. Under this house I poured a thin ~2-3" thick slab over gravel and plastic with a drain out. There is no floor load to speak of the slab has me on my knees for load but it is a dry sealed floor. Your 2x2 access is minimal, the 8x sill can easily span that. Our water heater lives under there. And they got bigger by the thickness of more insulation, I barely got it in through my access door that was large enough for the original. The main goal is make it accessible everywhere under there and keep it dry.
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Offline platinumphoenix

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2022, 09:41:47 PM »
It sounds like the clear span of the center girder between piers is ~6' x half the building width, 8'=48 square feet of floor load on the sections of midpan girder between piers. Figure 50 lbs per square foot x 48 sf= 2400 lbs uniformly distributed load. You can check your beam against that load. The perimeter sills are fully supported so no beam check needed there. Yes those are carrying the snow load so probably not a concern unless you are in a high snow load area. This should take you to current data for your location;
ASCE 7 Hazard Tool

Crawlspaces need to be either completely sealed and mechanically conditioned or built dry and well ventilated. Cool and dank is rot. From the stepping drainage around the footing in washed rock, parge and tar the foundation below grade and take the drains out to daylight downhill. Inside the crawlspace remove anything organic, bugs smell from decay. Make access to everywhere for inspection later. Grade the soil to drain with no pooling spots. Cover that with at least 6 mil plastic to keep soil moisture out of the air under there. Under this house I poured a thin ~2-3" thick slab over gravel and plastic with a drain out. There is no floor load to speak of the slab has me on my knees for load but it is a dry sealed floor. Your 2x2 access is minimal, the 8x sill can easily span that. Our water heater lives under there. And they got bigger by the thickness of more insulation, I barely got it in through my access door that was large enough for the original. The main goal is make it accessible everywhere under there and keep it dry.
I heard all that. I'm off to the drawing board to build a better foundation. I'll be back soon.
In the mean time. Cats rule! Dogs drool!
Meet my sweetheart kitten Tea-Lilly. Born July 23rd.


 

 

 

Offline Don P

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2022, 04:17:39 AM »
I'm sitting here with an old pup that wanted to get up at 3 am, for whatever reason. He's back out, I'm up. Critters rule the roost :D.
One thing I forgot the other day, look beneath the center post in your previous sketch, it is over a step in the footing. not a big deal but if the post can be over a level section  it would be better to be away from a stress concentration.
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Offline TN King

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2022, 11:53:23 AM »
Observing the discussions. We're working on plans to build two Timberframe homes. One for the wife and I and one for our Son and daughter in-law. 
Your plans and modifications look pretty good thus far. Good job. 
TN Treeing Walker Hounds keep critters at bay around here.
 

 
Timberking 2020 - Mahindra 3550PST - Titan implements -
1840's two story log home - 50x60 log pole barn with 6 stalls - Trout pond - Hardwood timber stands - fruit trees - natural springs and lots of wildlife.

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2022, 02:31:08 PM »
Is anyone going to have a heart attack if I put the house on a shallow pad pillar foundation?

As long as the pads and pillars are thick enough and numerous enough. I have the tools to pull out and replace a pillar. Seeing as I already have a 15x10 shed (stuffed full of heavy things) on blocks for the last two years with no sign of sagging or damage. it doesn't look to be a HUGE problem.

Poured concrete and filled concrete blocks is looking less achievable by the minute. Expensive.  I can almost guarantee I have the lowest income of the group. I'm starting to feel discouraged I confess.

I wanna put a timber frame on pad foundation. ROAST ME!

Offline Don P

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2022, 03:10:36 PM »
Your call, if shallower than frost depth quite a risk. Trace the loads down the piers. You will lose a lot of lateral stability, consider at least wall sections in the corners. Technically engineer required.

This is rubble stone outside the door, lick and stick on block inside.


