iDRY Vacuum Kilns

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Vacutherm iDry input

Started by schwanee, August 04, 2018, 07:41:26 PM

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Glenn1

I charge $1.00 a bf for each 10 day period. The second 10 day period is prorated.  Also, unless the boards/slabs are under 25% MC, I won't dry them.  
Vacutherm IDry, Nyle 53 Kiln, New Holland Skid Steer, Kaufman Gooseneck Trailer, Whitney 32A Planer

Stephen1

Quote from: Glenn1 on June 07, 2019, 09:34:39 PM
I charge $1.00 a bf for each 10 day period. The second 10 day period is prorated.  Also, unless the boards/slabs are under 25% MC, I won't dry them.  


I like that formula, $1.30 up here. I like the 10 day cycle time. Even the 4/4 lumber takes a little over the 7 days advertised time



Glen are you taking the lumber green? 
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

tule peak timber

Quote from: Glenn1 on June 07, 2019, 09:34:39 PM
I charge $1.00 a bf for each 10 day period. The second 10 day period is prorated.  Also, unless the boards/slabs are under 25% MC, I won't dry them.  
Very interesting..............
persistence personified - never let up , never let down

Just Right

WDH  The pecan came out great.  10/4 was sawn a day before I put it in the kiln.  Took about 16 days.  Was about halfway in the stack.  No checking, cupping, and stayed straight.

 

A guy from FL brought me another load when he picked up the first load.

I am still getting a handle on pricing.  Mostly 1.00 a BF,  thicker stuff 1.50 a BF.

Glenn . . . I get your point with the 25% . . . .I do think some wood species need SOME air drying before putting it in the IDRY. . . . . Cherry because it is Cherry,  Walnut to bring the colors out etc.  But I feel getting it all the way down to 25%,  is like leaving some money on the table,  and not getting the full advantage of this machine.
If you are enjoying what you are doing,  is it still work?

Stephen1

EWP 11" x 11" 12' long beam in the kln. The first go around I left it in 6 days and got worried I would dry it to much. I tested it at 145F and the delmhorst said 18-20% depending on where i poked it. I let it sit for a 10 days in the shop and reinstlled it in the kiln. I left it in for 7 days and emptied the kiln. I let the beam sit for 24 hrs and poked it again, this time I am getting in th 10-12% range.
Is this acceptable for a beam of this size?
I read that EWP does not need to go down much below 10% as it changes the properties of the wood.
This beam will be planed to 10"x10" and then installed as a fireplace mantle with a matte finnish
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

Southside

In my experience with EWP you don't want it below 10 pct MC or it will have issues with planing it.  I have made a fair bit of ship-lap and V-match with the stuff, no beams, but I don't think the knife will care one way or the other how thick the overall product is.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Stephen1

That is what I thought. What is your target for the EWP  as I do a lot of it, beams and planks. 10-12 PCT ?
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

WDH

JR,

That is impressive.  smiley_devil ;D.  
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

NC Daniel

Quote from: YellowHammer on June 06, 2019, 10:17:21 PM
Quote from: YellowHammer on August 08, 2018, 01:10:55 AM
Power consumption is listed as 6kWh average.  With an average published 2018 electrical cost in Alabama of approximately .1259 $/kWh, that comes to 6000/1000*24*.1259= $18.13 per day or $543 per month or $6,516 per year in electricity costs.

It also costs $1,500 for a 2 year service contract.  
I have talked to one user a couple months ago who said my original calculations were pretty close, based on the manufacturers advertised numbers, at least in his case.  
I figure my cost as $25 a day capital costs (loan, interest, insurance) + $20 a day operating costs (electric etc) + labor.
the operating cost may be a buck or two less but I think its best to estimate on the high side, plus $20 is a nice round number.
iDRY Standard

scsmith42

Quote from: NC Daniel on July 18, 2019, 02:51:55 PM
Quote from: YellowHammer on June 06, 2019, 10:17:21 PM
Quote from: YellowHammer on August 08, 2018, 01:10:55 AM
Power consumption is listed as 6kWh average.  With an average published 2018 electrical cost in Alabama of approximately .1259 $/kWh, that comes to 6000/1000*24*.1259= $18.13 per day or $543 per month or $6,516 per year in electricity costs.

