Fast growing hybrid larch suitable to plant in Allegany County NY

[bitternut]

I have an old hay field and pasture that is mostly a goldenrod field with a small amount of brush. This area is sloped along a small stream that runs year round and is around 1700-1800 foot in elevation. The land is pretty well drained but does have a couple of small wet spots. Apple trees and hardwoods keep trying to grow near the creek gully but beavers move in periodically and destroy the hardwood trees. I have a couple blocks of white spruce growing along the creek bottom in other areas that seem to be growing OK but nothing spectacular. The beavers have not touched them.

Anyways, I noticed some chatter by some forum members in other posts about a hybrid larch that is a fast grower. Could any of you folks pleased with your larch plantings advise me as to what the variety is and where you got them? I would probably need enough seedlings for a 10 to 15 acre block. Keep in mind they would have to be fast growing. :D

Thanks

[wisconsitom]

Hi bitternut.  I belong to larchresearch.com and you may enjoy perusing that site.  In the meantime, I can tell you that hybrid larch is a very fast grower on moist well-drained upland sites.  I've planted thousands on land that grew alfalfa and corn.  Out of maybe three thousand planted, I think three died.  All three were down in the wet.  Full sun only, like all larch.

The only source I'm aware of is itascagreenhouse.com.  That's where I got mine but that's years ago.  Then place sold and new owners did not offer.  Then I saw more recently it's back in their catalog.  So that's all I know on that 

One thing I've learned- these plants came from open pollination so likely some were actual hybrids, some were Japanese larch, and some were European larch.  I think I can see the variation in the winter twig color-seems like some are golden and some are more coppery.  So anyway there's that, but they're all great trees.  Stuff we planted in '08 is 40ft tall now.

There are actually better hybrids out in the world now but as far as l'm aware, unobtainium.  But if Itasca has something like what I got, you'll have fun watching em grow, if you've got suitable site.  Lots of larch got planted in NY state back when people were doing stuff like that.

[Jeff]

Just regular old eastern larch grows pretty durn fast. 

[wisconsitom]

Yep.  And tamarack will grow well too on well-drained sites, so long as there's a human being on hand to beat back the popple, maple, birch, er whatever hardwood would also grow fast on these sites, eventually shading out the tamaracks and spelling their doom.  Hence, it's kind of stuck in the swamp.  Zero shade tolerance.

[bitternut]

Thanks for the replies wisconsitom and Jeff. I know of NY state forests near me that I use to hunt 60 years ago that had blocks of larch planted. Not sure if they were a hybrid or regular native larch. Wonder how big they are now? Maybe they have already been harvested. Seems like they were about 10' tall the last time I was there. Not sure but I always assumed that larch and tamarack were the same animal. I guess I will have to take a ride and check them out. Its only about 20 miles or so from my woods. Probably doesn't matter what variety I plant at my age. I read about how fast the hybrids grow and that kind of piqued my interest.

I checked out the Itasca nursery and they are out of stock of the hybrid and that has been the only place that at least had a listing. This spring is not a option for planting any way since I would need to do some prep work on the field. Also I need to research what density to plant. I am kind of intrigued by the Itasca system of planting and survival rates.

[wisconsitom]

That's the bugger, sourcing the things.

All tamaracks are larch-eastern larch to be exact-but not all larch are tamaracks.  But because that's the common parlance, I even call my trees tamaracks if I'm say, trying to sell some posts or poles.  If I say larch, nobody will know what that word is😄.

NY state was big on European, Japanese, and hybrids of the two.  There was a prof there,Cornell maybe, that pushed larch, again, back in the day when folks persued that kind of thing.

[Clark]

There were some European or hybrid larch plantations across northern MN. It's tough to say how they grew because porcupines ate them as fast as they would grow. If you have a decent porcupine population I would rethink larch on high ground. They seem to have a way of finding the trees that are growing best and then destroy them.

Clark

[Jeff]

I documented some European larch growing in the u.p. years ago. Ill look for the link

[Jeff]

Trees of Gold in Tree, Plant and Wood I.D.

[wisconsitom]

Great photos Jeff. 

@Clark, zero porcupine damage in any of our larch so far, and I've been a-watching🧐.

