The Forestry Forum

My dad stopped by tonight to show me the new winchester modle 70 270 that he wone.  after he talked about it for an hour he said that his gun cabnet was full.  I thought he was hinting at a biger gun cabnet for christmas.  but it turnes out that he said I might as well have it since I didn't all ready have a 270 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Lucky day for you 8) 8)  Where'd your Dad win it?  He had a lucky day also!!  I made a gun trade today.  I traded a High Standard .22 revolver for an SKS with a scope, 10 rd mag, sling, and 400 rds of ammo, even up.  I was happy.  I didn't need the SKS but I had two .22 revolvers.  My other one is an Iver Johnson that belonged to my Grandfather.  Our gun cabinets are now over flowing ;D 8) ;)

I have two wood gun cabnets for sale. Each holds 6 guns. One came from West Virginia and made of Black Cherry from Pennsylvania. The other is made from pine. Both have a base cabnet for shell storage etc.

corly 5  
he wone it from a volenter fire department chance

Ron

thanks fro the offer but the 18 gun one I built him is full and mon said that is enough >:(

Hey guys this is probably a good  place to ask this question.  My son ( 15 1/2 ) has been trap  shooting with my neighbor.  He's been hinting that he would like a shotgun of his own.  I know my neighbor has spent lots of money on his guns.  Can anyone tell me a decent shotgun he can use and how much I should spend.  He works with me on the mill and around the house so I guess this could be payment for his efforts.   He's been bugging me to go too.  I've always fished and only target shoot once in awhile.

Noble,

I used to trap shoot a lot.  When I started,  the best shotgun I had was a Ithica pump featherweight with a modified choke that I used for quail hunting.  I was used to getting off a fast shot so got along OK with it.  All the guys said that wasn't a trap gun and I needed something better.  I traded guns all the time back then and came across a 101 Winchester over under.  It had a vent. rib and was considered a trap gun.  I looked more like a trap shooter but couldn't do any better shooting.  Had a chance to buy a model 12 Winchester pump.  Although mine was a 'plain Jane' version, it met with the approval of my shooting buddies and I could hit pretty fair with it if I waited for the pidgeon to get out there a little way.  I always took my Ithica with me and on a windy day, I would shoot fast and win my share of the matches.

My advice would be to get a gun that is handy and safe to load single shells in.  Get one that fits and naturally points at where you're looking without thinking too much about it.  If you can hit with it,  don't worry about what your buddies think.

Noble

I have two SKS's. One I found in the jungle of Cambodia. It will never get traded.

My wife wonders why I have a gun cabinet full of guns. She doesn't know about some that are elsewhere.  ;)

Noble Ma,
I don't want to preach to the choir, but guns are dangerous, and kids today are often not as careful as when we grew up.

Don't get me wrong, every kid (especially boys) need a gun a dog and a Daddy, if a kid doesen't have a Daddy then we should be their Daddy.

Go for the Remington 870 pump 12 ga, police depts all over the nation use them. they are tough, shoot all the time, hard to break and not tooooo expensive. look for a longer barrel than one a police would use. Then lastly but most important teach him how to respect it.

I'm going to echo SawBilly, get a 12 gauge Remington 870, either the Wingmaster or the Express, with a 26" or 28" barrel. I have one. It's a great gun to start with and he can use it for more than just trap shooting. The barrels are easy to switch out too.

One thing you might do though is figure out how much you're willing to spend on a gun for him, then let him pick out what he wants. If he has some money of his own to add to what you're willing to spend he might get himself something really nice. Also talk to your neighbor and see what he's letting your son use and what he thinks about it.

Thanks for the advice guys.  We are both enrolled in a gun safety class.  I'm not sure if it's manditory in Mass but I like the idea.  Next we have to take a test to get an FID card.  We only have pellet and BB guns in the house now and they are locked up!!  I have talked with my neighbor and he's letting my son use his $2000 plus tramp gun!  I told my son don't expect to get anything any where near that.  I'll look into what the shotguns you guys suggested cost and than go to the boss!  The wife will be the hard sell.  It almost took an act of Congress to get the pellet and BB guns.  Thanks again for the advice.

I used to shoot allot, now that I'm poor...well, anyway find out what exactly he wants to use it for.  The 870 is a great gun but if he is planning on shooting trap seriously, find an old Browning single shot trap gun.  A used one that is modified to fit him will work wonderfully in this pursuit if he wants to shoot competative.  If he wants to hunt too then go with the 870 and get a barrel that takes choke tubes.  Start him off with an improved cylinder tube.  It will greatly boost his shooting confidence and he will become a better shooter with it.  Starting off with a full choke can be fustrating for a young shooter, remember part of the enjoyment is actually being able to hit something.  

The kid is a natural shooter.  He's averaging 18 or 19 out of 25.  He's only gone three times!  There's another kid that shoots real good and I guess he has an attitude about it.  Some of the old timers at the club have taken my son under their wing and have been giving him lots of pointers so he can beat the other kid.  I casually mumbled something about getting him a gun.  The wife barely looked up from her magazine and said oh OK.  That counts as a yes right!!!!  

"OK" is just shy of "you better do it or I'm going to hurt you", the way I have it figured. :D

She's going to deny ever having the conversation Tom.  That does count as a converstion right!!!  

Noble,

I'm sure those guys are like all trap shooters------ most of them have more than one trap gun and are continuously trading.  Once they know your son is looking for one,  they will be begging them to try one of theirs.  Since they like him anyway, they will probably fix him up with a good deal.  He should have a chance to try a few to see how he does with them.  If he has plans to do some hunting as well,a pump or over-under double would be my choice.  

Noble

You know Noble, that's a good idea.  I'll talk with my neighbor tonight and get his opinion.  So far it's been a positive experience for my son,  he should have a say about what he shots with.  That is as long as it's not going to break the bank.