 

I just set up forms for the next section. I do stone up front and rubble/concrete to the form in the back

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Offline platinumphoenix

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2022, 04:52:54 PM »
I just set up forms for the next section. I do stone up front and rubble/concrete to the form in the back
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

I was told I couldn't pour the foundation in sections. Is that what's happening here? Is there a specific method?
Could you expand on what you mean by wall sections in the corners? It seems simple. But I googled and came up short. Just want to make sure.

Offline Prizl tha Chizl

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2022, 09:03:41 PM »
“I can almost guarantee I have the lowest income of the group.”

I’m sure lots of folks here understand what it is to live and work on a budget, and can understand why a person would make compromises to match their means. But the way I was taught it, you’ve got the triad; Built “Right, Quick, and Cheap,” you can only pick two out of the three.

Countless old cabins, sheds, granaries and more have been built on foundations that amounted to little more than piles of rocks. Many of them lasted a lifetime or more, but very few had level floors for long, or doors and windows that didn’t stick and squeak or let in a draft, or both. It was a part of the price paid when building within the means a serf or settler had.

If you don’t have the money, but have the time, I might think about the best way I could get something solid below the frost line. Rubble trenches with drainage and a bond beam are an other idea that has been “floated.” If you’ve got neither money or time, do the best you can with the compromises and accept the inevitable consequences-nature doesn’t take sympathy on the impoverished-but I’m pretty sure no one’s going to roast you here, you’re the one that’s got to live in it and it looks like everyone else has their own story deal with.
“The Woods Is My Church”

Offline Don P

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2022, 09:42:43 PM »
Well said.

What we are doing there falls under the rubblestone rules in the masonry foundation walls section of the IRC, chapter 4. This method is stronger than what they are describing but it is not for seismic areas. Also from that section we designed the main basement reinforced block walls, which were built in sections over the course of a year. I'm not aware of anything in the accompanying concrete foundation wall section stipulating that a basement has to be poured monolithically, did the inspector give you a cite for that?

When the big sail on top of a pier tries to move horizontally, piers tend to slide or overturn. If the corners are lengths of wall in each direction at least as long as they are tall, with intermediate piers as needed down the wall. Those corners will do much to stabilize the building. i've seen it enough to say you will probably regret this approach as time goes on vs a conventional foundation.
The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester

Offline platinumphoenix

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2022, 10:26:56 AM »
Yes I agree to all this. Another scale I live by is convenience vs effort. There's a lot of things on the farm I do the old way, requiring more effort and skill, because doing the task the easy convenient way is too expensive. I don't buy pellets for my chickens for instance, unless I run out of the food I grew and store for them mid-winter. I occasionally have skinny chickens come spring. But otherwise it works out fine.

So if there's a easy cheaper way to build the foundation. But it requires regular maintenance and repair. I'm totally ok with that. This is the only reason I was thinking of shallow foundations. But I haven't researched the recent suggestions yet. I'll go do that now.

Offline Prizl tha Chizl

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2022, 02:08:04 PM »
Not easier, but while you’re researching, slip form masonry is a way to save on cement and form material, and makes the pours more manageable for a crew of one. https://www.motherearthnews.com/diy/stone-masonry-primer-zmaz96djzgoe/
I imagine you’d still want to follow the guidelines outlined in DonP masonry code, but if you’ve got rocks in Missouri you can probably get away with using a little more than half the cement you would in a regular poured wall.
I’ve been working on these since I was washing rocks at for years old, they work!
“The Woods Is My Church”

Offline beenthere

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2022, 02:52:45 PM »
Pictures of the process you have used and the results would be great to see. Pls.   ;)
south central Wisconsin
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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2022, 05:17:02 PM »
OMG! Slipform looks like the answer. I can do it in reasonable sections. I have free rock everywhere here. I drop the price of concrete by half. I'm going to research this. This just might work. So cool! Now I can finish up my plan revision.

Offline Don P

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2022, 06:44:22 PM »
Anything by Scott and Helen Nearing on that method would be good. They kind of hammered out the details in the 70's and wrote extensively for Mother Earth.