[SwampDonkey]

I've planted eastern larch here exclusively on wetland that was previous cedar ground. I'd rather have a tamarack than an alder or willow. They have grown faster than fir that are growing on the well drained ground on the woodlot. The trouble with the larch up here is it grows like a cork screw, badly. Unless planted thicker than the usual 6-7 feet, then thin out periodically. On some old abandoned fields they grow this way and are straighter and no long lateral limbs. Often they are open grown like pasture spruce on fields and good for landscape more than anything. :D Then the saw fly comes in and ends the fun. :D I have been in nice stands of European larch and Japanese larch. I have drove past areas planted in eastern larch on upland hardwood and the hardwoods consumed them, long spaghetti poles that bend down in the snow. They have their uses in the scheme of things. I'm using them for firewood trees. No mill around paying more than $70/cord. Firewood is way more valuable. ;D

This is a wet run with larch behind me. Wind takes one out once in awhile because of shallow rooting. And the bears around here climb them for cones and pull them over to. :D :D





The spruce to the right of the one in back of me is 15 years old, the tamarack is 9. This now is 11 years after that photo and that tamarack is 8" diameter that spruce is barely 4". That bushy tree to the left is a wild balsam fir just up out of the wet bit and is now 18" diameter. It has some wicked limbs, not much good for lumber, it was open grown for so long on the edge of the wet run. We've not got many softwoods that are both very shade tolerant and grow like weeds. :D

[Sod saw]

.


Hi Bitternut.  In your first sentence, you talked about Goldenrod.

Most if us here have heard about planting gardens under Walnut Trees and how the Walnut will kill some plants that are under the tree.

While clearing for some of our new fir plantings, I was warned by our forester that Goldenrod also has the ability to kill (out compeat) some kinds of plants and that I should scrape the soil and remove all of the Goldenrod before planting.  In years after planting, keep an eye out for the return of Goldenrod.

As a side note, now that those new trees are waist high, the Deer are rubbing on them and breaking the main stem off.  The deer did not seem to bother them until I cleared out the wild roses to give the fir trees some light.

Some days it doesn't make any difference what ya do. It's always wrong.



.

[wisconsitom]

Many types of goldenrod-they don't all act alike.  Further, in northern regions, absolutely ubiquitous.  In many if not most cases, you're simply not going to "scrape" goldenrod away.

Nor is it necessarily an issue.  I've been able to successfully launch a new plantation of pine, spruce and larch, on abandoned ag land that turned into nearly solid Canada goldenrod.  Each project and site characteristics are a little different, but I'd rate our experiences as quite typical of places like, WI, NY, and others.

[wisconsitom]

@Jeff, if I'm not mistaken, Weyerheuaser had blocks of Euro and hybrid larch in the Escanaba area.  I do know a retired fellow who was at the Institute of Paper Chemistry years ago here in Appleton was also Forester for Plum Creek and was one of main larch guys back when.  He's listed in group.  I want to get up there and take a look.  

Reminds me, another larch group member Dave Maass was going to try to locate those plots.  Wonder if he already contacted me and I forgot 😱.

[SwampDonkey]

Goldenrod itself was never much problem here when establishing field plantations. The worst was bedstraw and heavy tall grass. A 2 furrow plow or a kulla scarifier to make scalps solved the grass issue. The bedstraw was often released when heavy grass was sprayed, so spraying was never all that effective on fields unless done multiple times and there is no money in that. I'll take a field of goldenrod and wild strawberries over heavy grass and bedstraw when planting trees on fields.

[barbender]

"The Return of Goldenrod" sounds like an action movie😂

There are a few larch plantations around here, I don't know if they're hybrid or what. I've never had a close look at them, I'd guess it's 40 years old or so? Probably Blandin Paper planted them, I'll have to look into it. Blandin was a very forward minded company when it was still privately held.

[wisconsitom]

Let us know you find anything out , barbender.

Probably related this already, somewhere on here, but here goes again;. Spring of '13 we rented the Oconto County's tree planter.  Prior to this it had been all hand planting.  Site had been Roundup-Ready feed corn.  

Planted 6000 that weekend.  A month later, I could not find one seedling, the weeds were so heavy.  By August, the entire field was a mass of ragweed.  I came down my lane in clouds of pollen.  Good thing I don't have allergies!  That might've killed someone it was so bad.

Fast-forward just one year, the entire works had transformed over to goldenrods and asters.

