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Timbco 415ex??

Started by Firewoodjoe, July 24, 2021, 12:09:38 PM

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Firewoodjoe


chevytaHOE5674

If you want a tracked carrier it would be worth a look assuming the hours are correct? 2000 hours in 19 years seems suspicious......

I'd much rather buy a machine right from the woods or field any day over something sitting on a lot.

Firewoodjoe

That's why I had the 🙄 face. More like 22,000 hours. Most dangle heads and or rubber tire machines are junk around here. Everyone tells me to get a fabtek head due to simplicity and toughness for hardwood and a track machine. Only guys running rubber tired keep new machines. That's a 2010 head and I see no welds in the pictures at least. And yes says working daily. 🤷🏼‍♂️

barbender

The meter says 20,135 hours.
Too many irons in the fire

Firewoodjoe

🤦‍♂️ I just glanced at that when I seen they put 2000 in the hour description. But I figured anyways. 

chevytaHOE5674

20k hours makes more sense.

Funny there isn't a Fabtek head left running that i can think of UP here. The ones that used to be around were all busted up, welded, and destroyed cutting hardwood all the time.

The one I ran couldn't handle our hardwood at all compared to a Rolly 2 or Ponsse dangle head.

Firewoodjoe

Yes the H8's and waratahs are the go to now. But a lot of 501 cats still out there! But all the smaller guys still run fabtek. From old Deere conversion machines up to the cat. 

Firewoodjoe

I think the reason is dealer support. That's what we have here. A few Barkos and timberpros further north. I've only heard of one Rolly head. They hated it.

mike_belben

Quote from: barbender on July 25, 2021, 05:23:29 PM... The only reason they can make it is they have "grown old together" in a manner of speaking, and they know them inside out and all of the machines quirks. If you tried jumping in one of those as your first harvester, I just don't think you're going to make it. If you you can't afford at least a $250K dollar harvester, you can't afford a harvester at all is how I look at it.
I think we are beating around different sides of the same bush. If the machine price and maintenance price and the fuel price and labor price continually rise, and the wood price really still averages out to what its been for decades once this bubble runs its course.. Then the gap between what it costs and what it pays keeps getting wider.  


If those lines continue to diverge, (like trucking for the same rates as 1990 but in $200k trucks instead of $100k) at some point new CTL equipment will only be economically viable to entrants who already have the money and do not need to run the machine every day to pay for it.


So what i am saying is just like the growing old with a brand new 6NZ powered 379 ship has sailed, maybe that era is coming into its twilight for little guys growing old with new CTL equipment too.  


We always discuss CTL within the confines of go new or go old.  But never going not at all.  I am certain there are loggers out there who will be run aground by either side of the CTL coin.  The ones with shallow pockets, spotty cashflow, shoddy wood, poor market connections, no trucking and lack of mechanical skills should just stay away from CTL.  


No one ever says dont do it. Someone ought to remind once in a while that its a viable option,  and perhaps the best one in some circumstances.
Praise The Lord

chevytaHOE5674

The difference in CTL equipment and the OTR trucks in your example Mike is that say a 2000 OTR truck is basic and parts are available both OEM and aftermarket. If you have a vin number you can build a "new" truck from a catalog.

A piece of 2000 CTL is full of proprietary  antiquated, outdated, and obsolete computers and sensors. So unless you are able and want to re engineer the entire computer system you maybe SOL keeping it running. There isn't a large enough market for an aftermarket to grow into supporting the old machines.

For reference Peterbilt produced 42,000 trucks in 2019 and Freightliner over 100,000. Ponsse has build just over 15,000 machines since 1971. There's a reason the OTR truck market has a huge parts and service support.

Firewoodjoe

I CTL now. But not mechanically. That's where the harvester comes in. And a conventional crew of new equipment isn't much cheaper in the long run. Actually more money in some cases. The problem with mechanical ctl is the harvester is a much more complex machine than anything else. So condition definitely comes into play. But what I struggle with is if it's tight and right (good condition) then it's good as low hour machine. Except for the possible obsolete parts. A older machine with a fabtek head is just like a slasher. Engine pumps, saw and house bearing. Many and I mean many of those old slashers swing a lot of wood with 30-40,000 hours. That's where I start to look for the reason people say they are a headache if high hour. Everything has the same basic components. Yet a old harvester gets a bad wrap. Not saying anyone is wrong at all.

I'm pretty sure a older track machine has a mechanical engine and a fabtek head has one encoder wheel to measure lengths. That's it. 

Southside

I can see both sides of the coin, but like Mike said - the coin doesn't go very far these days, and for the little guy it sure seems like you are just financing your occupation.  It's getting harder and harder to find any help, let alone someone you can put into a $500K machine.  It's the same in every industry - today a new JD X Series combine will set you back $1.3 million - all you so can harvest $8.00 beans....
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

mike_belben

I type out CTL just to save myself some typing.  What i mean is a harvester with a processor head and the onboard computer measuring systems. 


I came to a point in cylinder heads where i was charging and getting good money and backed up pretty far.  Came to a valve seat bottleneck. When i priced a brand new CNC seat and guide machine fully tooled and delivered, the math looked like another decade of slaving to pay it off.  And if it croaked, being in hot water.  I did not have the money and did not know if i could make the money to pay for it.  Id be "passing the bill to see whats inside" as nancy would say.  Jumping out of the plane to see if the parachute worked.  Pulling the trigger to figure out if the gun was loaded.  These are all suicide. 

I made the decision to start weaning out of that business since i could not possibly train help.. Soon as you train a guy they just open up shop across town. 


Scaling back freed me up to manufacture something else that came along and was extremely profitable for 8 years and then a good sale price on the whole business at the end.  I had a good exit from a bad business. 