Both slipformed and what we are doing, I guess "back formed", are really just modifications of the oldest roman "opus incertum", probably worth a quick google there as well for background.
The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester

Offline Prizl tha Chizl

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2022, 02:39:53 AM »
Pictures of the process you have used and the results would be great to see. Pls.   ;)
Sorry, all before I went digital📸, but I do have a pretty good section of  barn wall to redo in the next couple few years and that will certainly end up on here. Karl and Sue Schwenke also wrote an “updated” version, (second edition 1991) that’s a pretty thorough guide. 
Warning- slip form masonry is a LOT of hard work. The savings in cement is real, however if you’re buying sand and gravel it certainly narrows the margin. It’s waaay cheaper though than a poured wall with veneer, and if done well can look much better. I like it because I can use my own rocks and sand, I can build at the pace I want to without having to talk five friends into helping with a grueling pour, and I don’t have to worry about how to get the concrete truck to the building site.
“The Woods Is My Church”

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2022, 04:42:29 PM »
Thank you again. Yes I really can only use quickrete or equevelant. Well maybe I can mix my own? I'm not sure it would be worth the trouble or cheaper with gas/distance/new equipment factored in. There only seems to be a .50-1.00 difference.

In other news. Mother-cat Maze brought her baby Tea-Lily 2 mice last night. So I didn't get much sleep. With the two of them thumping growling and such. And thankfully Tea-Lily actually eats the whole mouse. Maze just eats the head and leaves the rest with me. Right on my bed. Yuck!

Offline beenthere

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2022, 08:04:30 PM »
Platinum
You have a problem there that I wouldn't have..   :D :D
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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2022, 06:42:29 PM »
 

 

 

 

I only posted chat that were changed. Here the updates with the changes that were suggested. I'm not sure if the fire place foundation should be separate or attached to the main foundation. The door and windows are smaller then expected. They will be screened and shuttered. I'm not likely to use glass. Since they will be shuttered when cold to retain heat. And opened for airflow in the summer. I don't usually stay up and around when it's dark out anyway. And I'm working outside most the day. Even in my old city apartment i didn't use much light except open windows. The wattle posts won't be especially heavy compared to the main support posts. Those only need to support the wattle frame. Well? What do you think?

Offline Don P

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2022, 07:10:08 PM »
I would just taper the footing trench from 8" thick to 12" thick in the fireplace corner. 
Make that hearth extend up through the floor and a minimum of 18" on all sides of the heating appliance minimum. Then your foundation below the floor extends out underfloor enough to provide a minimum of a 3" wide ledge to catch the floor joists.


The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester

Offline platinumphoenix

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2022, 04:32:06 PM »
I would just taper the footing trench from 8" thick to 12" thick in the fireplace corner.
Make that hearth extend up through the floor and a minimum of 18" on all sides of the heating appliance minimum. Then your foundation below the floor extends out underfloor enough to provide a minimum of a 3" wide ledge to catch the floor joist
I'm not sure what you mean with the footing trench. Can you explain more? Maybe a drawing?

Offline Don P

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2022, 09:35:22 PM »
The footing is in gray. It is 8" x 24" and tapers to 12" thick under the hearth area.

The rubblestone walls are 16" thick. The hearth extends to the top of finished floor level, or above. Surrounded by ledges to catch exterior walls and floor joists.



 
The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester

Offline platinumphoenix

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2022, 10:38:24 PM »
Now that makes perfect sense. I don't know why I wasn't getting it. So the footing remains 24" wide, but becomes 24"x12" under the entire fire place foundation.

I originally planned to make the foundation walls 10" thick. Is there any reason they need to be 16"?