Noble has it...  I bet those guys would cut your son a great deal on a great gun. 8)

  It is easier to beg forgiveness then to ask for permission. ;D
  I have a 870 20ga. that I bought when I was 16 with coin I earned while working the summer with my Pa.  I bet 2 tractor trailers could not haul all the game I have taken with that firearm.  I have hunted geese in Alaska to dove in Texas and deer in Missouri with it.  Went to the skeet range in Fort Hood and many of the Officers looked down at my scared stick with specks of rust and blueing worn off.  After several 24 of 25's I hit 25 of 25 and little else was ever said about my choice of shooting irons.
  Got a .410 break barrel for my 10th birthday.  Still have it and it is my favorite squirrel gun.  After the cake and ice cream we went out with a box of shells and poped a few off.  The my Pa sit up a cantalope on a fence post and I blew it apart with one shot!  WOW that was cool!  Then my Pa put a shell in the chamber and closed it up and cocked the hammer and called my best dog over.  He handed me the .410 and told me to put the barrel to the dogs head and pull the trigger.  Tears streamed down my cheeks and I shook all over.  I saw what the gun did to that cantalope and could not do that to my dog.  I was taught that there are targets, varmits, and game.  Once you pull the trigger you can not call the shot back and what you have done is done.  No one preaches gun safty more then me.  I taught my kids the same lesson and found it as hard as my Pa did.  I now teach Hunters Education and have shared the story many times.  Teach them young, teach them offten and do with them what you teach.
   We are free because of our history with fire arms.  There are many of us who are still here becasuse we were better then the others were.  Teach them respect, teach them manners, teach them to shoot, and show them how to be a MAN.  
  used soap box any one?
ARKANSAWYER

All good stuff guys.  I spoke with my neighbor and he said he was already on it.  He just hadn't had time to speak with me.  He also took the liberty to put our names on the list to join the club.  I wonder if that 30 pack that I sent over the other day helped to expedite all this ;D  

I was out at lunch and stopped by a local gunshop.  The guy there showed me a Mosberg 500 as well as the Remmington 870.  He said the US military used Mosberg guns because they could stand up to the military testing?  He almost sounded like it was my patriotic duty to buy one!  I saluted him and left. ;D

Noble,

In my opinion, a one finger salute would be appropriate in this case.  Mosbergs must have improved a lot igf they are now a trapgun.

Noble

I suppose a Mossburg might do the trick but I don't care for them. I also question that those are what the military use. Most places I've seen that put together combat shotguns use the 870 as the base.

That's why I'm bouncing all this info off you guys.  I respect the collective knowledge of the forum members.  I think there was about a $100 difference between the two guns. ( $280 - $380 )   I never impulse buy so I'll figure this all out one way or another.

$280 seems a bit high for the Mossberg.  I never cared for them myself, seemed cheap and tinny.  Look a bit harder I think you should be able to find an 870 for $280 but it's been a long time since I've looked at them.  I would also search gun shows and the classifieds for a used 870.  It's nearly impossible to wear one out so I wouldn't worry about it lasting.

I looked in a Dick's Sporting flyer last night and they were about $200 - $220.  Tonight's shooting night and I told my neighbor to get the word out that we'd like to buy something used.  I agree with Noble and the rest that advised us to have him shoot the gun first to see if he likes it.  The feedback on the Mossberg has been negative so far so maybe I'll shy away from them for now.

Hey smwwoody, I forgot to apologize for taking over your thread with my shotgun questions.  

Got to give a thumbs up at least once for a Mossberg.
I have a 20ga, bolt action, vented barrel, poly choke.
Real nice, GrandDad had it, gave it to my Dad, who gave it to me, and I will give it to my son. probably not worth much, but means a lot. Kicks harder than any 12 ga I have ever shot.

Hey guys it takes aspecial gun for trap shooting to be competive .The other guns talked about are field or skeet guns stick with the neibor and the club guys for there advice. The browning Bt-99 is a good choice and a fine investment. Good luck and join the lad for a great bonding time.   Mtn Jack

G'day Guys,

I prefer the 870 over the Mossberg.  Have just been through the research prosess myself for these two shotguns!
Spoke to some friends and also checked out reviews over the web, and the 870 wins out most of the time.  I suppose it helps too that my hunting rifle is a Remington! :D
Gun control here is very strong.  You must go through a safety and theory testing phase to obtain a licence to use/buy guns, and the Police speak to numerous referees before granting the licence.  If you want to get into pistol shooting, it is VERY hard to do, and the first of many steps, is that an existing member of a pistol club must recommend you to the Police, to even be considered for that licence.
You must have a special endorsement if you want to own AK style semi-auto weapons.
Cheers
Charlie.

SawBilly,

My favorite guns are ones that came down through the family.  Hang onto that Mossberg with pride.

Mtn. Jack,
Never too many Nobles !  That is a surname found here also.  

Kiwi,
Bet the criminals just love those tough gun laws.  They would take over our part of the country but they know every household is armed.  When I get to be King, I'm going to require that everyone has a gun and knows how to use it.

Noble

Noble,you would have my vote,if I could,,just beware.The last king was a fella by the name of George,they didn't like him or his tea(in Boston anyway) on account of Texas.Anyway,they replaced him with another George.This guy wore a wig,and had a set of wooden teeth that he made from a Cherry tree that he cut down when he was a boy.It sounds bizare,but it's all true.

I can not tell a lie.

Mossberg  8)   I have 3 of them 2 12's and 1 20!   The best shotgun I ever had is my Mossberg 500 12 gage my granddad gave me on my 12th barthday and I have put enouf shot down that tube that I put a new one on in the 80's and never jamed one time on me!!!   The other 12 I have was a Texas Rangers (I have his bill of sale) gun that I got as a gift fron a Phoenix cop frend of mine it's also a 500.   The 500 was bilt just for Armey Ordance and that was all thay had for a shotgun for years and years.   Not to knock Remington as I also have an 870 and love it as well!   I dont think I ever saw a gun I did not like ;D   At last count I had more long guns than I have room for in my safe and will always put my money into more guns, thay just go up and up in price. ;)
Andy

I agree Andy. I have a set of Reminton 1100s (all but the 28 ga.)
The best part is I have an average of $220 in them.
 :)

There's nothing wrong with the Mossberg 500, a good weapon.

I have a 20 gauge that I got some time ago at a DNR gun auction. My son, a professional guide out in Montana, now has it there.

No problems with it. Mossberg has improved its guns, especially the 500 model.

I was at my Mom's house for her 78th Birthday party and the subject of shotguns came up.  My Mom mentioned that she still had my Dad's guns in the house.  I thought he had given them all away to my cousins that hunt.  There is a 22, 4/10 pump, and 12 ga.  They are all over 30 years old probably closer to 35.  The 4/10 and 12 ga are Sears and Roebuck.  Do any of you guys know who might have made those guns?  They all look in good shape but I'm going to have my neighbor take a look at them.

Noble,

High Standard used to make at least some of the J.C. Higgins guns.  I had one of their pump shotguns about 35 years ago.  It was well made, but heavy.  My first .22 was a J.C. Higgins semi-auto, it looked good and shot good and still does.

If you can give me the modle # of your guns maybe I can find out more about them.  I'v got a lot of firearm reference books.

