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Opinion on damaged white oak.

Started by ohiowoodchuck, September 27, 2022, 11:34:07 AM

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doc henderson

what is the height of the yellow tape in the second video?  DBH is supposed to be about 4.5 feet.  watching the video as you went up the tree, I am guessing/estimating the log is 25 feet to the first large branch.  (if the yellow tape was at 5 feet).  seemed to be about 5 lengths of that distance to the first branch.  22.5 if the tape is at 4.5 feet.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

doc henderson

I try to be aware of what I know and what i do not know.  Grade falls into the "I do not know category".   :)
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

ohiowoodchuck

I'll go measure the height of the tape. 
Education is the best defense against the media.

doc henderson

i do not know how tall you are, but if you literally placed the tape at breast height, you can measure  yourself and let us know.  A far away still photo would be easier to estimate (than the video), even if printed in B&W on printer paper.  or just the photo for us taken from a ways back.  
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

doc henderson

I estimated the log to be 5 x the height of the tape, so take that distance times 5.  in video 2
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

ohiowoodchuck

Tree #1 tape is at 66" inches. 
Tree #2 tape is at 60" inches. 
Education is the best defense against the media.

barbender

I didn't have time to watch a video right now, but I would ask- what angle are you coming at this from? By that I mean, what exactly are you wanting the power company to do? A drop in grade from a stave or veneer log to a #1 could be a good chunk of change, or not much depending on markets. You could build a case of it being a drop in grade for X amount of $$. I would probably come from the angle that some guys have on timber trespass, where they cut over a property line and a tree was determined to have value beyond simple timber value. Wildlife value, anesthetics etc. Some get pretty expensive. They scarred your's up, leaving an entry point for disease. The forester said it shouldn't hurt it...I bet that's not what the same forester would've said if I had banged it up with a forwarder on his timber harvest😊

 I would just tell them you are basically assessing a fine for damaging your trees. If they don't pay it, no more access and take them to court for whatever assessed damage you can.
Too many irons in the fire

doc henderson

you can do this yourself, of if you want post a pic of the tree from a distance so we can see it all in one shot.  close to the same elevation to min. distortion.  I am not sure how well I am doing on the video.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

ohiowoodchuck

Education is the best defense against the media.

ohiowoodchuck

Education is the best defense against the media.

ohiowoodchuck

I guess I'm trying to determine the grade of these trees before they was damaged so I can bill accordingly.
Education is the best defense against the media.

doc henderson

for length, tree # 1 I blew up to 175%, and ground to the yellow tape is 1 inch.  to the smaller branch is 4 inches and to the bigger branch is 6 inches or 6 x 66" = 396 inches or 33 feet.  tree 2 is 1.5 inches to the tape and measures 6.5 inches at that scale to the big branch so 4.33 x 60" +260 inches or 21.66 feet.  that is for the millable log.  total tree could be done.  some good firewood above, but no loss there as long as it grows at the same rate.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

stavebuyer

Staves. Diameter inside the bark at 16' will be 78% of the diameter measured at breast height. Those trees will basically yield 1 prime stave log each worth about $2.50 bd/ft Doyle. White oak tends to have lots of overgrown knots in the second and third logs in trees of that diameter class. The overgrown knots are visible in the pictures, 10' 4 sides clear on those trees is a stretch. Too open grown and likely root damage from the cleared areas to produce any veneer. Staves will work at 3 sides.

$1.00 bd/ft standing will buy all the white oak stave stumpage one cares to purchase.

A 20" DBH 2 log tree(32' merchantable height) would have roughly 225 bd/ft Doyle so would be worth roughly $225 standing.

The 16' butt cut log would scale about 16" and contain 144 bd/ft and be worth $360 but that's delivered or loaded on a truck in truckload quantities.

The esthetic loss and or replacement costs would be a larger loss than the timber value.


ohiowoodchuck

Thank you both. That gives me an idea to bill them for. Of course I'm going to bill as loaded and delivered. 
Education is the best defense against the media.

TN King

Quote from: ohiowoodchuck on November 01, 2022, 03:30:06 PM
There is no spelled out easement or road they can use to get from the highway to the powerline easement. I just went up and measured the trees at the butts. I'll post some pictures and I also took a video of both trees. They want me to give them a price for both trees. I'm trying to do this without out having to spend 500.00 for a forester. I will if I have to but there not going to reimburse me for it.
If there is no documented easement or documented right-of-way then they were trespassing on your land. Sounds like they were trying to get to a transmission line, which is different from the line to your residence, barn or well. Lines to your home don't need a documented easement. 
If a power company wants to put a transmission power line through your land they will need to get your permission........This is accomplished by granting an easement on your deed. They will have to pay you for that easement. We have electrical transmission line easements on our lands and they pay us every year for that easement. It just like a lease. They tried to get away with a one time payment. We declined. They caved. Now they have to renew it every ten years. Inflation pays the property tax. 
Timberking 2020 - Mahindra 3550PST - Titan implements -
1840's two story log home - 50x60 log pole barn with 6 stalls - Trout pond - Hardwood timber stands - fruit trees - natural springs and lots of wildlife.

ohiowoodchuck

It was installed in the 50's and there rebuilding it as we speak. I signed a new agreement and got paid very well. There's no access in the easement from the road to the transmission line just thru the property. I kept them from using my driveway and personal bridge to my house by letting them go in on the end of my property. They have a check for me already for the ground the cleared putting in the access road. I held out for as long as I could but I don't have the money to fight a large corporation with a net profit of 54 billion a year. 
Education is the best defense against the media.

