Quite possibly, the most crooked logger ever

[Minnesota_boy]

Yes there are some very concientious loggers.  I had one on my property.  After cutting over 1000 cords of aspen, I found 1 pop can and one piece of steel in my field.  The piece of steel was a cut off doen by the welder he hired and most likely got buried in the snow as they were repairing a skidder.

As the forester was laying out the sale, he gave me a list of loggers that he had worked with and asked me if I wanted to add or remove any before the cruise was let out for bids.  I removed one, a neighbor.  I didn't want to cause bad feelings in the neighborhood if I had to get nasty to get things done as I wished.  The forester said that the one I removed was super 9 of 10 jobs, but the 10th he would have to really watch to see that the job was done right.

[redpowerd]

After cutting over 1000 cords of aspen

what do you do with a cord of aspen? :-/

[Jeff]

Well, at our mill, we cut 500 feet or so of lumber out of it as we create some chips that will become OSB and provide the farmers with the most sought after sawdust we make for use in bedding thier stock.

[redpowerd]

i cut lumber out of it also, but the bedding, only for the calves, needs to be dry. people here cut it up for OSB, but its not measured by the cord.

[Ron Wenrich]

A couple of months ago, I ran a poll about licensing loggers.  Less than the majority thought we should.  So, that gives us pretty much a system of self regulation.

When I scaled logs, I could always tell which loggers weren't trustworthy.  I had one guy that would drag his logs through the mud to hide defect.  I also know of another logger who would go out and mark additional trees on jobs.  I know of a large mill that underscales woodlots when they buy them.  They pay a good price on a bogus scale.

But, what you are hearing is that a landowner got screwed out of his timber.  A lot depends on how its interpreted by the landowner, before they yell "foul".

I had one landowner who thought that a logging job was botched when they saw broken branches on their trees.  It was explained that it was normal damage.  They still weren't pleased.

Others would hear the price of veneer logs or see what lumber is fetching at the local chain store and figured that they got taken when they didn't get anywhere near that price.  You'll never get a guy to understand why he got 50 cents a foot while Lowe's is getting $5/bf.

What bothers me more is the jobs that look good, but have bad management.  A neighbor loved their logging job, which took all the high grade and left the junk.  Stocking was high enough to ensure good aesthetics.  Aesthetics will sell any type of management job.

But, as long as we self regulate, there is no recourse.  Sometimes good loggers get caught doing dumb things to save time.  Ruts aren't a good thing, but they should be repaired after the logging job, and your contract should say so.  Same goes for repair debris.  

The Northeastern Logging Association regularly recognizes loggers that do an outstanding job.  They also recognize landowners, foresters and others that make a good contribution to the industry.

Maybe we should have a hall of fame here on the board for people who had good logging jobs.  

[Scott]

 Special Ed, the job you described is the norm around here. Saw chains, skidder chains, skidder cable, skidder and truck tires, oil filters, oil buckets (sometimes full of used oil), track rollers, engine parts, batteries, hydraulic hoses and food related garbage are all comonly found on job sites around here. Its really sad to see. Also they've left a old bulldozer and a burned harvester in the woods not to mention a worn out harvesting head and an old feul tank (large metal one on truck axle). As for logging when the ground is frozen....forget about it. these guys just don't care what kind of a mess they make its all about the $$$$ for them. Please don't get me wrong, there are good loggers out there who do care but they aren't working around here very often.

[J_T]

I know most logers around here one will do more than a contract calls for then some he is always behind .Neighbor got in a hurry sold to another guy and two years later still a mess.It is no big trouble to go to past sights and talk to people. He left 87 hickrey 15 oak's and a few other trees I called the people an wanted the rest for tyes wouldn't even talk to me . Plus there is a big log pile this is right across from my mill ??? They are big farmers and must of wanted to sell to a bigger outfit and was in a hurry. You can find good and bad anywhere it seams to often the bad sticks out more than the good . Some here want to sell that 35 grand walnut tree then fuss about the sawdust too >:(

[pasbuild]

I either know or know of many of the loggers in my area and for the most part they will do the job that is expected of them, on small private cuts they take care with the hope of going back at a later date and cutting it again, but on the large corporate cuttings they get them down and out as fast as possible, thats whats expected.