Noble

I've nothing to add to this conversation about identification but sure do want to butt in with a note about Nostalgia.

"Dad's" guns are special regardless of their make, condition or age.  So many folks look at their potential family heirlooms as quick dollars today when they are worth millions or more in memories.  I'm not accusing here,  just making an observation for the general consumption.

A 30 year old gun is really old to a 15 year old.  It's not so old to a 60 year old and, although maybe valuable, definitely is not old to a collector of antique firearms ........... but....... a 30 year old weapon today becomes an 80 year old weapon to your son when he is daydreaming about the excursions he had with his dad when he was young.

You guys on this forum know what I'm talking about because we are all of the same ilk but sometimes the thought needs to be passed on to the general public who may only be thinking of the quick buck.   :P

It may be something to consider before you sell that old good-for-nothing gun that you bought as a teenager to some stranger on the other side of town too. :-/ :'(

You can't put a value on heirlooms. Most of my guns were passed down to me when my father died.  Most are good guns that I wouldn't get rid of anyway, Winchester model 12's, Remington 1100, HiStandard target pistols, Walther P-38, ect.  But I got a few .22's that are near worthless to the normal person.  They were owned by my great-great uncle and will be passed on in the family when I'm gone.

I mainly buy assault rifles now because I don't need anymore hunting guns and I fear someday in the not-so-distant future the government will probably outlaw their sales.

Some of the Sears shotguns were made by Winchester.
I keep the 1100s in the gun cabinet to show off and take the old Sears pump through the plum thickets.   8) 8)

Noble_Ma post the model #'s of your guns and witch # is to what, I will look them up in my blue book of guns and tell you who made them.   Looks like Sears used about 300 gunmakers stamped "Sears" in place of the maker's name, most of them were good US names and all well made guns!   Thay are lower in value than if thay had the maker's stamp on them but still priceless if thay came from your Dad!
Andy

Tom, there's no way I'm going to sell any of these guns.  I agree with you 100%.  I will post the serial and model numbers so you guys can help identify them for me.  Thanks for the help.

A Mossberg 500 combo or a Mossberg 835 combo are worth looking at.  Clearance price on an 835 Crowne Grade Combo was only $300.  I've shot trap with my 835 bird gun and it works fine.

As far as the 870 goes, get one in a combo.  You can get a cylinder bore 20" barrel for it for those really brushy woods.  With practice you can get 4" groups at 100yds with a cylinder bore barrel and rifled slugs.  Read my posting on how I got my doe on 11/24/02

I just can't stand it.  I've got to show y'all the gun of which I'm so proud.  It's not been a show piece like you would see at a trap club but rather a utilitarian gun used for hunting mostly birds.  Grandaddy used it when he took Me and Charlie hunting.  He would take us one at a time.  I don't know if it was to make the trip special or if he didn't think he could handle but one of us at a time but it turned out special to us.  We got all of his attention for that day.

This is a Browning patented Remington mod.11 that Grandmamma bought for Grandaddy in 1913 for $30 dollars. He was always real proud of it and, as far as I know, it was the only gun he owned.  

He had a 22 automatic rifle one time that had the sear filed on it.  The police department took it from a man and gave it to Grandaddy, who was the Judge.  He didn't let it out but once or twice and I think finally gave it to the gunsmith. It was a piece of garbage and key-holed.

Anyway, here is Grandaddy's Remington Mod.11. :)


I remember wanting a rifle so-o bad.  I had seen the lever action 30/30's in the cowboy movies and thought they were the greatest weapons in the world.  Grandaddy gave me this little piece of wisdom.   He said, "Son,(pause for effect as Charlie says).....If it's so far away you need a rifle to reach it, it's too far away to pick up."  :P  Then he would spit. :D

Grandaddy sure liked his Beechnut.

Same gun that I used today to get my doe.  Nice shooting gun considering I got it for free ;D as a hnd-me-down from Dad.  Check out my hunting story.

JB                                       The Hunting Story (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,1895.msg23083.html#msg23083)

Tom if thats the Browning A5 made by Remington as there model 11 it was made from 1905 to 1910.   After that thay were Remington models 11 A, B, D, E and F and hold a beter values today, odd as I would think the older gun would have the  beter value.   It shows the 11 from $110 for 60% grade up to $350 for 100% like new, the newer 11A's and sutch are $140 to as much as $1800.   I know I would sooner sell the wife than my Grandaddy's gun and I know your the same but It's good to know what there selling for I think.
Andy

The only markings are on the barrel and list Browning patents through 1903.  I think it is a Browning patented Remington rather than an A5.

I looked closer at the 12ga of my Dad's yesterday.  I couldn't read all the writing on the barrel the first time.  ( eyes just don't work well on small stuff without my glasses ;D )  It turns out that the gun is made my JC Higgins.  Here's what was on the barrel; Sears Roebuck by JC Higgins  Model  66-12GA  2 ¾  chamber  583.605.  The 4/10 had; Sears model 21 410 GA  5832087.  Thanks for all the interest.  I bet Dad is smiling now that one of his boys are finally taking interest in his guns.  He has some hand guns too but I haven't checked them out yet.  I know he has a six shooter from his Dad that a cousin of mine asked for, at the funeral of all places!  I don't want to get started on that subject though.  >:(

Years ago I bought a pair of 12 ga Mossburg 500As.  I gave one to my brother as a Christmas gift and kept the other.  The gun came with two barrels.  A long shot barrel with a full choke and a 24" slugster with rifle sights.  I have only used the slugster.  I must say I am very pleased with this gun as I have yet to miss any deer I have taken a shot at.  More than once the deer dropped right where it stood and I did not have to track it.  The only thing I would change about the gun is the rattle of the pump slide - don't like any extraneous noise when I am waiting for bambi.

I played around with slugs once.  I thought that you needed a heavy load and heavy shot to down big game like a deer.  Then I realized that Florida Deer aren't that big.  :-/

Granddaddy let me shoot a few slugs in my 410 and also in the Model 11 12 gauge.  I guess I didn't hurt a modified barrel by doing it.  The 410 with a slug makes a good deer gun. When I saw what a 12 gauge slug would do, I realized that I didn't really need that much weight.  Most of the Shotgunners I've known down here have used 00, 0 or even 1's and 2's. The spread ruins meat too but it sure is handy when shooting through brush like a lot of our shots call for.  It just seems that every deer I've seen has been standing behind a branch or gallberry.  Those that eat my grapes from my arbor are out in the road and would be a clear shot with anything if they would stand there long enough.  One jump and they disappear. :o :D :-/

Tom if it dont say Remington it's more than likley an A-5, A for auto.   If it's an A-5 it will have Brownings choke codes on the rear left side of the barrel.
* = full
*- = improved modified
** = modified
**- = improved cylinder
**S = skeet
*** = cylinder
INV. =threaded cylinder for choke tube systom
INV.PLUS = same as above and back bored
As to value, it's a lot more on a A-5.   It starts at $250 for a compleet gun (in other words one that was used like a ballbat) and runs to $5000 and beter!  
If it's got one of the codes it's a Browning A-5 or has a barrel off an A-5 on it.
Andy

It says:

Remington arms Union Metalic Cartridge Co.something something union county NY USA  or something like that.  Can't see with these eyes.  need a young fellow.

