Wind Farms?

[mr T]

Theres a proposed 48 unit wind tower project 2miles from my home  It will take up 10 miles of mt top there 400 ft high with 240 ft blades I was in faver of it until i learned  there getting 1/3 of cost pd by gov subsidy Any body else having this happen in their area?

[ely]

most likely its happening everywhere. i know they have filled up western oklahoma with the wind turbines. they have articles in the coop papers that tell how wonderful and how "green " the power is. some people in the state even pay a little extra for the green power. i guess it helps them sleep better at night knowing they have done their part in reducing the carbon footprint. what they do not understand is once the power is dumped into the grid its all the same power, be it nuecs, hydro, gas or coal.

[Tom Sawyer]

Just got a letter in the mail today inviting me to a public meeting with a company that is planning to put a bunch around here.  We already have a bunch along the shore of Lake Huron within less than an hour's drive in either direction.  I don't know who is paying for them though.

Tom

[red oaks lumber]

the more power is made from wind the less needs to come from other means.  the cost for wind power should be fairly consistant from year to year. when the gov't passes cap and trade everyone will be wishing they got their power from wind or hydro, those sources won't be hit with a carbon credit tax.

[florida]

All the wind farms plus  all the solar arrays in the USA added together don't produce the power of one single 1970's coal fired electrical plant. See if you can find a single windmill in the US that was built without subsidies and you won't be able to. Without the Federal subsidies there would be no wind farms because the subsidies are the only way they make any money. Even during the short periods every day when they do produce power they still have to be backed up by traditional power plants since wind is intermittent. You're very right to be concerned.

[Jasperfield]

I still like my electricity to come from good ol' COAL. Electricity from high sulphur diesel is pretty good, too.

[forest.c]

they are going to put them up here as well they are an eye sore but at least the tax payers in town will beneft from the money thay have to pay the town also will pay 1000 per year on property tax to land owners in town i just dont know were the money is going to come from.

[red oaks lumber]

when it comes right down to it *DanG near everything has a subsidies. farming, biodiesel,coal, wind, buisness, senior citezens, ect. so it seems we are stuck in the 70's.
so what is wrong with trying to have alternative sources for electricity?

[stonebroke]

A wind energy company wanted to put some on my farm until my NIMBY neighbors decided they did not want to look at them.

Stonebroke

[Bill]

A buddy up along the NY state border has them going in all along the ridge lines ( mtn tops ).

The local farmers/landowners all like the extra money even if the view isn't so good.

They sure did spend a bunch of money to cut in the roads thru the woods along these mtn tops so they could build them .

[Norm]

We have 200 and more on the way by us. A nice clear evening watching the stars now includes 200 red blinking lights.

[mr T]

Hi Norm How about noise level? This is a  big concern here

[Cedarman]

The view of windmills is kind of like raising pigs.  To the producer the aroma smells like money, to the neighbor it smells like ###t.

[Norm]

Florida power and light is the producer.....

Mr T we are not close enough to hear anything, not sure about the neighbors very near them.

[Larry]

I wonder if the real purpose of windmills is to create jobs.  Federal Government built a lot of hydroelectric dams years ago, I think a lot of similarities can be seen.

[Bibbyman]

I came up with what I think is the best use of wind power.

Place them on top of an oil well and have them pump oil.

[Tom]

Jobs idea might be right, but the jobs are being created Off-Shore. 

There was a news article, following the signing of the Jobs Bill, that described all of he jobs that were being created off-shore for what had been intended to be included in the jobs bill before the lines referencing 'buy American' were scratched out.   Now the only jobs are the labor jobs of erecting the "green" products.  These products include things like solar panels and windmills.  The manufacture is being done where there is cheap labor and, I'm sure, the engineering and maintenance will be overseen by those manufacturing countries.

Unfortunately, the report is only documented as a video.

[Larry]

Jobs idea might be right, but the jobs are being created Off-Shore. 

That was correct when they first started putting them up but times are changing.

Arkansas has three maybe four windmill factories and I think there is another one in N Dakota.  They do employ a lot of folks.  I know at least one is foreign owned...maybe they all are.  The state gave big time tax incentives to lure em here.  Not for sure if it was worth it or not...but our state is in a good financial position.

[stonebroke]

GE 's renewable energy world headquarters is in Schenectady NY. They don't build or assemble them but they do all the designing, engineering and planning.

Stonebroke

[woodsteach]

They have started putting up 40 on the Ks /neb line and we get the last 2 on the line.  The $ is welcome but the bs isn't. 

