Woodmizer vs. ?

[DR Buck]

Smakman,

I asked the same question about 1 1/2 years ago.  I got about the same number and mixes of responses you have so far.   You know, its the old Ford vs Chevy thing.  Most have their favorite and will stick with it no matter what. 

The first mill I ever saw operate was a fully hydraulic Timber Harvester and  the second was a manual Hudson. I even operated the Hudson to cut some of my own logs.  I still liked the Timber Harvester better though.  I did a lot of online research and called most every portable band mill manufacturer around.  Still thought Timber Harvester was the mill I would buy.

Then last January I went to a farm show where Timber Harvester, Hudson and Wood Mizer were displaying.  This was the first time I saw a Wood Mizer in real life and not a picture. I came home with a contract for a new LT40 hydraulic.!   The rest is history.   

As far as the comments posted so far I need to echo the GREAT service from Wood Mizer as well.  In the past  year and 3 months I have added a number of upgrades to my mill and WM support in installing and getting them to work has been outstanding.  The few minor problems I have had were the results of belt adjustments and minor routine mill alignments.   For these, WM tech service was outstanding.  Both on the phone and responses from the reps that are active on this board.  I have received replacement parts within 2 days of ordering from Indy and I'm in VA.  Tomorrow I am attending a WM sponsored owners workshop in PA.  This is another of their outstanding services.

If I had to do it again.....it would be Wood-Mizer.

[Kirk_Allen]

Arky, just what are you doing with that Walnut Log?  With such a deep cut I can only assume your cutting it in half to releive tension in the log, or making one heck of a fireplace mantle ;D?

[tnlogger]

 marty thank you  ;)  that was the correct response

[Swede]

My last customer told me he had a WM LT40 owner ( who I think is a very good carpenter and sawyer) to saw for him for some years. His last words when I left him:
-I´ll call You when I´ve used these boards!

What he said the days before:
- You really "read" the logs before start sawing. Once we didn´t and get just that and that.
Told him I TRY to..........
- What a LOT OF BOARDS You´re taking out of them logs.
- Yes, I said, but it takes some time.

Do you remember the cronical raging man I sawed for last summer? He said the job took to much time and my samill was useless.

My experience says there is big differences between customers, what they are expecting from a saw mill and a sawyer. Some want logs consumed, other want a lot of boards from their logs.

I think all saw mills works for making boards from logs.
Perhaps it´s more important who´s standing behind the levels than what colour there is on the saw mill, beside what logs you have and what boards you need. For custom sawing you need to understand that and what the customer wants to pay for.


Swede.

[ARKANSAWYER]

  Kirk,
  That log is a "fork" and I was splitting up the pith and through the crotch.  I cut the clear side wood off and was now getting ready to cut gunstock blanks qsawn from the two halves of the fork.    Splitting the fork down the middle and then laying the halves down flat allows me to get the grain of the wood to follow the gun stock and it curves for the branch.  Since the wood is coming below the limb it has figure on the butt of the stock and very straight grain on the forearm.

  But I screwed up!  I had gone to the mill to try to buy walnut and cherry logs for a broker.  The owner of the mill said that in the the past he would save up the logs till he had enough for a days run but might take him a year to do.  He decided to have me come saw as he figures his cost to saw is $0.28 and mine is $0.20 and he does not have to change over from normal sawing.  So instead of getting to broker the logs I got to saw them.  Once I was done he was so pleased that now I have to go back for a few days and do his cherry.  Looks like I may have to go a few times a year till he gets wise and buys his own little toy band mill. >:( (i hate when they call Wanda that)

[Rod]

I have a 10 hp eletric Tuner mill and the only problem I've is removing the borads fast enough as it will cut them

You can flip a 2'x16' log with ease on it too.

[flip]

Or....Do like I'm doing, build your own.  I'm not going to saw professionally and don't need to make 1200bf a day.  I'm using features I like from 3 different mills and incorporating them into one atrocity.  When I get enough $$ put together and get to a local where I can do some milling then I will upgrade.  Oh, my carriage is a 4 poster and will have hydro. for the carriage, log loader and clamps.  Woodmizer vs. Flip, I think I can take em.  :D :

[Timo]

Go Flip Go! We'll be rooting for you at the next shootout.... 8) 8)

I think most things worth saying on this debate have been said in some of the previous (excellent) posts. I do find it interesting how this ongoing discussion so quickly centers around the cantalever vs 4 post design.  To me is seems that rarely is the basic design at fault, but more the engineering of the details. Is that blade tensioning system something you don't even think about, or does it annoy you every time you use it? Do you curse and swear everytime you deploy the leveling system, or is it just another part of the process that you appreciate as a simple part of your daily setup?