Browning patents. 1900 1901 1902 1903

yep looks like asterisks on the base of the barrel. I know it is supposed to be Modified. Actually they look like over stamps rather than asterisks.  something like yxy- but whoevere did it screwed up.

It's worth more as Granddaddy's gun regardless of what is.

I still have the pine stick he whittled for a plug in it.

Noble_Ma
The 410 is a High Standard model K2011.   Now when I go look at the High Standard part of the book there is no model K2011 listed so it must have been made to a Sears onley patern.   Thats all I can tell you on that one but I bet the sale value is very low on it, $20 to $60 mabe if it's a brake over singel shot(?).


J.C. Higgins is a Sears trademark name like Craftsman.   Now the bad part is that I cant tell who made that one from my book as all thay say about  J.C. Higgins guns is thay were made fron 1946 to 1962 and that name has been on meny hundreds of various models of guns.   Thay then tell how and why.   When a maker had an over run of a model thay would sell it to Sears (or some others)  with cheeper woods and missing some of the features of the brand name gun.   So it's kinda the bargen Sears gun, a tot of the line gun without the bells on it.

So what you have is some good shooting iron!   Now a good thing to do befor you get a box of shells and head to the range with it is take it to a gunsmith and get the head space checked on them!   It's not as important on a shotgun as a rifle but still the wrong head space can kill someone.   You can buy head space a gage for about $30 or so if you want but the smiths check it all out and to me it's money well spent.   When I was a kid I hunted dove for 2 years with a gun that would open up when fired becous It never crosed my mind the thing could kill me.   My dad used it one day and when it did that to him and I sead "it's been like that for a long time and still works fine" I got my but beet!   Dad took it to a smith and for 5 bucks it was good as new, I rember thinking for want of 5 bucks and an hour at the gunsmith shop I could have been killed.

Have fun with your boy, the best time I ever had with my Dad was around guns!
Andy  

Word must have gotten around that there are some good sized deer around here if looking at truck tags tells you anything. Bow season has been on here and there were several from Georgia and a couple from Florida at our one motel.
Rifle season starts this weekend and yesterday, while having lunch at one of two restaurants, two Hummers pulled in. One was from Lousianna and the other from Texas. Both had trailers with big 4 wheelers and the biggest ice chests I have ever seen. I got to visiting with them and when asked if I had seen many deer I replied....."Oh, a few. Please take as many as you want."

Thanks for the info Andy.  I already spoke with my neighbor about getting them to a gunsmith.  It just happens that theirs two at the club I'm joining with my son.  I have my application in and should be a associate member by the second week in Dec.  You'd think I just gave my son a million bucks.  He is so excited I almost had to hose him down last night.  Got me a little misty eyed.  Thanks for all the help guys, I'm looking forward to it too.

Andy,

We evidentally looked in the same gun book as I found the same data on Noble's guns.  I was looking at the mossberg 500 in my book and it said when Smith and Wesson stopped making their shotgun,  Mossberg bought the rights and called it the modle 500.  The book said that occured in 1985.  That would explain why that modle is held in higher esteem than some of the other modles.

Noble

Hi Noble
I have a lot of gun books but the best one for odd makers is the Blue Book of Gun Values and I have the 19th and 22nd editions of that hear.   The other one that I use a lot is Gun Parts of the World, it's chocked full of info but thay want you to call on a lot of Sears stuff and ask them.   Also have books to date and ID Whinchester, Browning and others.

My Mossberg 500 that I got from my Grandpa was made in 1962, thay came in 12, 20 and 410 gage mine is a 12.   I do see what your talking about.   All S&W shotguns were made by the Howa co. over in Japan and in 1984 Mossberg bought the parts and rights to all S&W's shotgun line but I cant find what guns the were.   Could be the 500 and the S&W pump were made with the same Jap parts all those years.   I'm on it  :P :P ??? :P
Andy

OK I have the scoop.   Mossberg models 1500, 1700, 3000 and the 1000 auto were S&W's guns, all made by Howa in Japan and stamped S&W untill 1984.   Mossberg picked up the parts and rights and bildt them in New Haven for 2 or 3 years then stoped.   It looks like the ones made by Mossberg are worth $30 to $100 more than the S&W stamped.   I wonder if thats becous of the namestamp, USA/Japan thing or that US gun people cant stand S&W's sell out of gun rights! ??? :P :D   The 500 was Mossbergs first pump shotgun and came out in 1962.   Befor that thay had brake open, bolt and lever shotguns but no pump or auto it looks like.   Well that was a nice bit of dusting off old books. :D
Andy

I've got a Sears 20 gauge pump.  It was made by Win. for Sears.  If I remember right it's a Win mod 1200.  I killed a bunch of grouse with it over the years.  Not a real good wing gun as it's full choke.  I was never much into flying shots anyway.  I much preferred to ground swat em.  I never hunt for the sport anyway it's only for the meat.  I've got the 2000 edition of the Blue Book of Gun Values and it is a handy book to have around.  I've got a 12 gauge pump around here somewhere that was made by Noble Mfg.  Bought it at an auction for $50 20 years ago.  Good gun that killed a few birds for me.  My favorite shot gun is a Springfield 12 gauge pump I bought at a pawn shop for cheap.  It's sawed off to 18 1/8".  You don't have to aim it to hit a flying bird.  Just point it in the general direction. ;) :D ;D ;D 8)  I've got guns from both my Grandfathers and they couldn't be bought for any price.

Andy,

I've got a guntraders guide from the 50's (that's when I started trading)  It has pictures of a Mossberg "slide action"  with a plastic slide.  It was really ugly.

I've got one grandad's old Mod.17 Remington 20 ga pump.  He wore it out quail hunting and used it when he and my great Uncle Amos and a neighbor captured a guy that robbed the Rockbridge Mo. bank.  That was in the 20's.