I just realized I didn't put dimensions on my updated sketches. ::)

Offline Don P

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2022, 06:47:36 AM »
The footing becomes 12" thick under the entire fireplace area. 16" thick is a "rubble stone" wall in the building code, random, uncoursed masonry. That is the approval I seek with the inspectors. On exempt work I've done 12" slipform with no problems. For perspective while you form and stack... castle walls were up to 12' thick  :).
The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester

Offline Prizl tha Chizl

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #45 on: October 30, 2022, 12:58:28 PM »
Thank you again. Yes I really can only use quickrete or equevelant. Well maybe I can mix my own? I'm not sure it would be worth the trouble or cheaper with gas/distance/new equipment factored in. There only seems to be a .50-1.00 difference.
Where I live one yard of sackcrete (about ninety 40 lb bags) costs about the same as the three yard minimum order from the ready mix plant. But if you mix it from scratch you only need five and a half 80 lb sacks of Portland cement, about 1/6 of the price, but have to come up with the sand, gravel, and rocks on your own.
 Grandpa would scoop his out of the Arkansas creek bed after the spring rains washed it for him. We’ve got that nice silica fracksand in our hillside, but I’ve got to buy the gravel. Either way, that rubble or slip form foundation, while wider, better looking, and probably stronger, is likely close to half rock and rubble, the rest being the sand, gravel and Portland component. You can either buy a mixer and do it yourself, or order it, but keep in mind that you can only stack the stone and rubble portion a couple feet at best before you pour. IF your local concrete supplier is willing, you can sometimes get them to deliver a couple of yards at a time in their off hours, (not easy here the way the building has been going,) but still you’re probably going to want help to pull it off well, concrete is heavy and they want to get it out of their truck and move on to their next job, not wait around while your gGetting your systems figured out.
For these reasons, if I’m mixing less than a yard for someone else I usually buy the bag mix, but at home I always do it from scratch, with the exception of our one slab, which is hard to mix in batches and get smooth at the same time.
“The Woods Is My Church”

Offline platinumphoenix

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2022, 04:42:16 PM »
Ok. It looks like I'm ready to do this project.  8) Thank you all. Should I update build progress here? Or is there a better thread for that?

Offline Don P

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #47 on: October 30, 2022, 05:40:56 PM »
Keep updating here, I'm old and easily confused!
I don't know about y'all but it drives me nuts when someone opens 15 threads for an outhouse  :D.

Yes, a pallet is 42 80 lb sacks and is roughly a cubic yard. I think an 80 is 2/3 of a cu ft.
The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester

Offline Prizl tha Chizl

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #48 on: October 30, 2022, 11:05:55 PM »
“Yes, a pallet is 42 80 lb sacks and is roughly a cubic yard. I think an 80 is 2/3 of a cu ft.”

I like the smaller 40 lb bags of sack Crete cuz they’re easier to get in the mixer, but when I’m making my own up I buy the 80 lb sacks of Portland, and dump them in a wood box that I can easily measure out of.

More importantly for your planning, I find that mixing and pouring a yard of concrete either way in a three bag mixer to be a pretty good days work for a crew of two. One person might stop a little shy of half of that much.

At home I’ve only used 12” walls, with the exception of under our masonry heater. Either way DonP historical perspective just made this all sound so much easier! (of course they had the serfs to lean on, all we could ever dream up were interns and they sounded like they were more trouble than they were worth)
:D
“The Woods Is My Church”

Offline Don P

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Re: have question about timber frame floor system
« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2022, 06:12:12 AM »
Whoops, Portland cement is a 94 lb bag, which happens to be one cubic foot. For mixer proportioning I'll split that bag up into 2 buckets and then proportion my aggregates around that. If you have help have the rocks ready, otherwise the help mixes more mud than packing rock. I suspect on the old castle crew if you wasted mud you were interning on the quicklime burning crew the next day  :D

A retired old mason was describing his first boss the other day. He had come up during hard times. At the end of one commercial brick job the boss asked him to clean up the mud around the foot of the walls. He said you could have fit all he dropped on one trowel  :).
The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester


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