I would have expected a lot more discussion about the 'little details' that are big details when you use something every day, every week. Also, what about the consumables like rollers, bearings, blades? I have heard a few band mill owners say that you sell your soul to whom ever manufactures the blades for your mill... Is this the case?

When I purchased my mill recently (a Peterson - lets not even start that debate :  :D) I found that I had been well informed about the big things - how the mill worked, the basic adjustments, ets.. It was the small details that either pleasantly surprised me or bugged me (mostly the former). Promotional material tends to focus on the big things - the devil is in the details.

My 2 cent's worth - currently running about $.016 US....

[pigman]

Timo, I only addressed the cantilever head design because it was one of the two concerns Smakman had with the WM. The other was the price. Since I don't know the current prices of all the mills, I didn't comment on prices.

[customsawyer]

Well said arky.
I have just a few comments last week I was watching a man sawmill with a '89-'90 model WM this man has only one hand he is somewhere close to 50 years young and his mill has over 19000 hours on it and 90% of what he has been sawing the last 9 years have hardwood logs that are all over 30" dia. (just for the record those big logs take a toll on man and machine over 9 years). Now I will not lie his mill looks like it has 19000 hours on it but he still cuts 4-5 days a week on it.
I am not trying to say that WM is the only mill out there that could do that but if there was a design flaw in the cantileaver it would have shown up on that mill by now.
I fully agree with what Swede said earlier most of the time it has alot more to do with the driver and less to do with what is being driven.
The best thing you can do if you can't decide on the best mill for the type of cutting you are going to do would be to contact the sponsers on the left side of the screen and find out the closest mill that is being used in your area and go watch or help that sawyer cut for a day or two and see what mill will serve you best.

[Kirk_Allen]

Thanks for the feedback Dave.  I have found a whopper of a Walnut stump at my brothers place but havent quite figured out the best way to get it out of the ground. 

Three roots come out of the stump, go into the ground and then come out again about 4 feet from the stum and then back into the ground.  Those roots are about 9" round but those that are above the ground have bark just like the tree.  I see lots of potential for it but it is going to take all day to cut it out of the side of the hill. 

[Brucer]

Warning! Possible bias here. I spent most of last summer and fall running someone else's hydraulic Wood-Mizer. Just bought one of my own last month  ;D.

Now that that's out of the way and wearing my Engineer's cap for a moment, you can ignore all the dire warnings about that "unstable cantilever head". They are plenty sturdy and they don't bounce around when the blade is in the wood (which is where it counts). The mill I ran last year was a '96 with 5000 hours. The only time it didn't cut true was when the operator (me) goofed  :(. Don't get taken in by the hype about a 4-poster being "inherently" more accurate. All the portable mills have a carriage that runs on two rails (Wood-Mizers have them on the top and bottom of the main tube). If you let those rails sag or twist when you set the mill up, the saw will not cut true. Doesn't matter if it's a 4-poster or a cantilever head.

Timo's hit the nail on the head. It's the small details that you have to live with day after day (and you mostly notice the bad ones). One way to look at it is this -- your saw's just a small part of a cutting process. Look at all the other things you need to do.

• Bring the saw and logs together at a suitable site.
• Set the mill up and level it (especially if you're doing mobile work).
• Start the engine.
• Load the logs, clamp them, level them if they're tapered, turn them.
• Tension the blade if it's a band mill.
• Raise and lower the cutting head.
• Move the cutting head through the wood.
• Adjust the lubricant flow.
• Remove the slabs.
• Remove the flitches, and edge them later.
• Remove the lumber (and sometimes the "lumber" is timbers).
• Change the blades.
• Sharpen the blades (or have them sharpened).
• Refuel.
• Add more sawing lubricant.
• Check the engine oil.
• Change the engine oil and oil filter.
• Grease various fittings.
• Top up the hydraulic fluid if you've got that kind of mill.
• Change brushes on motors.
• Align the saw head to the bed if the log rests on the mill.
• Take the whole thing down and move it away.
•    and a whole bunch of other stuff.