[Phorester]

I'm sorry, but for the ones who are saying that bad logging results are expected, bad loggers and foresters are the majority, loggers will always rape the woods, I say bull****.

I've worked with these situations practically every day, certainly every week, for 30 years as a Service Forester for the State of Virginia.  As Tom said, there are thieves everywhere, some of them are loggers.  BUT there have always been numerous ways you can protect yourself from the bad ones and get a good one, but most people ignore them until they have problems.  Then they come to "The Government" to get the problems straightened out, and/or badmouth loggers in general to everybody within earshot.

Every bad personal experience and 2nd and 3rd hand story in this thread could have been handled by a good sale contract that says the trash will be picked up, the ruts will be smoothed out, the skid trails and haul roads will be seeded, stream crossings will be returned to original streambanks, no logging when the ground is so soft as to cause deep rutting, mud will be scrapped off the road at the logging entrance, gates will be kept closed, the logger will complete the job by such-and-such date, will not sell to a second logger without written permission of the landowner, unduly damaged trees will be compensated for by paying the landowner twice the sale price for them, etc., etc., etc.  These are standard timber sale contract provisions. You can put any limitation/request/concern you want to in a timber sale contract for your own situation.  
 
If you or your parents/brother/friend/uncle/neighbor/former owner  didn't have such a contract, you are as much at fault as the bad logger you let in your woods.  A good consulting forester selling the timber for a private landowner will include any provision you want and some you didn't think of  in the sale contract and oversee the job from beginning to end to see that all contract provisions are followed.  That's part of his commission the landowner pays him for.

Industry foresters should do the same on their industry lands. If they don't, it's the fault of their employer for letting them get away with letting a bad logger operate on company lands.

Yes, there are good foresters and bad foresters. Both kinds even work for my Agency.  But it doesn't take a rocket scentist to find a good one. The average private landowner in the USA sells timber once in his entire lifetime.  Spend a few weeks, a few months, if it takes, to find a good, competent forester to sell it for you.  That doesn't mean there won't be problems.  But with a good forester, the problems should be fewer, and they should be easily solvable.

If a bad logger does a bad job, that means the landowner didn't do the things he could have done to protect himself and his land.

[pasbuild]

Phorester I think you miss understood my intent, I was trying to say that the loggers in my area do a GOOD job and there expected to. The cutting that iv seen on private land have been done with great care however the corporate land that is being cut is getting cut REAL heavy and then being put up for sale. The corporation is the one getting them down and out as fast as possible.  
On the good and bad loggers issue I have only known of two loggers that were taking money logs off of the job and they were individual guys cutting for landowners and yes there was no forester involved on the jobs.
most log buyers want to know were the logs came from and will not buy questionable logs.
The woods product industry is an honorable profession full of honorable men and women and as we all know your going to find a couple of rotten eggs in every hen house.  

[slowzuki]

Swampy would likely have a story or two to add to Scott and I's in this area.  Much of it has nothing to do with the logger and everything to do with people's attitudes here.  Many people here still believe its ok to dump junk in the woods and it's ok to drain used oil into a low spot in the ground.  I'm not talking loggers specifically but everyone, including farmers.

There are good loggers here too, but they don't always make as much money so aren't as sucessful.  

Our farming partners are getting some work done now, the fellow is courteous, clean, and leaves the woods looking nice but is high grading it.  Our neighbours don't know what high-grading is, he just said to them everything big is gonna blow down in the next five years and they had visions of $$ rotting in the woods.  He showed them some fir butt's the ants had gotten into and she thinks he's a saint.  He doesn't show all the spruce that is in beautiful shape that could restock good genetics in the area then be harvested in 20 years.

A good logger I know of uses a single grip harvester on a tracked chassis,  He does a lot of I think it is called commercial thining?  He makes his trails grabbing what has been called/marked in the cutting and limbing it in front of the machine so he drives on a mat always.  The forwarder or skidder then follows on the mat and hauls to the road.  The owners aren't always keen as it leaves a mat of brush were they may have wanted a 4 wheeler trail and some branches break when hauling stuff out with the head doing thinning.

He can do a good job when thinning for pulp wood, pick off the nasty stuff.  It is a function of his equipment too I suppose.