Our power co still has to produce the same power every day whether the windturbines move or not!  So Green my butt :-[ :-[  just stop and think of all of the fuel used to level, pour, ship, install etc each of those things.  and Footprint.... those things stretch for MILES not just a square mile like for a plant.  We would not have gotten the 2 but since we were going to have to look at the other 38 we might as well take the good ($)

woodsteach

[stonebroke]

A wind turbine will generate back the energy used in manufacturing, placement  and everything else in about five months.

Stonebroke

[Tom]

I think it is real easy to look at off-shore manufacturing in a short-sighted way.  Not meaning that to be personal, just meaning that there is a depth to manufacture that most of us ignore.

In the case of windmills.  We see the put on our land and we get money for it.   We see that as getting an American Dollar.  We see trucks hauling the equipment, truckers driving the trucks, riggers setting up the equipments, maintenance men taking care of the mill, yard people mowing the grass or dressing the road and say, "look at all the jobs it created."

What we don't look at is the economy of doing all of that being handled through a foreign country.  It's those moguls who benefit from the American Tax incentives, jobs of the economists who control the company, the off-shore companies who make the generators and other equipment that are the heart of the system and the ultimate loss of all, the loss of the money.

You see, those dollars that another country "earns" in the United States, whether it be an illegal alien picking tomatoes, or a windmill company that is taking the profits from their farm, are taken directly out of circulation in the USA.  Those profits go to pay employees in the other countries.  They are spent on the building of more plants in other countries.  They are going toward creating more jobs in those other countries and, the money doesn't get back into circulation here, so it is lost.  Not only arel the profits lost, but the tax money ( it came from your pocket, remember) that is lost to the creation of the industry, finds its way to the moguls of the other country, not to the job creation or industry building in the USA. 

You have to look over the fence to see it, but the money is on a one way trip out of the country.  Now picture that as something tangible.  It's easy to think of Government money as free money.  But when you think of it as Gold, and you see the trail of our gold crossing the boarder, it begins to have a different meaning.  Sure, there are arguments that some of it comes back, but I'm not much of a proponent of them.

This loss of money is true with all of the industry we lose.  Money that could have stayed at home, been passed in a tight little circle amongst the citizens of a town and given them the means to increase their buying power.  But when the dollars leave the borders, whether for services or product, they are lost.

This is almost over-simplistic but let's say that Tomville, a little town of 10,000 people has a gross liquid dollar value of a million dollars.  A hamburger joint in the big city sets up shop and hires folks to work there.  The bread, meat, potatoes and drinks are bought elsewhere and shipped in.  They are paid for by the sale of the hamburgers.  Each resident eats two hamburgers a day and spends a dollar.  Twenty-five cents of that dollar goes to the employees.  That pays for the creation of the jobs.

The rest goes to the big city where it pays for the next shipment of bread, meat, potatoes and drinks.  The cattle farmers in Tomville might benefit if they sell their cattle to the hamburger company, but the rest goes into the coffers of the moguls in the paper shuffling jobs.   That money goes to pay for their cars, their houses, their medical, their vacations (maybe one would take a vacation in Tomville), their furniture, their education, etc.  Tomville never sees that money again.  For kicks let's say it is 50 cents a person per day.

So, unless Tomville residents can get that money back someway.....   How long will it take for all of the money to drain from the "hole in the bucket" in Tomville?

Yeah, it's simplistic and not totally accurate, but, do you get my drift?

That's what makes the die-hards buy from the mom and pop local stores instead of the Wal-marts and K-marts.  That's also what makes one leery of the government spending tax dollars to create "holes in the bucket". 

[mr T]

Right on Tom I agree All of these will be built on paper co land so no money to private landowners  The life of these units are only 25 yrs  Short term gains long term impact.

[Brad_S.]

Mr. T,
What wind company is developing the project you are refering too?

[mr T]

Its called Independence Wind LLC Its supposed to be a Maine co. but who knows?Central me power sold out to some spanish co Fla lite &power owns allthe hyro units now.I think everything here is owned by outside interests.

[routestep]

Evergreen company put in about 30 windmills just up the mountain from me maybe 1/2 or 3/4 miles away. I can heard them a little. The faint noise is repetitive, not a hum. From ground to tip they stand 400ft in the air. They are in the next county, just across the line, so my county doesn't get any money from them. We get the view.

[SwampDonkey]

Don't seem to bother the moose none. :D

Three more just out of frame.