I've got my other grandad's .22 single shot.  I killed a whack of squrrils out of his mulbery tree with it.  After learning a little about guns and looking at it with an adult eye,  I'd be afraid to shoot it now.

Noble

You are right.   I just found the model 200K and 200D made in 1955, I think thay are the 500 without all the safetys on them.   Also there gun that put them on the map was the model K 16 round pump .22 S, L and LR thay put out in 1922.   Befor that Oscar Mossberg was a freelance gun designer and sold designs to most of the makers of the day.   I just found that he was the designer of the Brownie .22.

The gun that I love the most is a hunk of junk Mossberg 410 bolt shotgun.   I love becous when I was small Grandpa would sit on the back porch in fall and pop birds in his peach trees.   I would come home from school in the afternoon and sit with him and even take a shot now and then.   I had a very hard time geting my hands on that gun, after Grandpa pased on in 1972 my uncle got it and when he pased in 1999 my his oldest son took it and I was quite bumed out but glad to know it was safe.   Then under my Christmass tree in 1999 I found that old gun in a glass frount cace with big photos of me and Grandpa out on the porch! :'( :D 8)
Andy

Now there's some good memories.  I can feel'm all the way down here.

YOU BET! 8)

I thought I would update you guys on what I decided on for a gun for my son.  After a lot of time spent asking questions and researching, I've decided on a Remington 1187.  I was going to get the 870 but my son has been working with me on the mill and other projects around the house with no griping.  He's the only one home with his older sister and brother at college, so he gets to do all the work with Dad ;D  I thought I'd show him what hard work gets you.  Thanks again for all the feedback.

Besides it is Christmas ;D

Sounds like a great Christmas gift for him! ;D (and you)

I just want to add thanks for bringing him up the way you are!!!   We need more Dad's around like you today!

Merry Christmas
Andy

There's gonna be more than one great big smile when that package is opened.

Noble

Your a good man Noble_Ma, I remember getting my first gun on Christmas Day, still one of my all time favorite gifts.

Thanks guys, ;D  I just got back from paying for it.  I have to admit that I'm pretty excited too.  I got the highly polished walnut stock.  There's a little fancy scroll work on it too.  

That's a great gift 8) 8) 8)

Pics!  We need a pic of the gun and a close-up of the stock.
Great gift :)

And the smiles on the faces of the recipient and his Dad.

Did ya break it in yet?

Well believe it or not my son and I just got our FID cards from our local police department!  It took us about 6 weeks after taking all the firearm safety courses to get them.  They even run your name through the FBI!  So my son and I just got back from the local gun club's range.  We got to walk about a half mile down the dirt road covered in about 4" of fresh snow and talk about shooting the gun together for the first time.  I've never seen him so excited.  I was too ;D  We were the only two out there and it truely was a special moment.  We shot two boxes and just sat there and talked.  Talked about the gun, talked about the peace and quiet being in the woods and than walked back throught the fresh snow.  He was more than happy to go down to the basement with me and clean and lock up the gun until trap night.  I don't have pictures and will try and post one of the gun and my son.  I'm not sure any picture could accurately capture just how special that time in the woods with my son really was.  Thanks again to all of you guys that offered your experience, knowledge and stories.

-Noble

Here's a picture of the gun.

(https://forestryforum.com/images/YaBBImages/userpics/1187Premier.jpg)

  That's great!!!
  I am available for adoption. ;D
ARKANSAWYER

Bring me up a rat terrier and you got a deal ;D  My border collie is gettin old and needs a puppy to livin her up some!

Don't you wish you could make times like that last forever Noble?

Nice gun, come to Iowa next fall and we'll chase up some pheasants for you to try it out on.

Thanks for the offer Norm.  Sounds like a good road trip for my and my son.

Nice gun!  What gauge is it?  What's an FID card?

It's a 12ga Corley5.  A FID card is a firearm identification card.  You need one to buy guns and ammo.  My son is only fifteen so he can only buy ammo.  Don't you need some sort of firearm card?   Up here you can't get one if you have ever committed a felony or have restraining order against you.   What do you need in your state?

Florida is still a free state.

Remember the good old days when an NRA member could mail a check to the DCM ( I think that is waht it was called-----the Director of Civilian Markanship) and recieve a surplus military firearm?

Back then our leaders felt that every household had the right to defend itself.  They had the idea that if people were familiar with firearms and could shoot,  we would be less vulnerable to anyone who would want to do our country harm.  Later they evidentally decided that it was silly to think that any group could come on our soil and do us any harm.

Dad and I each bought an O3A3 Springfield @$10.00 each,  A .30 M1 carbine @ $18 each and a .45 ACP for (I believe) $20 each.

We still have them and are willing and able to use them for their original intended purpose.

Noble

Tom,

Does that mean that your local police department has no criteria that you need to pass or qualify for before you purchase a firearm and/or ammo?  I guess the only ones applying for FID cards are the honest ones :-/  I'm not sure if that's good or bad.  I know they did check with the FBI here to see if I checked out.  I think that's new since 9-11.

Noble,

I believe that you can still get a military surplus gun now.  The only thing up here is that you have to have a registered gun club certify that you have spent X amount of hours shooting the gun to qualify to buy one.  I don't think that's a bad rule?  I have a few friends that have purchased these guns through this system.  I'm just not sure of how many hours it is?  Maybe some of the other Mass guys can answer that question?

Yep, that means that I can buy whatever I have the money to buy as long as it's not required to have special federal permits as you would need for a  50 cal. machine gun or 106 recoiless rifle or an 81 mm Mortar.  That's how it should be too.  

We all have to be checked by the Feds for not being a felon but the only reason I need to talk to a law enforcement officer in Florida is if I want to apply for a concealed weapon permit.

I'll be honest, if I had to get some bureaucrat's permission before I could do "anything",  I'd be looking to move.

I've never been convinced that the likes of Ted Kennedy knowing what I own does anything but put me under his thumb.

My Grandmom used to tell me that the Japanese didn't swarm all over California because they thought that the American Citizen was armed to the teeth and they weren''t prepared to take on an Army of that magnitude.  I would have to say that the Imperial Japanese Army was right and it's a good thing they kept their war front on controllable ground.

We don't need permits, regulations or inspections for butcher knives or air rifles or Muzzleloaders or Bows and Arrows......yet.  The courts are full of folks who have used them for dishonest means.  When one person gets enough power that he controls another person, it's only a matter of time before the control is complete.

Let's not forget that it's "We, the people......." not "We, the subservients.......".

I don't mean to get on a soapbox but My Freedom means more to me than "what someone else will allow me to have".  I think more along the lines of "what are they trying to take away".