There is another good logger locally who operates with a cable skidder.  He is careful in wet areas when they aren't frozen, always cleans up after himself, from garbage to bumper trees.  His sites don't look as pretty slash wise but it is spread out in the woods to decompose.

I won't be too critical as I do a little weekend logging on my own property but I don't follow the best practices, using a tractor I can't leave slash on the skid roads or I have to buy hoses too much.  Best thing I do is work in the winter on top of snow.

[Scott]

 All the land around my house is owned by a small corporation. All the garbage i mentioned before can be found on thier land around here (aprx 2000-3000 acres) I'm not going to blame the loggers completely on this one. I'd have to say its the land owners fault. All he wants is the money, he REALLY doesn't care whats left behind when his guys are done. he's the type of guy who wouldn't give up an extra dollar to look after the environment. If it costs him money he's not going to do it, it's just that simple. I don't think he pays his loggers very well and he pays them on production so they really can't go back and fix things up or take time to be carefull and do things right. I'm not saying that these loggers care, I'm just saying that things might be better if the landowner thought a little different. We've called the envirnment department on this company before for everything from illegal stream crossing with the skidders, to garbage to poorly built roads, to illegal blasting to putting a shut off valve on the drain stream on a lake. We've rarely got anyone to come out and look at whats going on and when they do take action this guy always gets off the hook in the end. This guy is one of those guys who gives logging a bad name.   >:(

[Ron Scott]

Good timber management includes managing the harvest which includes 'the loggers" doing the harvest. Landowners need to know this and not turn their timber directly over to a logger. Not all loggers are foresters nor do they have the landowner's interest and objectives in mind.

There are "bad apples" in every profession, but it is best to hire a certified forester that you have faith in to manage your timber. Landowner's need to blame themselves if they let a "bad logger" loose in their timber stand without seeking professional assistance.

When surgery is needed we see a Doctor who is a specialist in the subject at hand.  ;)

[Buzz-sawyer]

there are many regions of the country where foresters are NON existent....I am not sure it is fair to say those people....especially the weak and elderly, are responsible for the ethical breach of a contractor.

[Phorester]

Thanks for the clarification, Pasbuild.

Buzz-sawyer, there ARE areas where foresters don't work.  But even in these areas where no consulting foresters operate, or where they do not actually handle a timber sale for landowners (some consultants in one part of my State only mark and cruise timber, then give this info to the landowner,  they don't handle sales), a landowner can still get information on how to properly conduct a timber sale.  Ones connected to the Internet have the widest range of info available, of course, but for people in the USA who still don't have a computer, a telephone call to their State Forestry Agency or County Extension Agent will get the ball rolling on how to carry out a timber sale.

And the elderly are indeed at a disadvantage.  They are more trusting of people.  They grew up in an era when you simply trusted people to do a good job and look out for the interests of their customers. Even back then we know it didn't always occur, since I still hear horror stories stories of what happened on logging jobs 50 years ago.

It's good to start seeing some more positive messages about loggers.  ;D

[Ed]

The words "beleive" and "assume" tell me a lot. Again an imperfect view.

Jeff, in this instance thats all I can say. There is nobody left alive to ask. All trees to cut were marked, by whom I don't know. It was not done by the owner.

I have been into logged areas that were done in a very professional manner. No trash left & no major land damage. The loggers even cut up all softwood tops (per landowner request) so they would lay on the ground to rot quicker. All hardwood tops were cut for firewood.
 I pass a small woodlot on my way home every day that was recently logged, again an excellent job. Someone is cutting up the tops & even taking time to pile up all the brush. So I know not all loggers are slobs/crooks.
 

[Scott]

 We had a logger cut a 50 acre parcel of family land a few winters back. The work he did was nothing special but he was honest and friendly and did make an effort to do a decent job. Before this time we didn't know him. Now he's a friend of the familly. We don't see him too often as he lives a fair distance away but we always send a card at Christmas.