Then you have to consider all these factors in the context of the type of work you're going to do.

• Are you mechanically minded, or can you be? Do you have the proper tools for maintenance work?
• Which species will you be cutting?
• How big?
• How many hours a week will you work?
• How fit are you? Will hard work make you fitter, or wreck you?
• Will you be moving the mill around a lot, or leaving it in one place?
• Will the logs be dirty? Can you wash them? Do you need a debarker?
• Do you have any support equipment -- loaders, trailers, truck to move the mill?
• If you start to rely on this support equipment, can you afford major repairs or replacement?
• What about safety? Are you comfortable with that type of mill?
• What if the venture doesn't work out? Will you be able to recover most of your sawmill costs?
•    and a whole bunch of other stuff.

The Wood-Mizer was right for me, for the type of work I want to do, for my location, and the types of wood we have around here. Even after running one for 5 months, it was not an automatic choice. The operating experience was invaluable -- it gave me several reference points to judge other mills by. It also showed me that I could do the work, even at 55, even with a bad shoulder.

[JimBuis]

     Okay, I guess now is my chance to make my first post.  I have been prowling around The Forestry Forum for awhile now and have read hundreds of posts.  I have learned a lot.  However, there are a bunch of questions that never seem to get asked. 
     As a wannabe sawyer, I am not concerned about four post design versus cantilever.  What I want to know is after I have spent upteen thousands of dollars on one of these mills, how much other equipment am I going to have to invest in to be able to produce usable lumber?
     My impression is that with a Peterson you can produce finished lumber without having to invest in extra equipment such as a resaw.  Is that correct?  I guess it may be neat to have a mill such as the TimberKing 2400 with all of the tremendous hydraulics, log turners and such.  However, what sense does it make to put yourself in the situation of having a portable mill that requires you to turn a log weighing several tons when you can buy a mill that does not require the log to be turned at all.
     Now some of you may think I am a closet Peterson owner.  In fact, I have never seen a portable mill of any manufacture.  I am just a guy who want to understand the ins and outs of the different designs and what it takes to produce lumber. :P
     Some of you guys have been at this for a long time and are extraordinary expert sawyers.  Please help me to understand what sawmill when purchased will enable me to produce lumber with the least investment in other equipment. ???

Because inquiring minds want to know,
Jim Buis

[Percy]

Welcome Jim Buis.  ;D ;D
To answer your last question, if you just want to barf lumber( as in produce lots :D :D)out of large logs in the dimentional sizes up to 10 inches wide(on the Peterson) and quarter saw large logs, I think a swingblade would be my choice. You will need log & lumber moving equipment of some sort and a swingmill.Thats pretty cheap compared to my LT70/edger/bobcat/forklift/conveyer/yadda yadda. I have worked along side of a Lucas 8 inch 25 horse mill many times and I have actually hired the owner to cut some of my bigguns that were mainly clear WRC. They(swingblades) are awesome. But once, we attacked a couple of loads of Birch  together (aprox 16 inch  diameter into 5/4 random width) each of us with a helper, and we eventually parked the Lucas because the band mills yeild of higher grade was consistently higher and production was much higher as well. Alot more money was spent on the band mill and related equipment as compared to the swinger. 
I am moving my whole setup to a new location and plan on purchasing/ incorporating a swinger into the system. For the price and the wide range of logsizes I run into, it will be an asset for me Im sure.

[Ianab]

Hi Jim

Yes, a swingblade mill will let you cut good lumber, by yourself, from practically any log with minimal support equipment. You will want a few basic tools, chainsaw, log hook / prybar / jack etc of course, but you likely have that sort of stuff anyway.
Of course if you have a tractor / loader and a keen helper you can saw much faster ;)

As Percy said, a bandmill will out perform a swingblade in some situations, and vice versa, but performance for $$ it's hard to beat the swingers.

If you get a chance to go to one of the shows and look at the different models it will give you a good idea of what the machines can do.

Cheers

Ian

[Gary_C]

JimBuis

Welcome to the forum.

