Building a Kiln Chamber

[Paul_H]

Frank,
Yep,they're lighter alright :-/ but I hope it will change.There are no other kilns in the area and we've had a couple of builders show interest already.

The first couple of charges will be VG Fir.Then I want to mess around with some Birch logs we have up at the mill.

Be prepared for lots of questions in the next few months! ;)

Thanks

[Frank_Pender]

Go for it, Paul.  Ask away. :P

[Neil_B]

Paul, did you phone Bailey's Canada? I think they are located in Toronto. $295 shipping anywhere in Canada on that unit.
Also did you ask about the fans? I may go with Baileys if they offer all the same stuff as Nyle's kit just because of that darn exchange rate. Speaking of which, how can they give you .60 on the dollar when our dollar is up?? :(

[Brian_Bailey]

Paul  -   I'm curious in WM's claim to a superior system on controlling heat and humidity?  These kilns are very basic, you have 3 controls which are, an on/off switch, a controller to raise / lower temp.(heat in chamber), and one to control the compressor run time (humidity in chamber). That's it.  Very elemental, easy to operate!  Did they give you any details on what makes their system better? They don't give much info. in their on-line adv.

[Paul_H]

New_sawyer,
I didn't have much success finding Bailey's Canada online.It was Bailey's that had the haywire exchange rate,but their kit does include the 2  16" fans.
No matter how I sliced it,by the time the smoke cleared WM and Bailey's came within around $100 of each other.I ended up putting a deposit down with WM,mostly because of their reputation for service.

Brian,
Gary at Woodmizer in Salmon Arm,BC,explained to me that the controls are simpler and better,but I admit that I can't recall the reason.I will e-mail him this morning and post his response tonight if I receive it.
The  deposit is refundable,so I'll dig a little deeper.

[Mark M]

I contacted Nyle and asked them if there was a difference between the Bailey, Wood-Mizer, and Timberking models. This is their reply:

"We make all of them, they are basically the same product. The only difference is the Wood-Mizer DH4000 unit has a humidistat control rather than a compressor timer control."

I don't know much about this but I can see where this would be an advantage. I think I'll probably go for the Wood-Mizer unit as well.

Mark

[OneWithWood]

Hi all, sorry to come in late onthis thread but I was taking in a Blues Festival over the weekend in Santa Cruz.  They did not have e-mail stations at the festival - go figure :D

I have a WM DK4000.  The difference is the controls.  The WM controls are Honeywell and in my opinion are better constructed.  I have yet to build my chamber but I am planning a 12x17x10 chamber with rails for carts and doors on each end.  I am sizing the carts so I can load two stacks of 8' lumber side by side.  The kit comes with two fans and I will be building folding panels for the top and sides of the loads so I can vary the load when needed.

[Paul_H]

I received an email from Gary at WM in BC today.He said pretty much what Mark and OWW have said,it makes things simpler.Seeing that I don't know much about kilns,simple is a good thing. ;D

The unit should be here by June 11,I'm hoping the chamber will be ready.

[Brian_Bailey]

I just checked the manual for Nyle's L-200.  They show a Humidistat control as an option.  It also says that this control requires periodic calibration, and a hygrometer should also be purchased for use in calibration and monitoring the accuracy of the humidistat.

This sounds alot more complex than a compressor timer.  The whole object is to control the amount of water removed / day.  A compressor timer does this with ease and does not need any calibration.  Why make something more complex that it needs to be.  Just my opinion.    

[Paul_H]

Brian,
The more input in this the better.It's all given me alot to think about,and more studying to do before I fire it up.

Thanks.

My head hurts. ???

[DanG]

Paul, you ain't gonna draw the water outta the wood with blood pressure. Just put the thing together and follow the instructions. Go easy on the heat for the first few days and you won't hurt anything. You'll get the hang of it in no time.

[biziedizie]

  We built a million dollar mushroom barn for a guy that grows mushrooms that are worth about $100.00 to $200.00 for each mushroom. He sells these things world wide and paid me to take a course to learn all about ventilation and static controls and humidity.
  I was taught how to keep air flowing and how to keep the air at the right temperature and how to keep the humidity at the right level. It's kinda backwards compared to drying wood as we had to keep the water in the rooms and not have it flow out the static vents.
  All the controls were high end and in my opinion that's the way to go as you wouldn't want something malfunctioning in the middle of the night.
  Overall I spent 3 years off and on this job and it was very interesting learning all the different ways of how humidity works and things like that.
  Hmmmm now that I think about it maybe with my solar kiln plans and my knowledge maybe I should build one.