[SwampDonkey]

I'de like the say that during the 80's and 90's there was alot of 'free for all logging' in my area as everyone had 'budworm' on the brain and alot of loggers where using this as an arguement for clearcutting woodlots. Even the experts where preaching that we needed to harvest the spruce and fir or loose it. So that stuck in most people's heads. They even got away with convincing landowners their hardwood needed cutting because of a few scattered fir in their hardwood stands. Well, we didn't clearcut all our softwood ground, mainly because there is alot of it and there are alot of folks that don't depend on it for livelyhood any longer. So, it was ties up in reserves of sorts. And after all that hype the woods didn't disappear, the budworm epidemic subsided and I'm still cruising large fir and spruce trees that budworm never touched. Back in those days our hardwood was only valued as pulpwood. There wasn't much of a sawlog market and veneer wasn't even considered. Then in the late 90's sawlog and veneer markets started opening up, but it still took some convincing to get the owner operators or loggers to buck for grade. It was a long struggle, and what helped the sawlog and veneer markets in my area was the log buyers who where sent to woodlots and marketing boards staff who went to the woods to show folks the value of that log in sawlog form versus pulpwood. The marketing boards would have buyers put on bucking and grading courses and still do. The volume of value added products has risen quite sharply in the last 5 years. You can see this every week as the log yards for the marketing board have been stuffed with logs and veneer requiring a guy full time to sort, buck and mark the wood for private producers. I'm seeing a lot of loggers whose attitudes have taken a 180 degree turn and are operating under the 'best management practices' slogan. It is now not the norm to find oil jugs, filters, engine parts, skidder cable and so on strewn throughout the woods. For those that still do they are a dying breed. To work on crown lands for forest companies they are policed sharply by woods foremen who check there harvest layout (real sticky on trail placement), check their machinery for leakages, check for safety and various other aspects. That dumped oil on the ground is becoming less common because loggers are required to dig that soil up and take itto an incinerator.

Now as far as the Dept of Environment. They do not want to get involved with conflict. They do not want anything to interfere with their pension and they have too few inspectors spread around the province to enforce the laws as required. The laws they have in place are to act as a deterant, but won't be enforced for small enfractions. Most times the fine or fixup costs less than a man's wages to remedy the problem. They are more intend on haggling the larger infractions and haven't the time to spend on all the little ones. if the fines were increased enough to increase address the staffing problem then the infractions would become less common. But, the government doesn't operate 'intelligently'. They are very inefficient and lack inter-departmental communications. Also, the politicians are powerless against the established bureacrats, who actually run things. Go to your local MLA they say, but still nothing gets done. They just hope that after awhile you'll stop pesturing as long as they keep ignoring you.

Getting back to the good and bad loggers. I too have seen both of course. But, when I worked at the marketing board, the contract we had with the owner gave us the authority to controll the harvesting and the loggers activities. We where the manager, and called all the shots. We hired the logger who we knew we could deal with and get the job done right. I can remember quite a few jobs I looked after that were very satisfying. When you can go back to a site 2 or 3 years later and hardly find evidence we'de been there, and at the same time make the owners experience a good one, and practically double his money, and leave an excellent job and woodlot behind, then I feel we've accomplished good management. I can remember one site where we doubled the owner's investment and the owner was left with a woodlot with great potential and with more than double the wood that was harvested. We only had 6 acres of clear cut because of old growth fir and poplar (short lived), plus road right-of-way. Most of that poplar we got veneer price and the fir weighed out real good for the treelength market even though 90 % had butt rot. I had photos of all the wood we cut when it was stacked. All trails and harvest trees were marked and the skidder operators were a pleasure to work with. I can only remember one job site the loggers where a problem and these where horse loggers working in difficult terrain, which was ment for skidder, but that was later resolved. Although the previous manager put the roads in the wrong place, which ment hauling tractor trailor loads up some pretty steep hills. Very poor planning there and it was obvious the manager let the loggers put roads where ever. In fact the truckers told me the manager was rarely there and was being paid $6/cord to watch things. I think he was too busy shearing Christmas trees at his own farm. :

Well I think that's enough from my perspective. ;D

[slowzuki]

Well, I got to tour a neighbours recently created clearcut.  The logger was honest but the owners didn't consult a forester.

They did a diameter limit cut on 30 acres or so.  The limit was 10" supposedly but I saw lots of small stumps.  Whatever.

The thing that bothered me was all the bumper trees and damaged trees were left, and there are a lot of them!

I'd guess they left 3-5% trees standing (all small cedar and hardwood. unmarketable) and damaged half them despite there being all kinds of room to work around.  Not terribly impressed.