Watch the papers (where they still allow guns to be advertised) and buy from an individual. That way there is no paper trail. Buy from a dealer and they have a record of what you have. We have enough iron for a platoon and only one pistola has paper.   ;)

I can be a man of many words.  But for me,  the right to defend myself, my family, my property, my neighborhood, and my country is fundamental to being a free man.  Take my firearms, take my freedom.

We do have a 3 day wait in Florida for purchasing handguns, or those long guns that have been designated "assault weapons."  I guess the shotguns and hunting rifles are exempt because you can't kill anybody with them. ::)

I don't even mind there being a paper trail.  I don't care who knows I have a gun or rifle.  What I don't believe in is that paper trail being required; or having to get permission from that person who knows I have it to acquire or keep it.

I'll concede that a 155mm Howitzer isn't something I need to keep out in the barn.  I'll let the Military take care of that level of armorment.  

My permit is called a Class A Large Capicity LTC.   It's up to the local police to determine what type you get seeing that they supposedly know you.  You have to submit two letters of reference along with a "short story" on why you want it.  I was told by most of the people I talked with to apply for the Class A and settle for whatever you get.  I know it sounds strange to some of you guys but that's life where I live.  It seems that most states require more for the LTC versus regular permit.  

Not being a Smart A** but why should it be anybody's business "why you want it"?  Would they accept "Because I want it" as a valid answer?  I can see it now. "To terrorize the entire population of the north east United States".

Submitting two letters of reference and a "Short Story" to the designated Government official sounds like y'all have already had freedoms removed.  Having to apply and settling for what you get (from this controlling authority) would be pretty demeaning to me.  Man!, and I have trouble with the Building Inspector and the zoning dept. ???

It's amazing to me how the majority of an electorates constituancy can be persuaded to give up little pieces of freedom from time to time until finally they will accept total domination.  That's how I see it and it's scarey.  It just doesn't make sense to me that someone else knows better how I should lead my life than I do.  I can understand society having rules.  We need them to survive. But they should be in the context of "Don't shoot somebody" rather than "you can't have a firearm".   You know, if they only gave you one bullet then you could only kill one person.  Then they could put you in jail when you went back for the second bullet.

Come to think of it, I wonder why that hasn't been considered? You only need one well-placed bullet to kill a hog.

Well, maybe they could be a nice bureaucrat and allow you to have five at a time. That way you could fill your six shooter and still have an empty chamber to keep you from hurting yourself.

Yeah, I'm being facetious, I know.  I don't mean this to be taken personally.  I'm just blowing off steam. Lost freedom is still where I'm coming from though.

Here in Mi you can buy any long gun with out any permits.  You just go into your store of choice pick out what you want and if you pass the instant background check they'll sell it to ya if you've got the money.  For handguns a permit to purchase from your local sheriff dept is required.  There are no restrictions on ammo sales that I'm aware of.  I get red flagged on long gun purchases from events in my youth and have to wait until the next day to buy the gun unless I go to the sheriff dept first and get a permit to purchase a handgun.  With that you can buy any gun with out the instant background check and possible wait.  I don't like the idea of needed a card to purchase ammo.  I really don't care who knows what guns I have.  They'll have a HE!! of a time taking them away from me anyway.  Even if they could find anything to take.

My Dad has told me all my life
"Boy, I did not get shot to sh** on Okinawa so you would let someone steel your freedom from you.  My Dad gave it to me and I have kept it and I gave it to you now you got to KEEP it, without it you have nothing!!"    

We are slowley loseing the war on evil hear with the loss of our freedom.   Had we lost WW-2 I think we would be in about the same shape as we are now onley got hear faster.   What did thay die for and what good came of what thay ALL gave this countrey if we just hand over our freedoms like thay have no meaning?   What is the great USA without freedom?   The whole thing is based on freedom and it's ALL that makes us not Mexico, not England, not Russia and without FREEDOM we are just a hollow husk soon to blow away!!
Andy

   In Korea there are no firearms in the hands of the people and if it were not for the US Army it would be a nice walk to Soul from the DMZ for North Korea.  You could not walk through the Ozarks like that.  As the Red Coats found out many years ago so will the next bunch that try to invade our soil.   I vote any one out of office that tries to take away any gun rights.  Most crooks do not go to Wal Mart with a personal check and buy a gun to go rob a bank.  They steal it or borrow it and never file any paper work.  You have the right to own or not to own but it is the ability that we must keep.  
   It is bath tubs and cars that are killing more people then guns or war every year.  We just had a guy here crash with no insurance, tags, or license and was drunk to boot.  He will get 1 year in jail and be out in 90 days.  We have the laws in place but no enforcement.  Kill some one with a car, or gun then make sure they can never do it again.  And enforce the laws on the books now or get new judges.
   We must fight for our rights and keep them.  It is these good ole boys with guns in their hands, truck, boat, house, barn and waist bands that keep us FREE.  
  I will now pass along Tom's soap box.
ARKANSAWYER

I don't want to start a pi$$ing contest here, just some more thoughts.  I believe rules and regulations come from what society perpetrates in your region.  Politicians tend to make knee jerk reactions to these conditions.  The larger cities in Mass have very large diverse ethnic populations.  There are some ethnic groups that are just plain ignorant and disrespectful.  There are countless shooting in these areas every day.  They happen in neighborhoods that also have law abiding citizens.  The strong gun regulations are supposedly a deterent to these occurances.  There has been a long running battle about gun regulations in this state.   I feel we're losing the fight.  I hear what you guys are saying about losing freedom.  This is the state I was born in and it's where my family and friends are too.  

Ironic,  areas with the most restrictive gun laws have the highest murder and crime rate.  When Florida passed the right to carry law, violent crime fell dramatically - as they have in the 30+ states that have followed their lead.  But socialist in this country still clamor for more gun laws and won't be happy until all are outlawed and we have another civil (or uncivil) war.

I have some long-time acquaintances who live in Pasadena, CA.  From time to time we'd talk about gun control. They were not radical but thought more control was needed - especially on the federal level.  That was until the last riots in LA hit.  The next time we spoke,  they were asking what models would be best for home defense.  It became clear to them that the police were not there to "protect and defend" but to draw the chalk outlines and write the reports.

Son Chris was in the Marines in San Diego when the riots hit LA.  He was part of the Marine contingent that went in to help regain control. He said, "Dad,  we went in with our toys and the Crips and the Bloods didn't want to play anymore."  He also commented that the local peoples were very pleased to see them and were very supportive.