I know its not forestry but thats the basis that im reasoning from.  If bought cash and you get hurt you only lose the machine.  But collateralized debt booboos can leave a man homeless. Atleast as an employee all you can lose is your job.  You cant walk away from the noose if you pledge a home to get into it. 
Praise The Lord

mike_belben

Quote from: Southside on July 25, 2021, 10:03:20 PM- today a new JD X Series combine will set you back $1.3 million - all you so can harvest $8.00 beans....
How many hours on the machine when you pay that off at $8 a bushel?  And how many hours are left in it to pay you for the lost opportunity cost of the years it ate all the proceeds?  


If the answer to part 2 is "not many" then its smarter to run someone elses machine, punch out at 5 and pocket every check. 
Praise The Lord

chevytaHOE5674

Slasher live a pretty "easy" life sitting on the landing swinging wood all day. No mud, rocks, trees smashing on top of it, trees are all cut and limbed so they are easy to move, etc.

A CTL machine removing 4 to 6" hardwood limbs by nothing but brute ramming force is a lot of stress on steel. The frame, boom, pins, bushings, cylinders, etc take an incredible amount of load everytime you smack into a limb. 

barbender

Everyone is raising a lot of good points here. I don't know much about the Fabtek/Cat 501 machines, other than they were supposed to be simpler. I have heard of the heads busting up pretty bad. Look back at Corley's experience. He went from, "think I'm going to jump into this, never thought I would" when he got into I think it was a Fabtek. I think I remember a few breakdowns where he was like, "what have I done?!" I would say remove any similarity in your mind between a processor and a slasher loader.
Too many irons in the fire

Firewoodjoe

I understand there's differences. But we ran a delimber also so that was the same. And 4-6" limbs ramming the head back and forth is why those heads are all broke up. I'm not considering one all broke up. The two with fabtek heads I'm looking at have almost no welds. And look at the used parts for timbcos advertised. Also there not "timbco" there many manufacturers combined to make a machine. Even the fabteks. Deere engines cat bottoms. Pumps and valves are of hydraulic manufacturers not the machine manufacturer. And the 133s have a smaller bottom. I don't know 🤷🏼‍♂️ When I look at a machine that's what matter to me. Then I spend some time running it and that's the 2nd point that matters. I would never buy anything based on what a meter says hours/miles. When I ask on here about a machine I want to know if anyone has heard of problems or obsolete items. There's a wealth of knowledge here. 

nativewolf

I don't know what to say about the fabtek heads.  Obviously that machine has some hours, did it always have that head?  If so it obviously did not cause a lot of shutdowns.  

Might be hard to do but I'd look up some fabtek operators up there that have high hour machines and find out, specifically, the fail points in the head and what to do/not to do.

Corley is not the only person with bad experiences with fabtek heads and that's one of the reasons I think you see mostly a big three of Komatsu, JD, and Ponsse.  If Cat can't push a system out into the woods there is a reason, and Cat made some good skidders.  With fabtek I don't think it was the case of not enough marketing and sales investment like what seemed to happen with Rottne.  I have never heard of any issues with Rottne just that they dont' have the dealer support that jd/komatsu/ponsse had in the NA market.  Fabtek had that and still failed.  

Liking Walnut

Firewoodjoe

I know several with the fabtek style head. Talk to two last night. The problem with that head is the way it opens and holds wood. It's not bad it's just there's better options out there. But no option as simple. One guys is very rough shape and supposedly cuts 150-200 cord a week. Another guy I know is a old hand cutter and don't run it often. Says he's just not good with it. I think it's old dog new tricks kind of thing. That head was and is very popular. 

Firewoodjoe


mike_belben

Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on July 25, 2021, 09:40:20 PM
The difference in CTL equipment and the OTR trucks in your example Mike is that say a 2000 OTR truck is basic and parts are available both OEM and aftermarket. If you have a vin number you can build a "new" truck from a catalog.

A piece of 2000 CTL is full of proprietary  antiquated, outdated, and obsolete computers and sensors. So unless you are able and want to re engineer the entire computer system you maybe SOL keeping it running. There isn't a large enough market for an aftermarket to grow into supporting the old machines.

For reference Peterbilt produced 42,000 trucks in 2019 and Freightliner over 100,000. Ponsse has build just over 15,000 machines since 1971. There's a reason the OTR truck market has a huge parts and service support.
I suspect the smaller relative numbers of CTL iron makes everything about keeping one together harder.  The supply/demand curve is against the loggers favor. 

Praise The Lord

chevytaHOE5674

I only have a few hundred hours behind a timbco/4 roller setup compared to thousands of dangle head Ponsse hours. My experience with the head was it lacked holding power, delimbing power, diameter capacity, and accurate length measurements.

The "cradle pocket" in the back of the head was small so any tree of any size didn't seem securely held in the head. I was never confident it was going to hold a tree tight. They are slow heads so they need a tight clamp and traction of the feed wheels to delimb where other rely on momentum. So in larger limbs the 4 rollers seemed to do a lot of digging and spinning trying to knock limbs off. Even with an independent measuring wheel the lengths were never very accurate especially in rough wood our trucker did a lot of trimming...

I don't doubt a guy can cut 150-200 cord a week with one. Depends how many hours and days are in the guys "week" sometimes also. For comparison I would cut that volume in 2 or 3 days (8-8.5 hours per day) with a Ponsse Ergo, (in softwood or aspen did 150 cord a day).




mike_belben

Thats good information for anyone who has not run these things, thanks for sharinng.


Just curious, how many acres did that 150cd day cover?  Clearcutting?
Praise The Lord

chevytaHOE5674

That was clear cutting nice Aspen at 25-30 cord per acre. 

HandyAndy


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