I'll have to start tying cow bells on my private herd. :D :D :D

[mr T]

Nice pics I dont think anything bothers moose How do people there like wind mills ? I havent figured out how to post pics but if you google in friends of the highland mountains youll see the view from my frt porch Picture it with wind mills

[SwampDonkey]

People come to take pictures, ask the locals and they don't pay any attention to them. I can't here them at the house, I can when I walk up the road within a couple miles if there is a stiff breeze. There isn't a day that those mills aren't running. When there is no wind down in the low country it blows up there. Once in awhile one or two will stop. There are 28 up there and like others said they are about 400 feet high when a blade is vertical, actually 389 feet. The towers are 250 feet and the blades 139 feet long. I have some pictures of them erecting them in a Wind Mill thread here on the forum.

[Patty]

I hate the windmills near us. They are such a blight on what used to be rolling hills of farmland. We have about 200 of them 10 miles west of us, with another 200 or so in the works. You see them on the horizon. At night, instead of seeing a beautiful sky of stars, you see 200+ blinking red lights obliterating any view of nighttime skies. They are ugly.

One small nuke (or coal for that matter) plant would be far more welcome than 400 windmills stretching on for miles in my opinion.

[Tom]

I wish they would put stuff like that on top of Urban buildings.  The planning is all done by city folks, sitting behind big shiny desks and they look on Urban property as the valuable stuff and what's outside as wasteland.

Our County got rid of an RC model airplane field that was located next to one of the civilian airports because the land around about was to be developed and the people didn't like the noise.  They moved it to an old pasture at the Prison Farm about a mile and a half down the road.  Folks are right, RC fields are noisy.  Our quiet, peaceful swamp, along the primitive creek, in the wilds of Florida has not been the same since.  There were promises of muffled engines and only midday use, but that was just politicians talking.  After spending a quarter million dollars, or more, on the site, it was turned over to the RC club.  The club means well, but their trying to control a public field is like trying to corral a herd of lizards with a switch.  The News article, touting the City's benevolence quoted the powers-that-be as saying that the field was now located where no one lived, so there would not be anyone to bother.   Needless to say, that stuck in our craw out here, where we moved to get away from the city's noice pollution.

Now we have a National Cemetery in that same pasture.  The RC Planes are supposed to go away sometime and the folks in the Cemetery are a lot quieter.  The problem now is that they are closing our access road for funerals. I respect the right to die and be buried and will stop and show respect when the  bereaved pass, but I sure wish the City had thought of giving us another way out of here.

It sure makes one despise city folks.

[SwampDonkey]

The windmills that are on Mars Hill have blinking lights to, but there have been blinking lights up there for 60 years from towers erected all along it's ridge. Used to it I guess. But, I can still enjoy the stars, as from my vantage point they are to the north and most of my star gazing is over head, to the south, to the east a setting moon to the west or an occasional glimpse of Venus just after sunset or before sunrise.  Can even view the international space station, but surprisingly I have never actually gone out to see it during the viewing times, it's up there someplace different each time they say. ;)

The worst thing I hate is town folk coming up the end of our road and dumping off appliances in the woods. The scorge of the country when the province closed all the municipal dumps for regional land fills. Every ones woods roads is a potential target for spring trash cleanout in towns. And fall hunting excursions, take the old fridge along to dump off. >:( It's senseless ignoramic behaviour because they take them for nothing at scrap yards. Someone is deathly afraid they might have to pay a small toll to rid of their junk.

[stonebroke]

I hate the windmills near us. They are such a blight on what used to be rolling hills of farmland. We have about 200 of them 10 miles west of us, with another 200 or so in the works. You see them on the horizon. At night, instead of seeing a beautiful sky of stars, you see 200+ blinking red lights obliterating any view of nighttime skies. They are ugly.

One small nuke (or coal for that matter) plant would be far more welcome than 400 windmills stretching on for miles in my opinion.

Blame the FAA for that. Honestly, if a airplane is within four hundred feet of the ground it is in trouble already and blinking lights probably won't save it.

Stonebroke

[forest.c]

they dump scrap junk here to realy pi%&& me off we have a camp on st croix lake and sombody dumped a stove just up the road !

[John Mc]

One small nuke (or coal for that matter) plant would be far more welcome than 400 windmills stretching on for miles in my opinion.

Of course, when you are downwind of all those coal plants, and the acid rain is leaching the calcium from your soils, destroying the productivity of our forests and lakes, you may tend to have a different view. Likewise, when the only Nuke plant in our state has a partial collapse of their cooling tower (supposedly due to rotting timbers in the support structure) months after the NRC gave it a clean bill of health as they were inspecting it for a requested uprate of 20% from the designed power output,  and you find that same Nuke plant is leaking tritium from their underground pipes (pipes which they denied having not too long ago when they were appearing before the state legislature asking to have the operating license extended beyond it's planned expiration in 2012)... you again tend to look at things differently.