It also costs $1,500 for a 2 year service contract.  
I have talked to one user a couple months ago who said my original calculations were pretty close, based on the manufacturers advertised numbers, at least in his case.  
I figure my cost as $25 a day capital costs (loan, interest, insurance) + $20 a day operating costs (electric etc) + labor.
the operating cost may be a buck or two less but I think its best to estimate on the high side, plus $20 is a nice round number.
At $543 per month just for electricity, you're shorting yourself at $20.00 per day for Opex.  If you cycle the kiln twice per month, you're only allocating $57.00 for labor to load and unload two times (30 days x 20/day = $600, less $543 energy costs = $57.00)
Also, what about depreciation, ROI and profit?
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Just Right

WDH,

After hearing your opinion and love for Pecan,  I have to admitttttttttt. . . . .I was a bit on the skeptical side taking in that pecan.  Have since, done another 1/4 load of pecan with the same results.  Very little movement and almost no cupping at all.  Bring me that Sycamore ya'll sawed at the project and it will be awesome.  Here is a pic that a customer of mine did from a Sycamore I quarter sawed and dried and he did the rest.  This is before the epoxy coat.  Table measures 40 wide and 10 foot long.
   
If you are enjoying what you are doing,  is it still work?

WDH

Oh my goodness!  That table is unreal.  Simply beautiful and one of a kind.  JR, too late on the sycamore 4/4.  Put it in the kiln last week, sterilized it Thursday-Friday, and ready to come out of the kiln when I have time to unload.  The 9/4 is still air drying.



 The lumber looks like it has some bow in it, but it does not.  Just a distortion in the pic.  It is all nice and flat.  It air dried three and a half months before going into the kiln.  With the iDry it could have been ready a week after the project. 

What is the average size load that you can fit into the iDry?
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Southside

Quote from: Stephen1 on July 17, 2019, 12:02:12 AM
That is what I thought. What is your target for the EWP  as I do a lot of it, beams and planks. 10-12 PCT ?
I aim for 12, if I end at 10 pct I don't get upset, if I see 9 then my stomach starts to get uneasy and I make sure the knives are dangerous sharp on the moulder. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

NC Daniel

Quote from: scsmith42 on July 19, 2019, 06:02:23 PM
Quote from: NC Daniel on July 18, 2019, 02:51:55 PM
Quote from: YellowHammer on June 06, 2019, 10:17:21 PM
Quote from: YellowHammer on August 08, 2018, 01:10:55 AM
Power consumption is listed as 6kWh average.  With an average published 2018 electrical cost in Alabama of approximately .1259 $/kWh, that comes to 6000/1000*24*.1259= $18.13 per day or $543 per month or $6,516 per year in electricity costs.

It also costs $1,500 for a 2 year service contract.  
I have talked to one user a couple months ago who said my original calculations were pretty close, based on the manufacturers advertised numbers, at least in his case.  
I figure my cost as $25 a day capital costs (loan, interest, insurance) + $20 a day operating costs (electric etc) + labor.
the operating cost may be a buck or two less but I think its best to estimate on the high side, plus $20 is a nice round number.
At $543 per month just for electricity, you're shorting yourself at $20.00 per day for Opex.  If you cycle the kiln twice per month, you're only allocating $57.00 for labor to load and unload two times (30 days x 20/day = $600, less $543 energy costs = $57.00)
Also, what about depreciation, ROI and profit?
The $20 figure does not include labor. Just water and electric, water is well under a dollar a day. 
If you did two 4/4 1200 bdft ten day cycles in a month and charged $1 bdft:
2*1200 - 30*25 - 20*20 - labor = 1250 - labor. Should be room for profit at $1 bdft for 4/4 but it depends on how highly you value your time.
iDRY Standard

NC Daniel

Quote from: WDH on July 20, 2019, 06:23:31 AM
Oh my goodness!  That table is unreal.  Simply beautiful and one of a kind.  JR, too late on the sycamore 4/4.  Put it in the kiln last week, sterilized it Thursday-Friday, and ready to come out of the kiln when I have time to unload.  The 9/4 is still air drying.



 The lumber looks like it has some bow in it, but it does not.  Just a distortion in the pic.  It is all nice and flat.  It air dried three and a half months before going into the kiln.  With the iDry it could have been ready a week after the project.  

What is the average size load that you can fit into the iDry?
The lumber stack for my model can be 13' L x 48" W x 55" T. So if you loaded had 1 1/8" lumber and 3/4 stickers you could get 29 rows of lumber at 52 bdft a row in a perfect world, that comes to 1508 bdft. My average 4/4 load is more like 1200 bdft. The lower bdft is from not every board being 13' long, having some live edge pieces where you can't put boards perfectly side by side, and I prefer to load with a forklift on pallets to cut down on labor (similar to your pic above actually). The pallets cost a couple of rows of lumber unfortunately. My current forklift can not lift a full of green for the kiln so I have to use two pallets unfortunately.
The bdft per load increases with thicker lumber since the lumber to sticker ratio is better.
iDRY Standard

C_Koon

Ok.  I've been saying Im gonna start posting and quit stalking yall so here we go.  
   I got my idry about 6 weeks ago.  Mostly been drying walnut and oak that's been air drying for 4-16 months. So far so good. 
 The last load to go in the kiln was some 4/4 pecan for a customer. I'm charging 15 cents per bf per day. What are your thoughts on the pricing.  Is it fair to both me and the customer?

