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How do I read this bid?

Started by Lake_Renegade, September 07, 2004, 12:08:33 PM

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Lake_Renegade

Hello:

I received 2 quotes to have my 80 acres logged.  Both companies have met my stewardship needs (maintaining scenic and environmental conditions, revenue from the sale of timber, wildlife habitat improvement, short and long term financial investment, improved forest health, greater recreational opportunities).  

My question is in regards to payment.  

Which payment is more ... which payment is better ... how do they compare (cord, ton, mbf. etc.) ... are these fair bids?

BID ONE:
Aspen/Hardwood Chipwood: $6 / Ton
Fuel/Bark: $1.50 / Ton
Aspen Sawlogs: $28 / Cord
Hardwood Sawlogs: $30 / Cord

BID TWO:
Aspen Pulpwood: $14.50 / Cord
Mixed Hardwood Pulpwood: $11.50 / Cord
Aspen Sawlogs: $50 / MBF
Mixed Hardwood Sawlogs: $60 / MBF
Mixed Softwood Pulpwood: $10 / Cord

I would appreciate any and all replies.  

Thanks kindly ... lost in the woods...
Lake

Jeff

I would make sure it is defined what an aspen sawlog is. Here awhile back we could not buy aspen logs because the loggers were under orders from one of the big osb plants, that if they had a contract with them, and were working on stumpage they had purchased, or loaned money for, they were NOT to sort logs and it was all to come to the plant as pulp. Not sure how the land owner was paid.

I take it you dont have a forester involved?  If you dont you should have.

That first bid would make me mighty nervous as to what was considered fuel versus chips. I have see nchip operations that needed to fill a quota stuffing sawlogs through its chipper. Not hardly sustainable forestry or best management practices if you ask me.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

sprucebunny

Hello Lake R.. There are calculators in a little box to the left so you can figure it out for yourself because you need to know how much they are saying you have of each type of thing to compare the bottom line.
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

Ron Scott

Did you have a certified forester do your stewardship plan? If so, have them determine your individual species volumes and product values so you can determine a minimum bid value that is acceptable.

It appears that your bids are on a mill scale to be paid after cutting rather than a lump sum value to be paid before cutting.

As Jeff stated above, you might only be getting pulpwood and chipwood values and not the real values for your grade sawlogs if you have any. i.e. $60.00/MBF for mixed hardwoods may be low if much of your hardwood sawlogs are sugar maple, red oak, and black cherry.

I'd also suggest that you have a professional forester appraise your timber for sale and determine the best market values for your area.

~Ron

Sawyerfortyish

I also think you need a forester. We buy logs here in the east by the Mbf. As for the chips 6.00 a ton is what I was offered 5 yrs ago for the chips from my mill. I didn't sell any I ground them into mulch. I don't know about selling sawlogs by the cord. Pulp is sold by the cord. Bid one there's something just don't sound right. Bid two sounds better but I guess things are done differant in the mid west. Who is going to seperate pulp from chip wood from sawlogs. Where are the loads being weighed? Weight slips can be switched or played with as well as log scales. 60.00 a thousand or .06 cents a foot sounds real dirt cheap to me for hardwood logs. That sounds more like a firewood price here by me. The way the wood is being sold in your bids is a lot differant than what i'm used to so a forester would sure earn his keep in this deal if your not sure

Buzz-sawyer

Wow, if those prices are idicative of your local market ......all I can say is THAT IS CHEAP.... :o :onot much money for your woods....I live in Illinois  and mixed hardwoods of low quality ALWAYS bring 18 cents at the mill... ;)
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

Paschale

Lake,

You've gotten some good advice from some guys who know their stuff.  If there's one thing I've learned here on the forum about timber sales, it's to get a forester involved who really knows the market and who will be your advocate when it comes time to sell.  Those of us here on the forum have read many, many horror stories of timber being cut and the landowner realizing after the fact that they had serious regrets or questions, and in the worst cases, some of them were taken to the cleaners.  It took those trees probably at least 75 years to reach their maturity. Take all the time in the world, and use all the resources you can before you let one blade touch one tree!  It's great you're asking these questions, because too often on here, we hear about the horror stories when people write asking advice on how to pick up the pieces of a ruined woodland.

