Forest thinning - where to start

[RichInTheUSA]

Hi, I have 30 acres in VA (Shenandoah foothills) which was likely a farm in the 1800's/early 1900's... and I've been told it's a young forest.

There are some hardwood trees (a variety of oaks, sycamore, walnut, Osage orange, black locusts), but mostly cedar and to lesser degree pine.  We also have pawpaw trees along two streams, which I want to preserve.  My goals for this property are for recreational enjoyment, to promote wildlife habitat, and hunting to some degree (white tail deer and turkey).   I'd also like to be able to harvest walnuts at some point. 

Thinning ????

In some places the cedar trees are so think you can hardly walk through them.  Should I thin these out?    If I cut some down, should I put stump killer on the resulting stumps?  These trees are only about 10' tall, so I'm assuming the wood isn't good for anything except firewood. True assumption?

In other places where there are oaks or hardwoods... I find that there are many smaller trees that are just over crowding the trees.   In some cases branches are hitting other trees, which is causing deformities.   Should I thin out the smaller trees, allowing the big trees to have some room?

I often see vines taking over trees...   some are poison ivy, others are native grape vines.   Should these been removed?

Lastly,  I had a buddy come over who pointed out a stand of black walnut trees.  He said I should take out competing trees, so that these walnuts can mature.   In some cases, black walnuts were growing side by side... so he suggested taking out the smaller ones.

I'd like to plant some apple trees and can get seedlings from the state at a reasonable cost. I suppose I could/should take out pines & cedars to make room for these.  Will the ground be too acidic where pines/cedars have been?   Will i have problems growing fruit trees there?

Looking for any advice from the foresters.

Thanks, Rich

[beenthere]

Sounds like a fun project and good luck on the planning.

Not much else grows under walnut, so don't plan to put the apple trees there. Deer won't eat the walnuts, but will like the apples and some pears.. 
Plant some oak for the deer and turkey.

[mesquite buckeye]

By the cedars I assume you mean red cedars. If you prune them up they make a nice place to walk as they won't resprout branches. If you remove one the stump will not generally sprout. I haven't seen a single one sprout after I cut one. They make really nice lumber when they get big enough. To prune them up cut all the lower dead branches and about 1/4 to 1/3 of the lowest live branches. Cut the branches off just above the branch collar, a kind of bulging part of the branch base. If you cut into the collar you invite rots into the trunk. You may also need to thin the cedars for them to be healthy and to get decent growth.

Generally cedars are one of the first trees to reoccupy abandoned fields, and are very good at reducing soil acidity, as their leaves contain high levels of calcium. Often you get cedars, then later as the soil recovers hardwoods invade the cedar stands.

Cedar thickets are preferred refuges of whitetail deer, especially in winter and for cover. If you want deer, you need to leave at least some of the dense thickets.

Unless there are still openings in the woods, you will be wasting your time planting fruit trees. They need full sun.

Photos of your woods would be helpful to evaluate what would be beneficial actions to improve your woods.

When you get around to a timber harvest of some sort, or a thinning, leave some of the down tops in place as these form good protective cover for turkey nesting. Remember that nature is not neat.

[petefrom bearswamp]

Rich, you should have a ball altho lots of hard work grooming your property.
By all means cut the vines but beware of the poison ivy
It aint fun to catch.

[RichInTheUSA]

Thanks for the comments...

Yes, Red Cedars.   Good to know the white tails like them.   I will certainly leave dense thickets... as there are too many for me to cut down anyhow.     I may cut paths through them so it's easier for people (and deer) to go through them, still leaving plenty of cover.

As for fruit trees... we do have several fields on the property that I generally cut with a bush hog.  They are big enough that they could get very near full sun. We have a big persimmon tree in one of them... deer like those too.

As for pictures... I'll take a few next weekend, specifically of the various stands of trees.

However, I'm mostly a video guy...  My YouTube channel has lots of pictures of the property, but mostly in the context of animals on game cameras. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuV0G22--cFEzB1VYvZzo9g

Thanks again for the advice...   Rich

[WV Sawmiller]

     Cutting the smaller Walnuts reminds me about when Dolly Parton supposedly was a child and hoeing corn. Her dad came along and found she was cutting all the big stalks so he asked her what she was doing and she said "I'm giving them little ones a chance."

    I know the vines create hazards for logging but grapes are a pretty good source of mast here. Not sure if you have muscadine grapes (wild version of scuppernong grapes) but they are great for wildlife and people food too. We don't have them here, just smaller grapes but they dry into raisins on the vine and are good winter food when lots of other mast is gone.

   Anybody know if the small cedars would make good fence posts? I don't remember how rot resistant ERC is. Mist be an option. Might this some and leave other patches for deer cover and help you know where likely bedding spots were come hunting season.

   For wildlife edge effect and diversity are key to help them find everything they need. Old trees provide dens, young ones browse and shelter and newly cleared grasses, berries and nesting sites for turkeys, quail, etc.

[thecfarm]

It's fun to work the land. I did a small thinning on an area of my land. May not know what I am doing,but I took out some old stuff and stuff that did not look good.

[Dobie]

In your area you might want to consider pear or peach instead of apple.  With all that red cedar, your apple trees will be susceptible to apple cedar rust.   

[mesquite buckeye]

In Ohio the old timers said a cedar post is good for 75 years. ;D 8) 8) 8)

[Peter Smallidge]

This is all good advice.  I'll suggest, though, there is nothing like boots on the ground; contact your state forestry agency and ask for a service forester to visit.  The forester is likely pre-paid (your tax dollars at work) and can provide an objective perspective.  In most states, the state forestry agency will write a stewardship plan that will have a suggested work schedule to prioritize where you should work for those things you are interested in accomplishing (deer, turkey, pawpaw, etc.). 

[Oldman47]

I think Peter has the right idea. Contact your local state forester and do a walk though with him. There is nothing we can say here, using your descriptions, that will give you the quality responses he can give you on the spot during a walk through. If you don't know how to contact your forester, ask the folks at the Soil and Water Conservation District office. I guarantee they will know how to do it.

[Trevor4130]

I'm in Mount Jackson very near to you and in a very similar situation. I put in a small mixed orchard with about 40 trees about 5 years ago and it's doing great. Cedar apple rust is unavoidable around here because of the great distance the spores travel but there are some really good CAR resistant apple varieties that thrive. So don't assume it won't work, it just requires careful planning.

[landscraper]

This is all good advice.  I'll suggest, though, there is nothing like boots on the ground; contact your state forestry agency and ask for a service forester to visit.  The forester is likely pre-paid (your tax dollars at work) and can provide an objective perspective.  In most states, the state forestry agency will write a stewardship plan that will have a suggested work schedule to prioritize where you should work for those things you are interested in accomplishing (deer, turkey, pawpaw, etc.).

Not too expensive from the VDOF but not free or pre-paid.  http://www.dof.virginia.gov/services/our-fees.htm