They also never bothered to leave a bladed path for the owners farm tractor to travel through to clean all the stuff they cut and left.  I kinda wish I had bought the skidding winch and worked with the owner to log it over the winter.

[SwampDonkey]

Most land owners never will consult a forester in New Brunswick. 99% percent of the time its absantee owners that don't live in New Brunswick who consult a forester or marketing board to manage their land. The owner goes his own way and the logger does what he wants. Then the owner is left with a mess and nothing what the 'verbal' agreement entailed. Shame. Also, there is a perception that loggers are always foresters. I know with certainty the owner will get a better deal with a forester involved as a 3rd party, but try and convince the owner of that. It's like hammering a rock pile.

[Ron Scott]

It's hard to understand why some landowners don't seek out and use some professional advice for their land and resource management. It sounds like some timber stand improvement will be needed "after" the logging job.

[WH_Conley]

I,m gonna stick my nos in here, for what it's worth. Do ya think sometimes the land owner just sees the money coming out of his pocket and not the benefits?  A lot of the landowners either think the logger is a forester or really don't know the difference. A lot of the people are too trusting, as you can tell I'm doing a lot of summing up here because I think the major problems have been pointed out. We don't have the option here of a forester, it's every man for himself. I know personally of loggers around here that have stolen timber, one went to jail once- the thief. One guy I know personally told me once he just loved to hear the sound those little ten inch poplars made when they hit ground as he ran them over with the skidder- the slob.( same guy that wanted to log my place when I bought it, had not been cut since the fifties) I reminded him of his comments years before and told him never to set foot in my woods. Many, many more that I have worked with and have known for years that I can tell what I want done, if they cannot economically do it, they say so. When you agree on a deal, you don't have to even go in the woods to check on them. I have known a few times in the past that the logger has talked the owner into not cutting as small as they first wanted, because they really had no idea what they really wanted, didn't understand future management- the good guy. This is the guy you have to wait on if you want timber cut because he is always booked up. That's enough rambling from me, I'm no expert, just know what I have seen in the past. Sad thing we are not easily going to change people, there will always be slobs and thieves and they are going to give all of us a bad name mainly because of an uninformed public. I'll shut up now.

[SwampDonkey]

I don't think it's the lack of awareness of the owner, theirs been too much preaching over the last 25 years. If it were the case than there are alot of folks walking through life with blinders on. I think I've mentioned it before on the forum too, that alot of owners see the forester as the middle man and think they can do better financially if they deal with the logger only. It's always too late when the woodlot has been cut to do anything but complain. What I see are alot of 'good' clearcuts most times and that seems to be the way the owners sell the timber. Alot of folks that complain are the drive by sight see'ers and neighbors. Just driving up into my area all you see for mature woods is poplar-fir stands. The mature hardwood, cedar and spruce have been raped, mostly during that 80-90's era. And mostly for financial recovery on family farms.

[WH_Conley]

Most people don't listen to preaching unless they think it pertains to them, human nature being what it is the majority of people seem to think, "It can't happen to me" or " I"m smarter than that", just human nature. There is where the blinders come in. I agree that most people see the forester as an unecessary middleman that is just taking money out of their pocket and in some cases might wind up with more money in their pocket immediately because they will sell something that a forester would convince them to keep for later on down the road. In the long run ending up with less money. I have seen clearcuts in the south that were reseeded and treated like a crop, this I can understand. The clearcuts we have around here are all corporate owners, no one else can get the permits to sell pulp, just not much market. I just can't understand the clear cutting around here, there is no reseeding. Look at Eastern Kentucky on a topo map. Except for immediate economic gain I do not understanding clear cutting in this terrian, there may be some justification that I just don't see. I'm not condeming clear cutting in general, I just wish someone would educate me on doing it in this terrain with no reseeding. If someone could explain it to me I would really appreciate hearing it.

[slowzuki]

In my area, the clearcuts are usually small enough to reseed naturally after a natural progression of pioneer species.

In areas with more crown land and bigger clearcuts they tend to replant.

There are other options to replanting such as leaving mature stands or patches in areas where they won't just all blow over.  Those finger like progressive cuts are used too sometimes.  Swampy or other foresters would know more on this.