Noble Ma,

I understand what you are saying about those undesirable jerks that get on mind altering substances and use really bad judgement and get involved in illegal activities resulting in someone's death.  I don't think they ought to have guns-------I sure as hell don't think they should be elected SENATOR!!!

Noble

Boy Noble,when you take aim,you don't miss :D

The other thing you can read into Noble's post is:

Know what you believe in
Stand up for what you believe in
       and
Vote for what you believe in

I can say "I do" to all of the above.When ever politics are being discussed with me,I ask the other person if they voted in the last election.If the answer is no,I tell them they don't have a say,in my opinion.(the answer is no,quite often)

My use of guns against Bears in my yard, has made me unpopular with some of my distant neighbors.I have a ally with my close neighbor, Bob Greene,who is an American WWII Vet.
Bob and I aren't very politically correct,in any sense of the word.
We even believe in God.

I'm lucky to live in North Dakota where political correctness isn't a big deal. We still have Indians and buffalo up here and get along well with both. You can still have a rifle in the back window of your pickup truck and nobody thinks anything of it. I've shot dead limbs out of the trees in my yard and no one thought anything of that either. It isn't unusual to have 20 guns and a thousand rounds of ammo. My grandmother was the first woman in Indiana licensed to carry a handgun. I still have the gun and wish we still had her. She taught me how to hunt, clean game, and to respect living things. She said things like "if you aren't going to eat it then don't kill it." She also said, "never register your guns because that is the first step to loosing them".  I live by what my grandma taught me because she was a very wise woman.

In ND we have to pass a background check and wait a couple of  days when buying firearms. I don't have a problem with this because there are a few nuts out there that shouldn't have guns. I can also understand why some people are pushing for gun control, especially someone who lost a friend or family member in a shooting. They feel the need to fight back and I can't blame them. It's too bad they will end up taking the guns away from the good guys by enacting gun control laws. This spring I went to Switzerland and found it very interesting that every home has at least one gun. All the men are required to serve in the military and each is issued a weapon to keep at home when he gets done with active duty. Switzerland has a very low crime rate and I don't doubt that this is a factor. We also have a pretty low crime rate here too, especially out west where there are a lot of cowboys.

Paul_H do you have any good recipes for bar? My mom used to make the best barbeque bear meat. My dad shot them in the yard too if they didn't go away after a couple of days. DanG they were good eatin'

Mark

Mark,
It's interesting you mentioned Indians and Switzerland.I live beside a reserve,and Harry,a native indian in his 70s, will take any Bear I shoot.(not many,if possible)He eats the meat and takes the claws&teeth.

The other person who has taken one,is Dani.He is about my age,and is Swiss.He has said exactly the same thing you've mentioned about Switzerland,and the military.I know the same was true when I visited my cousins in Norway a few years back.After their 2 years,they would go back for 2 weeks a year for training.They all had weapons in their homes,and some of the older ones could remember being occupied during the War.

I don't have any recipies for Bear,but have been to Dani's for supper,and his wife did a great job of it.I have heard that the lard rendered from Bear is excellant.

Hi Paul

Yep bear grease is great stuff. I once saw a show on TV where an old guy from down in New Mexico was using it to predict the weather by watching the patterns that form in the grease. I rendered down a bunch but mine just turned solid when I put  it on the window sill because it was too cold. It's a beautiful clear amber color and looks nice in a canning jar setting in the window. I used to use it on my boots to keep them soft. The meat is good eating but the trick is to par boil it in water, drain the water, wash the meat and pan, and then repeat 2 more times. The fat has a bad taste and you have to get rid of it. After that my mom would break it into small chunks, put it on a cookie sheet, cover with brown sugar, onions, and barbeque sauce and the bake at about 375F for a hour. There is nothing better!

The last bear we had was back in 1986, the game warden had to shoot one because it had became a nuisance at the resorts. It was a nice year-old sow that weighed about 150 lbs. He dropped it off about 10:00 o'clock at night, gutted it, and helped me hang it in the garage. The next day my dad came over to help me butcher it. While we were waiting for my dad I took my son, who was then six, out to show him the bear. When my dad got there the boy came in and got his mom's paring knife. My dad said "where you going with that knife" to which my son replied "I'm going out to peel me that bear!"

Have a good weekend

Mark

HEY! I got an exploding wedge for trade on the for sale board. No permit required!I think

I get Black Bear now and again from the families I saw for next to the Okeefenokee Swamp.  None have talked about parboiling but they are careful about which cuts they eat. All I've ever had was cut up into 1 or 2 inch cubes or a 5 lb roast and cooked in a pan in the oven with onions and potatoes and carrots like a Beef pot roast.   Man it's good and tastes a lot like beef .......but not quite. ;D

Noble_Ma, I admire you for sticking to your guns ::) on this issue, even though I disagree with you. Could you come up with some statistics on the shootings in your state, that reflect the percentage of incidents that involve stolen guns?
I don't think you have any greater ethnic diversity there, than we do in this area. My county is 58% Black, and 16% Mexican. There are a few Indian, Arab, and Oriental families, as well. Something over 90% of the violent crimes, here, are committed by Blacks. Leon County, where Tallahassee is located has a Black population of about 25%, and over 90% of violent crimes are committed by Blacks there, too. Statistically, almost 100% of shootings are done with stolen firearms. Gun control laws have zero effect on this segment of the firearms trade.
We don't have a gun problem, but rather a massive social problem in a major portion of our society.
I don't have a problem with the 3 day wait on handgun purchases. There have been a few crimes of passion, where newly purchased guns were used, and if this will prevent some of them, I'm all for the cooling off period.

Better watch it Jeff.  The Exploding Wedge Service is apt to crack down hard on ya. :D ;D ::)

I had an exploding wedgie, once. :o :o

There's a waiting period Jeff.   We'll talk to you next week sometime. :D

DanG, I  was trying to explain why this state has such tough gun laws.  Being a law abiding citizen, I don't have a problem with applying for a FID or LTC permit.  I do believe that felons and people with restraining orders shouldn't have guns.  Once you commit a felony, you should lose your right to own a gun.  Just like prisoners shouldn't have the freedoms that they have in prison.  Once we get our permits there is no waiting period to purchase firearms.  As far as having references, most employers ask for them too.  I think I would like to know something about a person before I sign his permit to carry a weapon.  

Noble, I didn't voter for any of the Kennedy's either.  The key word here is vote.  I've never missed voting since I registered at 18.  I consider voting to be the most precious right I have as an American.  

Hey Guys,

Don't look now , but I think we are all on the same side!!!