    Steve

[Fla._Deadheader]

With all that knowledge, add LOTS of fertilizer and grow them toadstools big, dog 'em down and sell them -pre sliced.?? :

[Brian_Bailey]

 I'm sorry if I have caused anyone any confusion over the controller.  

 Paul stated that WM offers a superior controller than what Nyle (who builds the kiln) offers.  This got my interest up.  

 I've been running a Nyle L-150 for over a decade, 13 yrs.actually, and the compressor timer has worked without fault. These low temp.DH kilns are extremely easy to operate. It is almost impossible to ruin the lumber you're drying in them if you follow the recommended schedules.  

 Once you have dried a few loads of lumber and are familiar with the principles involved you can start increasing the water removal rate to near the maximum allowed before degrade becomes a factor.  This is important if you are trying to maximize the turn-over time of your kiln ( more loads / yr.) which translates more income.  

 A compressor timer allows this to be done without the worry of something going out of calibration and giving you a false reading, which could cause problems when pushing the envelope so to speak.

 These low temp. systems are designed to run between 90 - 120 degrees F., so heat is not much of a factor unless your putting dead green lumber into the kiln and that's for hard to dry species like oak.  The critical issue is the amount of water you remove / day and that is done with the compressor.

 I'm not knocking WM's system, but I wonder why the designer & manufacturer of these kilns does not put this superior controller on their units?  As always, just curious  

[biziedizie]

Harold if there was the money in it today as there was 10 years ago I would be growing mushrooms in every room in my shack. I think that on todays market these mushrooms are getting about $45.00 a pound which is good but not really worth it with all the headaches.
  Last time I was on the island I dropped by the farm and only one room was growing and the others were empty. I guess his pipe dreams of getting rich went down the drain, kinda thought they would.

   Steve

[Paul_H]

DanG,
That is good advice.I'm not really fretting too much about it yet.I'm waiting on the insulation for the floor,and want to have the walls ready to put up.Just like a kid at Christmas 8)

Brian,
You haven't caused any confusion,in fact you've shed some light on a subject that I knew nothing about.Anybody considering building a kiln will benefit from the knowledge and experience that has been posted by you and other members.Please keep it coming!

Steve,
When you get them sliced and diced,we can dry them up here ;)  

[Neil_B]

I was beginning to consider the humidistat myself until you mentioned the advantages Brian. I'm considering going with the 300 for mine and think I will stick with the timer controls. Sounds like less of a headache. If I remember correctly, Nyle priced the 300 kit at around 10000 Can and I think Bailey's and WM's are the smaller kits but will look into further to compare more prices.
Glad you brought this up Paul, very informative as always on this forum.

[Brian_Bailey]

New_ Sawyer  -  

I don't know much about the L-300 as it is a Hi - Temp. system. I do know from reading what others have said about their kiln operations that with Hi - Temp. you need to stay alert and follow the established schedules or you'll have alot of sticker material in short order.  

I see on Nyle's site that a L-300  is $11,695 US.  I was wondering if 2 L-200's @ $4,295 US or less from someone else would be just as good.  You'd get almost the same drying capacity as the 300 with less hassles unless you need the faster drying rate of a Hi- temp. system. Just a thought.

Paul -

 Don't let my ramblings deter you from getting the WM.  It will meet all your expectations, I'm sure.  I just thought that maybe WM had come up with a better mouse trap in the controller design.  IMO they haven't, enough said.  Get that chamber built, the 11th will be here before you know it.     

[Neil_B]

That may be a good thought with the 2 200's. I also got my specs mixed up a bit. The 300 was almost 15000 Can but I can save a bit of money as I don't need the heater, just a coil in the unit. Although I don't think it made it a whole lot cheaper.
With the high temp system, doesn't it just mean that they can operate at a higher temp. I can still run at 120 deg with the 300 but I can go up to 160 for case hardening and bug kill. Correct?? I'm assuming that the 50 and 200 can't handle the extra heat like the larger units can over time.
Another reason to choose the 300 though, would then be the fact that when pallet companies are forced to heat treat their hardwood as well as the softwood ( supposed to be in effect 2004), I would be able to crank the heat up to 150 or 160 for the time it takes to treat. ( I do a bit of cut to length stock for a company right now and have to consider this if I continue on with it)

[Paul_H]

I have another question for you all.What is a reasonable sealant for the kiln? I can't find Lion Al-Kote that Nyle recomends,but I found another Aluminum type coating that does around 50 sq ft per gallon at around $90(I was told offhand,still waiting for confirmation) cdn per gallon
I need to cover 900 sq ft.