I'm not saying wind power is the answer to all our problems... every power source seems to have it's drawbacks. Just that it has its place.

John Mc

[stonebroke]

Or maybe she would like to live next to a strip mine.

Stonebroke

[tractormanNwv]

I'm still a little Stunned by it all, if the Power Company"s can produce electric by coal or etc for 6 cents per kw  and then buy the power from the windmill at 9 cents per kw...Who is really saving? We all Know that water runs downhill and We"re at the Bottom. And if it"s about the GREEN....Well please Help Me Understand why I Work with NOT FOR, but with CSX Railroad and I See v-12 and V-16 Engines just Pouring the Black Smoke, and When I Take a Truck into the Mines I See raw Diesel just Pouring from every Piece of Machinery on the Mtn I Wonder why thier so hard on the Truckers?

[gunman63]

the way i see it, its  just like if u think gas  prices are high, and complain about it, dont use it, dont use electric, or gas, show them  whos boss.  Me i dont mind paying my $150 a month for  power i think i get a lot of  use for  my $5 a day, same with fuel, I think i can get a lot of use of $3-5 a gal, fuel, better than not using it. some people are just goin to complain no matter  what

[Patty]

Of course, when you are downwind of all those coal plants, and the acid rain is leaching the calcium from your soils, destroying the productivity of our forests and lakes, you may tend to have a different view.

I live next to a pig factory, so coal seems pretty unobtrusive in comparison

[ely]

nothing wrong with wind as a suppliment to the already existing electric grid. i just get a little preturbed when the good folk seem to think they can use wind power or solar power the same as they do for there house. they expect lights to come on when the switch is flipped.

[John Mc]

nothing wrong with wind as a suppliment to the already existing electric grid. i just get a little preturbed when the good folk seem to think they can use wind power or solar power the same as they do for there house. they expect lights to come on when the switch is flipped.

Well, my neighbors, who are of grid solar, expect just that... and they get it. They do have a propane generator as backup, but it rarely runs. They heat with wood (propane backup there too... but it only runs when they are away on vacation).

But their lifestyle isn't for everyone.

[pappy]

The local farmers/landowners all like the extra money even if the view isn't so good.

They sure did spend a bunch of money to cut in the roads thru the woods along these mtn tops so they could build them .

Maybe ya should read what this farmer went through...

Wisconsin Farmer Has Regrets ;
http://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/wisconsin-farmer-has-regrets

Our little N. Maine town of Wallagrass is voting on an ordnance this coming Thursday evening,, I hit a couple of the informational meetings,, Big wind ain't gonna like it to much...

We've guts to put money into nuclear  :P  it's what future generations will be using... Our world wide power demands will be much greater than they are now and wind might help some but it's not the answer...  :-\  So why waste all this time and money on "feel good greenie" intermittent power ,, Gooberment boondoggles is gonna bankrupt this great country ,,, Just  MHO


Northern Quebec with it's huge resource of Hydro power is gonna make some big bucks in the not to distant future..  It's needed for the east coast megalopolis and it's on it's way folks.

[stonebroke]

Some thing that people forget or maybe never knew, Nuclear is a non renewable resource.

Stonebroke

[SwampDonkey]

We've already spent $1.2B on Lepreau refurbishment, another $400 M likely. And our premier is selling out NB Power for $3.9B of all assets except transmission. The numbers don't jive.  :

[pappy]

Some thing that people forget or maybe never knew, Nuclear is a non renewable resource.

Stonebroke

Think future,, we haven't learned all there is to know yet.  But time is of the essence.

SD,
With Gooberment the numbers never jive.. Only with big money power behind closed doors does it makes sense.. Big elec money at this very moment is seeing the huge demand / potential for juice along the eastern sea board.. First it's the little purchase of NB Power for $3.9B then they need to bring it through Maine and the state is already looking to lease the right of way down the I 95 to elec and gas right straight into the New England Power grid... Now can you say big bucks... Just glad the Clinton administration isn't in office, there used to be people dieing of weird things in those days.  ;) 

[bill m]

Maybe ya should read what this farmer went through...

Wisconsin Farmer Has Regrets ;
http://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/wisconsin-farmer-has-regrets

I feel bad for the farmer but what happened with his lawyer?  Isn't that why we hire them to look out for us and our interests.