Wouldn't have expected anything else from such a level headed bunch ;D

Noble

A lot of good thoughts about freedom, gun control, and voting but there is one more thing that can be done to protect our rights.  Get the young ones involved!!  So many people live in urban areas anymore they will never have the opportunity to own a gun much less use it.  If you get just a few hooked on competitive shooting they will support firearm ownership for life.   On my farm I have a 50-yard rimfire range, 100-yard range, and small bore  silhouettes set up along with hi-power swinging targets at 340 yards.  I get everyone I can to come out and do a little shooting.  You ought to see the eyes light up on a 13 year old when they hit their first chicken on the smallbore silhouette.
Larry

This thread has turned to the talk of rights so this is probably a dandy place to post this.

http://www.freep.com/news/locmac/flag7_20030207.htm

We have something similar to what Larry talked about on our farm (except we don't let our chickens sit on the silhouettes ;D) There are so few places to go, except joining a gun range, to shoot even in rural Iowa. It also educates the younger ones that have only shot at ranges when I fill up gallon milk jugs and freeze them what a gun can do to someone. It's not like on TV where they get up and walk away into the sunset.  I hope Noble_MA doesn't feel like he has to defend anything he's doing exactly what more people should be, teaching the next generation about the safe use of firearms.

You know Norm_F that's why I first replied to this post.  I was asking the Forum members about their thoughts on what gun to buy for my son.  The same members that posted their opinions on gun laws were also the first guys to post what they thought about guns.  That's what's so great about this forum, people are willing to talk and offer their experience.  I actually took their advice to heart and made a purchase based on what was said here.  

I just wanted to add one more thing to the gun law subject.  At the gun club that I belong to, we have monthly meeting that discuss the gun laws in our state as well as other club issues.  We have a committee that brings the members up to speed with any new laws as well as pending laws.  They also let us know about the politicians that are sponsoring them along with their office phone numbers.  We actually call these guys and let them know that they are in our district and we don't like or like their laws.  That's about all we can do to do our part on this matter.

Your right Other Noble.  Involvement is the crux of the whole argument for freedom.  We can all complain till the chickens roost and get no where. Staying involved and especially staying in touch with the elected officials who get done what we want done, is the only way to go.

Great thread guys. I had not been able to read much lately, well cause I gotta work 12 hour days to pay some politicians' pension fund.

First, my Granddady left me:
1) 1892 Winchester .2520 (Great varmint gun, made $150 one Summer killin' woodchucks on a dairyfarm)
2) 1894 Winchester .3030 octogon barrel (Just like all them cowboys had  :) )
3) A Ithaca double barrel 20 ga.shotgun. (Best gun you could ever want for grouse and bunnies. Little light for pheasants, but if your quick....)

$5million and they can be yours 8)

As for the talk about ownership rights.... I have a tough time even comprehending someone trying to take my right to bear arms away. I take it from the tone of voice in some of these posts that we would have a downright ugly time of it should someone be foolish enough to try.

One thought about Mr. Kennedy and his possible desire to see gun control... I sympathize with his loss of two brothers. Of course, maybe we should outlaw cars, bridges, and booze as well.

Lastly, I'll give up my flag when they pry my cold dead fingers.....

klh

PS: Michigan hasn't gone so far left that they would outlaw guns....yet.

Just a Texas observation.  Texas has a shall issue Concealed Handgun License, no permit involved.  Good for four years and politicians have little impact on it.  You take course work, study the law, and show proficience with handgun of choice.  Once issued the License cuts out the back ground check for the feds, in that Texas performs a more intense one for the license.  about 2% of Texans hold that license.

Texas has a prison population that reflects that of others that have talked here, it is a social problem, not a firearms problem.  Besides, when you can kill 100 people with fire in a subway, or 30 with pepper sprey, the guns become less of a problem.

Arizona and Alaska are also "shall issue" states like Texas but do things even beter as thay have open cary laws so I can go where ever I want with my .454 on my hip with NO permit.   The way I see it that IS freedom and when the gOOberment has sutch fear of it's subjects that it wants to disarm them it's no longer "of the people"!   Dont mater how agenst the law you make guns the thugs of the world will still have them.   Thay make guns right INSIDE prison walls all the time right under the nose of all the gards and do a fair job so it's just not real world to think gun laws can do aney good at keeping them from outlaws hands.   I dont see that guns have ever been a problem, thay are just a tool that can kill if misused but so is a chain saw and meny other things.   Soon will we need a license to buy a new chain saw?   The way we are heading now I think so. ::)
Andy

If only the whole nation had Vermont's laws -- no license required to carry, concealed or not, and you can carry anywhere. Vermont is surely no hotbed of crime and mayhem.

Indiana has been a "shall-issue" state for as long as I can remember and we have some pretty easy requirements to get the permit. Pass the background check, be fingerprinted, and pay $25 and you're good to go for four years. I remember an Indianapolis TV station did a news story about who had carry permits some years back. They got hold of a list of carry permit holders and it was mostly doctors, lawyers, engineers, pharmacists, and house wives.

The best thing America could do to eliminate violent crime would be to repeal all gun-control laws. Patrick Henry said it best: "The great object is that every man be armed..."

I got an idea where Ray Sealens can stick that big flaypole :-X
New hampshire has some ok carry laws.No permit for handguns as long as it`s not concealed or loaded in a vehicle.With a $10 Fee and a ck with the local law You can get a 4 year carry permit.You can carry loaded concealed anywhere except a school,courtroom or federal building.No safty coarses or fingerprinting. usally takes 2 or 3 days.The first one I got I didn`t even have an ID.Just a phone and electric bill to show my resedence.
Noble
 I have both the 97 featherweight,97 ultra fearterweight and the 870 express. My kids (7-16 years old) like the 97`s over the 870 because of the shorter stock and are much lighter and easier for them to handle.They are also bottom load and bottom eject so they are good for left and right handed shooters.I do reload on the light side for the younger kids, About 1050fps with 1oz of # 71/2 does fine ;)
                             Lenny

Lenny,

I bought a Remington 1187 Premier for my son at Christmas.  He's done real well with it at trap shooting.  I brought my Dad's 40+ year old JC Higgins 12 ga two weeks ago and my son shot that for the night.  At the end of the night he told me that he would shoot Poppy's gun and I could shoot his for now.  It was good to see he had respect for my dad's old gun.  He actually shot well with it.  The only problem is the stock butt is a little hard and doesn't offer much give.  I'm looking into getting a new butt for it.  

cant remember what state it was but just until a few years ago whan a man was released from prison the law said they had to give him a horse or a mule with a saddle , 20$gold and a 30-30 rifle maby az  :P