If you have a positive experience, it'd be great to get a report back, since we're all pretty used to hearing the bad sides of things, and some good news regarding timber harvest would be good news indeed!   ;D

Dan
Y'all can pronounce it "puh-SKOLLY"

rebocardo

I like and tend to do everything myself, BUT, if I was having 80 acres logged I would get a professional forester involved. There is a reason why they exist. I might even pay him to mark which trees (or logs) should be saw material, which for chips/pulp, and which should not be cut down at all.

The loggers/companies might even tend to do a better job knowing someone who really knows the business is looking over their shoulders.

I cut down trees all the time and I am getting into my mobile mill sawing and I could not tell a verneer log from a regular saw log. I would think just one or two additional verneer logs of a hardwood would be enough to pay almost any forester any money requested.

He probably will give you a very accurate idea of how much each acre of wood is worth. When I bought my property in ME (30 acres) it came with an estimate about how much each acre was worth in softwood/hardwoods/cord wood and the projected worth in pulpwood.

It is not unheard of to have someone take pulp logs and turn around and sell them as a much higher grade log. Even if it happens after the scale.

If there is general landing area, having a professional forester there counting and seeing what is going out on the trucks might be worth it if you only allow out going access on certain days and times.

Just some things I would think about if it was my 80 acres.

Texas Ranger

Way to go guys, best advise in the world.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

Lake_Renegade

Wow!  Thanks to all for your feedback ... I really appreciate your time.

This is great information.  To me ... this was just my hunting camp ... where I cut some firewood (from downed trees) once a year.

The 2 quotes that I received were from Foresters that my neighbors (one a Rancher and the other a Farmer) recommended.  

One Forester categorized my property as:
1. Aspen / Soft Maple / Birch ... 43.5 acres
2. Aspen / Hardwood ... 25 acres
3. Oak ... 7 acres
4. Red Pine / Field ... 4.5 acres

The Oak and the Red Pine / Field are not being logged.

My property is about 95% (heavily) wooded ... and I have never seen the 4 corners in 30 years.  One of the loggers is a "local-boy" and has a great reputation for respecting the land and the land owner.  He will even go the extra mile and improve establish roads and to even make roads/trails.  He would create trails throughout my property so that I may take an ATV ... so that I may set up deer blinds, take nature walks, etc.  Would this be considered a "good bonus" for a logging job?

Also, can anyone recommend (even themselves) a very, reputable logger ... near Alpena, MI?  

Again ... thanks to all for their time and knowledge.   8)

Lake

Gary_C

I don't think you have enough information to make any decision and especially to sign a contract. I bet you could hire Ron Scott, who already gave you some good advice on this topic, and he would easily make you more money and probably save you a lot of heartache. There are probably others, but make sure you have a consulting forrester working for YOU.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Sawyerfortyish

The trails you speak of are not a bonus but a necessity. How else would anyone get the trees out to a landing. This month skidder trail next month atv trail.
  I thought about this today as I was sawing. Those quots just sound real cheap to me but I havn't seen the lay of the land or the back roads leading there. Still like Buzz sawyer said .18 cents is for low grade hardwood. Prices may be a little lower in some areas but thats a fair price for low grade Last I knew 60.00 mbf was a price for white pine stumpage in my area. If you have a small stand of oak I would have it selectivly cut. But first call around get some other quotes. Just don't be in a hurry it took these trees many years to get to a point of harvest. Take your time to find the right guy with the right price and a good reputation to cut your woodlot.

Jeff

I know Ron has good contacts in that area.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

bull

Throw out those bids..if not get out the philips head leave the trees alone and take care of the job your self...... If you even consider either of those bids......  "getting screwed" comes to mind!!!!.

 getting paid stumpage rate sucks........  get paid for grade and buy the mbf..... you took the time to let the trees mature
 # 1 oak  3 clear faces  12 inch tip + better paying over $800 per 1000 bfd.

Lake_Renegade

Thanks kindly Jeff B.   :)

Ron Scott ... if you would please help me in finding a few, good Foresters in the Alpena, MI area ... I would greatly appreciate it.  I am also sending you an e-mail (via the one posted on your web site).

If you feel compelled to come out of retirement and take a look at my property ... please feel free to do so.   :)

How I started this process ...
I was recommended to contact a mill ... they sent their Forester with their logger ... then I received a bid.
This is how I received both bids ... is this common practice ... or is there a better way?

Also,  I contacted http://www.mfra.org/ ... asking for a recommendation for a reputable Forester.

Once again ... I thank you all for your time and knowledge.