   Also just want to say thanks for all the knowledge and wisdom on here.  Really good stuff!

Just Right

WDH . . . NC Daniel nailed it.  That is exactly what I am seeing.  If your tired of waiting on the 9/4 it won't take long to throw it in and finish it up for you.  Plus you need to come visit anyway.

C Koon I like the price per foot per day math too.  I am just trying to settle on .10 and .15. . .. . seems to me that telling a customer .15 a foot per day is A LOT less sticker shock than 1.50 a board foot.  Some of the other considerations are type of wood and how long has it been air drying.  So 3 inch slabs that are at 12 percent and basically only need a good heat treatment won't cost a customer a nice lil chunk,  When they only need a couple of days.  There is sure a lot to learn and figure out for sure.
If you are enjoying what you are doing,  is it still work?

C_Koon

I just can't see charging a flat bf price. Ex.  Green 4/4 white oak vs 4/4 air dried walnut that's 20% moisture. Very different drying times. 

busenitzcww

Quote from: NC Daniel on July 20, 2019, 11:01:43 AM

The lumber stack for my model can be 13' L x 48" W x 55" T. So if you loaded had 1 1/8" lumber and 3/4 stickers you could get 29 rows of lumber at 52 bdft a row in a perfect world, that comes to 1508 bdft. My average 4/4 load is more like 1200 bdft. The lower bdft is from not every board being 13' long, having some live edge pieces where you can't put boards perfectly side by side, and I prefer to load with a forklift on pallets to cut down on labor (similar to your pic above actually). The pallets cost a couple of rows of lumber unfortunately. My current forklift can not lift a full of green for the kiln so I have to use two pallets unfortunately.
The bdft per load increases with thicker lumber since the lumber to sticker ratio is better.
So they advertise it at 2000 bf capacity... is that the perfect load of 12/4 ?

Just Right

I don't know about a perfect load.  I rarely do 13 ft board/boards.  I have done several loads of big slabs and they just take up space.
If you are enjoying what you are doing,  is it still work?

Brad_bb

That's exactly what I found by calculation.  If I assumed 12ft long 42" 8/4 slabs and 3/4 stickers, I get 1680 BF.  If I assume 8' plus 4' long 5/4 boards with 3/4 stickers, I get 1440 BF(perfectly packed 48" wide layers).  You have to figure realistic numbers into your payback calculation.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

busenitzcww

Quote from: Brad_bb on July 21, 2019, 10:09:52 AM
That's exactly what I found by calculation.  If I assumed 12ft long 42" 8/4 slabs and 3/4 stickers, I get 840 BF.  If I assume 8' plus 4' long 5/4 boards with 3/4 stickers, I get 1440 BF(perfectly packed 48" wide layers).  You have to figure realistic numbers into your payback calculation.
Shouldn't your bf rate go up with thicker stock? Lumber to sticker ratio should go down not? Or am I thinking backwards?

Brad_bb

Theoretically, but logs you slab are not necessarily consistent.  You Can't get 48" wide slabs consistently.  Say your slabbing a 38" log.  Your top and bottom slabs may only be 24" or less? while your center slabs will be 38.  I was very optimistic/liberal by assuming that all slabs were 42".  I've only had 2 logs that were 48 at the widest point(where the crotch starts to flare).  36" is not unusual.  So you won't be making a solid stack with live edge.  If you have 8/4 boards to fill some of it in, great, but it still won't be tightly packed due to live edges.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

busenitzcww

Quote from: Brad_bb on July 21, 2019, 02:36:50 PM
Theoretically, but logs you slab are not necessarily consistent.  You Can't get 48" wide slabs consistently.  Say your slabbing a 38" log.  Your top and bottom slabs may only be 24" or less? while your center slabs will be 38.  I was very optimistic/liberal by assuming that all slabs were 42".  I've only had 2 logs that were 48 at the widest point(where the crotch starts to flare).  36" is not unusual.  So you won't be making a solid stack with live edge.  If you have 8/4 boards to fill some of it in, great, but it still won't be tightly packed due to live edges.
Oh gotcha!

NC Daniel

@Brad_bb For 12'L x 42"W x 8/4 with 3/4 stickers I get 1680 BF, one of us is off by a factor of 2. 

A perfect 12/4 load comes to 2184 BF, if my math is right.
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