One of the problems of these discussions of WM vs X is that it should be about question number 10 on the list of questions you should ask before buying a mill. The first question should be "what do I want a mill to do?" Are you going to be set up stationary or portable? Large logs or smaller logs? Hardwood or softwoods? Grade sawing or dimension lumber? How much do I need to saw in a day or week?  How many people will there be to help?

When you have answered these questions, You can then look for the Woodmizer that you need.  ;D  Just kidding.  I should have said you can then look at the make and model of mill that will best fill your needs and likes. One of the reasons there are so many choices is because people have different needs and yes, preferences. Any of the sponsors mills will cut wood.

As far as edging, you can certainly do your edging on the bandsaw and that is what I do now. However, a dedicated edger is on my wish list. As far as rotating or not, there are pluses and minuses for both ways. For me and mostly grade sawing, I prefer to rotate 180 degrees and saw with the heart of the log centered in every board.

[Rod]

the reason I bought  my mill was cause I could get all my parts for the mill from NAPA.And I wasn't planing on making my living from it either.

I was planning onl cut only about 2000 feet a week,so I didn't need a big $$ mill for that small amount of boards.

[JimBuis]

     Remember that I am the newbie here, so be kind.???  I am wanting a portable mill and intend to keep it portable.  I am prepared to make a serious cash investment in it as I will derive at least part of my income from it. I will have some access to logs on family land, but plan on getting some urban logs.  I would be working alone much of the time and having a helper on occasion.  I am mechanically inclined, have my own tools, and have run many different kinds of equipment on the farm and in industry just not a sawmill.  The mill would be located near St. Louis, MO.  There are a variety of hardwoods in the area as well as softwoods.  You guys in the St. Louis area, what kind of logs do you saw most of the time?  What are the predominant woods in the area? :P  I plan on getting a truck big enough to haul a log or two on occasion, a trailer big enough to haul a backhoe, and a backhoe.  Oh, yeah.  I own 9 rural acres on which I will be building a house and shop.  Building a kiln would be a possibility.
     I hope to buy a portable mill that I can use as truly portable, produce a modest to respectable amount of lumber by myself in a hard 12 hour day and a good bunch of lumber in an 8 hour day with a couple of helpers.  I know my "quantifying" of the amount of lumber I want to produce does not meet with your professional standards, but what do you expect from a guy who does'nt know anything yet? ;D
     If you were in my situation and you don't want to invest in a whole bunch of other equipment, at least initially, such as resaws, planers, lowboy trailers, bulldozers, etc., what TYPE of mill would you buy?  What features or options would you look for on that type of mill?  Having decided on the basic type of mill with what features, what specific brand and model would you buy? :P

Thanks,
Jim Buis

[twostroke_blood]

Aint competition great ? Buy what ever the pocket book can afford. Buy whatever you like its your money afterall. I purchased a Hud-son Farm Boss 36H , its no LT70  I'll grant you that, but its also a third of the cost. I will say this , if i was in it for my livelyhood. I'd own that LT70. Most of these other saws arn't even in the same league.

[Kirk_Allen]

Great question JB.

Dont know if there is a right or wrong answer but here is mine.

I have a LT40HDG25. 
I have cut, BY MYSELF upwards of 60,000 BF of lumber and am approaching the 100,000 bf mark combined with my cutting alone and with help.  The 60,000 bf number is cut, stacked and stickered by me alone.  I have one 21 foot flatbed trailer and a 9000 lb winch, and a 93 Suburban with 480,000 miles and going strong.......................now that the trany is fixed ;D

I have sold a LARGE amount of wood as a part time sawyer and did so with NO other support equipment. Just did a little at a time.  I have had a fair share of custom sawing as well with no support equipment. 

I am at a point where I NEED a loader of some sort to move logs and I need to get my Kiln built because as I have cut more wood, more wood seems to find me ;D

I am about 2 hours east of St. Louis and I cut just about every type of hardwood you will find in the midwest.  Some of which are VERY BIG.  The biggest ever for me was a 56" American Elm.  It took Lots of widdeling to get that one cut and a Swinger would have done a much faster job but those size trees for this area are not the norm.  Most logs I get are in the 20-30" range with some exceptions ;D