Best regards,
Lake

Jeff

MFRA is not likely to recommend a forester as its really not thier thing. At least I am pretty sure of thier response since I'm on the board of directors. :)

Lake, read this thread. A very good reason why you need to be careful and be educated because this one is happening right in you nic of da woods.

https://forestryforum.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=Business;action=display;num=1092155501

We can give you THIS guys name and company privately if needed so you DONT use him.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ron Scott

Lake,

I responded to your email. Alpena is a little far for me these days, but I can give you some reliable forester contacts over that way.

Landowners should understand that there are differences between foresters depending upon how they are employed. ???

Public Foresters: They work for a public agency such as the USDA Forest Service, DNR, Natural Resource Conservation Service (NRCD), etc. They basically manage the public lands under the respective agencie's management direction. The DNR and NRCD may provide service foresters who can advise private forest landowners in the management of their forest lands. Take advantage of them whenever you can for some "free advice".

Industrial Foresters: They work for the benefit and interests of their employer whether it be the need for sawtimber, pulpwood, etc. They can provide landowner advice at no charge, but realize where their primary interest is.

Private Consulting Foresters: They provide a private professional forestry service and work directly for the forest landowner as their client. They serve as the professional forest manager for or advisor to the private forest landowner. They are hired by the landowner and work for a fee as the landowner's representative. The landowner should ensure that their consultant forester has a college degree in forestry, 5 plus years experience, and is a certified forester. :P




 
~Ron

rebocardo

>  was recommended to contact a mill ... they sent their
>  Forester with their logger

I would want someone independent, not in bed with anyone but me, who loves me, and looks out for my best interest first. If you catch my drift.

Going by the previous post, that would mean a "Private Consulting Forester".

SwampDonkey

Your prices for pulpwood aren't far off, but for the sawlogs I'm a bit concerned. We usually get half the mill delivered price on logs and veneer wood. If your only getting $50 or $60 MBFM that's not worth your time. I agree with everyone that a qualified consulting forester should be employed here.

Jeff reminded me of something when he said some mills don't want their contractors to sort their wood for grade. We also have a big hardwood pulp mill here in the river valley that I know for a fact will sort the logs and veneer from the pile. Also another Industrial Giant here that will buy your veneer spruce logs for sawlog price and sort them and ship them to their veneer plant in Maine, but you aren't allowed to sell to the veneer plant yourself. If you could your veneer spruce go from CDN $380/MBFM sawlog price to US $1000/MBFM ,with 14 inch tops, for veneer. ::) They don't even want you to buck the sawlogs from the treelength wood. Of course the treelength price is half the sawlog price. ;) Any way to screw the producer.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Oldtimer

My 2 cents: Get estimates / quotes from as many logging companys as you can find, and go with the one who not only has the best price, but can do the job quickly and close out the site while keeping with BMPs. This means the logger should have the equipment to get it all done fast. Getting 10,000 dollars in two weeks beats getting 11,000 over the course of 6 months. I know it isn't "PC" here, but IMO  Foresters can screw you as fast or faster than a logger. It would be unwise to blindly trust a forester, just the same as  with a logger. Getting several quotes/opinions will make the decision easier.

Good luck,and post some pics of the job in progress if you can.
My favorite things are 2 stroke powered....

My husky 372 and my '04 F-7 EFI....

beenthere

Yup, the forester can pretty well hold the logger in line, and that probably cuts into the loggers profits. But the forester will have the better idea (not that the landowner cannot learn what is needed) of what the logger should pay for the standing timber, and how he should leave the forest when finished logging. Logger should get paid for everything they are expected to do, as well, such as knocking down tops, cleaning up for a 'nice-looking' job, and leaving logging trails in good condition so they don't erode. Lots of room for cooperation. But as Oltimer says, there are all kinds, and asking around is a good idea.
Wish'n Lake_R good luck and hope he gets the best deal.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Lake_Renegade

Everyone ... once again thanks for your time and experience.   :)

Ron .. thanks for the information on the difference types of Foresters.  I have contacted one Private Consulting Forester already ... your first referral.  I spent about an hour on the phone with him ... a very knowledgeable guy.

When a job/event/operation is important ... it truly is worth the cost of consulting with a specialist in that field.  They have the knowledge and experience ... that a part-timer just does not have.

I am getting great advice on how to proceed.  I will keep you-all posted on the progress ... and lessons learned.  It looks like my process will be ... having the land surveyed ... consulting with a Private Consulting Forester ... then let the Private Consulting Forester run.

I will definitely try to get some images of the progress and share them.

Best regards,   8)
Lake

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