Fast-forward to today-those itty bitty seedlings that I couldn't even find in the weeds are now towering over the weed layer.  Those pines, spruces and larch are not troubled by goldenrod.  The trees are definitely winning the battle for dominance.

[SwampDonkey]

Yep, even my spruce and tamarack on the wild ground was planted through goldenrod and asters, row upon row. She's solid evergreens now and never sprayed more than once to kill shrubs (mountain maple). The only spots that suffered (spruce) were wet places and the tamarack grow there nicely. Better than willow bushes. :D

[bitternut]

Hmmmm ??? :P
Guess I will have to do some thinking about density and preperation for planting. I had thought that I would lay out the row spacing and then spray roundup bands to kill the grass and emerging goldenrod. My plan kind of was to spray the rows this spring and then again in the fall. Planting would be done the following spring. My soil seems to have quite heavy sod. I have used a county rental planter before. Really speeds up the planting. Requires help to ride the planter though. It's my tractor so I get to drive the tractor. :D Besides, I am not a big guy and you need a lard a$$ to weigh down those compresing wheels and firm the soil. ;D Those planters give the rider quite a ride. I have a lot of seat time on a planter planting cabbage and tomatoes but they are an entirely different animal. Well got to go check out Jeff's link and then get to bed and think things over.

[wisconsitom]

If you can prep to that extent, go for it.  We never could and further, we were novices using that planter.  If I was going to do it all over, I'd figure out how to space hybrid larch at something like 12 x 15, not your more typical 8 x kind of thing.  Save on some pre-commercial thinning.  These things grow fast and it pays to give them a little more room right away.

[ID4ster]

Bitternut,

If you're going to plant them in an old hayfield then you'll want to do some site prep this fall. Generally when I plant larch in an old hayfield here in the west I'll do a spot spray in the fall by flagging a spot and then using OUST (Sulfometuron) mixed at 3/4 teaspoon to 4 gallons of water. If your soil is more basic then you have to reduce the amount of OUST that you use. Follow the directions and make sure that you get at least a 1/4 inch of rain within 2 weeks after you apply it. Fall herbicide treatments work better for me since you have the entire winter to push the herbicide into the soil which results in a better kill of the competing vegetation. Planting any tree into an old hayfield or CRP ground without killing the grass is a recipe for disaster. Plant the trees in the spring as soon as the soil warms to 40° F in the spring.

If I were in Allegany county though I'd put in Black Cherry, (Prunus serotina). That area grows the best Black cherry in the entire world and I'd hate to waste ground on a larch of any type in that area.

[SwampDonkey]

We planted fields here that have had a 2 furrow plow run every 6 feet for rows, plant the hinge. Great success. Old run out fields will get colonized naturally by white spruce up here, sometimes tamarack. All depends on seed source. Some fields are so run out, that all there is is low herbs like wild strawberry, devil's paint brush, sparse grass and sparse goldenrod. But any field with heavy grass and thick tall weeds has to be dealt with. Never had much luck with one application of roundup on fields planted to trees. Softwoods (not tamarack or cedar) can be over sprayed in August up here. Weeds quickly come back with just one dose. You get 2 years growth with the plow or a disc trencher before it thickens up.

[wisconsitom]

Forage grasses and especially alfalfa are tough competitors for little planted seedlings or plugs.  My hybrid larch went in following one year of Roundup-Ready field corn.  That made for a fairly clean planting.

Did have absolute explosion of common ragweed following planting.  A wet year, the weeds grew thick and tall.  I could not find any of my seedlings.  Spraying at this point was out of the question.

The very next year, the entire ground layer had converted to goldenrods and aster.  Seedlings were still hidden.  That would have been 2009.  Those trees are now 35 ft tall and require thinning.

Trust me, once your larch trees are one inch above the weed layer, it's game over-the trees have already won.

[SwampDonkey]

Tamarack grows twice as fast as balsam fir and fir twice as fast as spruce. Woody stemmed weeds I say.  :D

[barbender]

Any field I've ever seen, the challenge is to keep trees from sprouting up and taking off.

  I've never planted or managed trees in a plantation. One little experience I had, I transplanted some 1' white pine to my folks' yard. The ones I kept mowed around cooked in the sun. The ones I left the grass tall around thrived.