TN King

Getting paid very well is a good thing.
Timberking 2020 - Mahindra 3550PST - Titan implements -
1840's two story log home - 50x60 log pole barn with 6 stalls - Trout pond - Hardwood timber stands - fruit trees - natural springs and lots of wildlife.

beenthere

Quote from: ohiowoodchuck on November 01, 2022, 04:44:38 PM
Thanks Doc, any idea on the grade of the logs.
In the two trees shown in the two videos, there appears to be no clear faces. Grade stoppers in every face, best I can tell from your video.
A veneer log or No.1 sawlog, three clear faces usually needed. Two clear faces likely at best No. 2 sawlog, and one clear face at best a No. 3 log which is close to a cull log which has no clear faces. Used to be, back in my day that a No. 3 log didn't pay its way through the mill. That is if the mill is sawing for grade and grading is by the NHLA grading rules.
The market may be different now, and unfortunately we don't have the eye and experience of Danny (aka WDH). Might get some tie logs cut from these two trees, and might get some takers from the pallet log buyers.
Maybe stavebuyer has a keener eye for the stave bolts in these two trees. I don't see it, and again back in the day, stave buyers would cut the trees, knock a few of the best looking blocks and then split them to see the grain direction. Most often the split blocks would be left on the ground to rot. That was what I found on my property after Hiram, Walker, & sons went through the white oak sold by the previous owner. I ended up with a lot of down white oak trees in the 25-35" dbh with maybe 10% of the wood taken for staves.

Demand a good payment, and call their bluff. Maybe they will pay rather than fight the claim. But the loss in aesthetics likely will be your best bet, not what the sale value of either tree is based on the log grade. Wish you well. Sorry about the trees.

Log grade rules
https://extension.tennessee.edu/publications/Documents/PB1772.pdf

Tree height calculator
In the toolbox.
Tree Height Calculator
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ron Wenrich

I'm not seeing any quality in those trees.  Things are very regional, so what applies in my area may not apply in yours.  That patchy bark tells me there is a good chance of glass worm, which negates all veneer value.  I'm also seeing cat faces which lowers the value of any logs.  At best, I would make them a #2, but that even seems to be pushing it.  The lower log would probably yield a decent 8' log, but I'm still seeing tie material. 

As for aesthetic value, when you get into a wooded situation, that value drops by 90% when you get it away from a homesite.  I've used the aesthetic approach in court, and there is a way of doing it.  It goes by the square inch value, and is adjusted accordingly by the setting.  A single tree in a woodlot would be a tough sell in court.  I've only used it in an urban situation.

The damage on tree #2 is small, and won't appreciably effect the timber value in the future.  It will heal over and leave a slight scar which will come off during the slabbing of the log.  The damage on #1 is pretty sizeable and will probably cause rot problems in the future.  But, it is low enough on the tree to not effect the current value of the tree. 

If I'm working for the utility company, I'd offer to take tree #1 down.  You can do with it what you want.  You're made whole because you haven't lost anything.  If you try future growth, you'll end up having to figure the amount of growth over a given period.  How far out will you take it?  Tree #2 I would offer nothing. 

If I'm working for the landowner, I would give the same advice.  In court, I would come up with a valuation of the tree using stumpage prices in the area.  I think you might be able to get that.  I'm looking at about 250 bf Doyle in the tree.  If current stumpage is $500/Mbf, the valuation would be $125.  

The utility company would probably just pay you for that tree and avoid going to court.  If you try to ask for too much, they'll bring in their foresters and the court will rely on their professional opinion vs yours. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

ohiowoodchuck

What would you value tree #2 at. They have agreed to pay for both. I'm not trying to give them a inflated number or lie about anything. I'm just trying to be reasonable nor am I trying to sell a tie log as a veneer. I'm not looking to value the loss over time just the standing value today. 
Education is the best defense against the media.

doc henderson

this has been a good exercise.  thanks everyone.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

Ron Wenrich

The value is in the current stumpage value in your area.  I can't give a dollar figure on that.  This might help you: https://woodlandstewards.osu.edu/sites/woodlands/files/imce/Ohio%20Timber%20Price%20Report%20Fall%2021%20-%20Spring%2022.pdf

I wouldn't go with the highest price in the stumpage.  As you can see, blocking logs are $400-500/Mbf, so don't expect that much more than that for stumpage, assuming the butt log has good quality.  Stumpage value = log value - logging cost. 

No matter what you get, you'll still have the trees.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

ohiowoodchuck

Yes it has and I appreciate everyone who has commented. It is a very educational lesson also. 
Education is the best defense against the media.

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