Another option is aluminum sheeting at $ 1.30 sq ft cdn.

Insulation,
Rigid foam or fibreglass pink?

New Sawyer,
The little unit I'm getting will take the temp up to 160 F to set pitch.Is that what you are after?

[Brian_Bailey]

Paul -

 I went cheap and used Alum. roof coating for mobile homes to seal the chamber.  Works for me.

 Insulation, don't use fiberglass!!!  Go with rigid (not the white stuff) and use plenty of it.  You will be glad you did if you're going to run the kiln in the winter.

New_Sawyer -  

The compressor in my L-150 doesn't like temps much higher than 120 F.  I shut it off when I take the temp. to 140 F.  The L-200 is more tolerant of higher temps. but I would still play it safe and turn off the compressor when going to a higher temp. esp. 160 degrees.  This leads to another ?, are the circulation fan motors rated to run in temps. exceeding 150 degrees??

If you look at the Hi - Temp DH kilns you'll notice that only the condensation coils are actually in the chamber.  The compressor and controller are outside of the chamber. That is how they can operate at such a high temp.

Concerning raising the temp. to kill little beasties,  I would think that an aux. heater in a L- 200 would be a heck of a lot cheaper than a $15000 L-300 being run as a L-200.  Just my opinion again though  :D .

[Paul_H]

Brian,
Should I not use fibreglass because of possible moisture through the walls? The 6'' pink fibreglass has a R-20 value,so I had thought about using it because if the chamber is tight nothing would pass through.

I priced rigid at $2300 for double sheets of 2" in the walls.Fibreglass was $800 and change.

The Alum. roof coating that you used,is it quite "watery" or is it thick like porrige? The thin stuff is definitely cheaper.

[biziedizie]

Paul whoever gave you that price on rigid is making some good coin! Rigid should cost about $200.00 more then the pink stuff.
  The rule of thumb is that the pink stuff is better above ground and the blue stuff (rigid) is better below ground like on concrete walls.
  If you seal the poly properly you will have no problems with the pink stuff. For every doorway and window and receptacle make sure you glue the poly down so there's no moisture problems.
  The R value of the pink stuff is better then the blue stuff and the air circulation is far by best. When we were building barns that would have temperatures that would range from outside temps to full blown temps we would use the pink stuff as it would dissipate the moister faster.
  As far as the interior sealing what are you sheeting it with? Are you going with 1/2" ply or osb or what? Is it going to be interior or exterior grade ply?
  I think a few posts back there was a mention of installing poly under the joists, k that's a great idea but make sure it's the perforated stuff of you will have major problems!
  Hope this helps!

      Steve
  

[Paul_H]

Steve,
I was also quoted $3.06 a sq ft for full 4" rigid.Maybe they saw me coming :D Where would be a good place in town to price some out? I have about 900 sq ft in total that will need R 20 or better.
I'm not sure about the plywood yet.Will construction grade handle the heat?(160 F).The specs call for marine grade.The Home Hardware store is pricing out different options and will make a few calls to find out about a proper sealer.There is an outfit in Delta that makes a Aluminum kiln coating and I've got two different stores calling the same place for me tomorrow(small world :D )

I layed poly on the ground under the joists,but the joists are 10" off of the ground and will have good air flow.The specs call for poly between the insulation and the plywood on the inside of the chamber.

Thanks ,it all helps.

[Frank_Pender]

I sure missed the cruise ship or something.  :-/ If I had spent $15,000 on a kiln I would have had it used for my creamtorium, like Sam Magee's friend did for him. :-[   The wife would have stuffed me in the thing and torched it herself.  :'(  I simply took a 24' refer trailer and reinsolated the thing with 4" pink and resheeted with paper coated fiber boards (4' x 8')  The sheeting is the same cheeeep material that is often used of manufactured homes in this part of the country.   I used it because I could get if for $6 a sheet.  ;D  Now, I know Ihave some heat loss with this unit, but my heat is cheap, wood in a Taylor hotwater stove and a heat exchanger.  Total cost for everything was no more than $3,800 and I can still use the stove for other heat purposes, if so desired. 8)  The lumber is turning out great to boot.  I only wish that I could get a good deal on some more trailers. :-/