[isawlogs]

Here in Québec , we have I am guessing it at 90 % of our electricity is from water turbines ,  one or two nuc plants but I really need to look into that as they may be closed , and are now funding those windmills ... It is a shame cause we still have many places that could have turbines put in and produce a whole wack of power for the east coast . Oh ya , we are buying SD power plants .  ;)

[SwampDonkey]

No worries, I'll just build a camp on the back of the woodlot, no road, and run a line up to the top of Mars Hill into one of those windmills. I'll have to camo the roof so the assessor does not up my taxes. Moose meat, beaver, bunch berry, cattails, boiled inner cedar bark and fiddle heads should sustain me. :D





Maybe somewhere handy to where they erected this one. ;)

[pappy]

bill m,
Guess the lawyer and farmer were to trusting with what big wind was promising.  :


It's a new possible source of energy and yup I got land but what they tell ya and what takes place when you give them the power over your rights is two different things in the big world. :(

Don't forget when big money talks,,,,,  well I think we all get the idea... How far can ya throw 'em ??

I think some people were lucky that their NIMBY neighbors were leery about the promises of big money.. Kinda like an insurance company that takes your premiums then when you get sick they dump ya... Yup big money promises..  :

How's it go " wolf in sheep's clothing" ... Some folks up this way are saying big wind is offering $10,000 / crucifix a year for twenty years,, ya right!

Just be very careful folks before sighing on to this... When the subsidies run out it'll just be another feel good / catch faze and on to some other cheap source of feel good energy..


Believe me I'd really like to see them get rid of the coal powered elec plants!! Because with the state of Maine and some of the other northeastern New England states being the tail pipe of the nation our lakes, ponds and rivers have unacceptable levels of mercury that the ME Fish and Wildlife depts tell pregnant women don't eat any fresh water fish and the rest of us no more than two meals a month... When I was a kid we ate trout at least 3 times a week in the summer...

[isawlogs]

Pappy , that tail end you speak of , it goes on beyond Maine. We have to deal with the short comings of it also , thinking of how our lakes and rivers take a beatting from such things we have no control on, sure makes one wish others would take time to see what is really at stake with those coal fired mills.  :-\   
I am cetain there would be a way of filtering them to a point that they would be less harmfull and I am also cetrain it would be cheaper then litering the skies with wind mills . 

[mr T]

Thanx for all the feedback on this Were not happy with this & are going to the state lurc meeting to protest Wel see what happens Heres a link to the view from my porch (without wind mills )

http://highlandmts.org/

[Dana]

Pappy in the link you provided, I couldn't see where the "farmer" ever put his name to the article? It makes me wonder if it's a fictious article put out by the anti-wind people.

[SwampDonkey]

I've never heard anyone complaining of these windmills on Mars Hill. I listen to radio and watch the local US TV station and it's not ever brought up. I have no say what goes on over there anyway. Always going to be opposition to every single thing brought forward, just human nature. Not in my back yard syndrome. ;)

[pappy]

Dana,,

From the link right at the top ..

He was interviewed by Don Bangart who wrote the following on behalf of the farmer, whose contract with the wind company prevents him from speaking openly about any problems.

I've never heard anyone complaining of these windmills on Mars Hill.

SD,
I guess you never cross the border and have a coffee with the locals..
http://www.saveourscenicarea.org/documents/MarsHill2FreedomLetter2008May.pdf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpFLsNiXE0g&feature=related


From folks that live on an island 12 miles off the coast of Maine.. One must be careful of what they wish for :-\
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quSkEbYnygA&feature=related

[Brad_S.]

Discussions on wind turbines are like discussions of logging. You can find videos on the web on how terrible logging is. How it is a travesty against nature and the environment. How it is an eyesore. How it affects the wildlife and quality of human life in areas effected. Those who populate this web site know better than anyone how bogus such claims are.

So it is with these anti-wind videos. I'm not saying there aren't any issues with wind farms, but the anti-wind examples being posted here seem to be bordering on propaganda. There are groups that will enter a small town that is being prospected for their wind resource with pre-packaged anti-wind media kits. They stir up resentment even though they don't live anywhere near the area in question. You can hear the same "testimonials" verbatim from town to town.

Earlier in this thread there was a complaint that the farms are being set up on timber company owned property and locals aren't getting a piece of the pie. Yet we are presented with a farmers complaint that there is inequity of payments to individual lessors. By keeping the sites on those parcels owned by large companies, the wind companies can circumvent such accusations and also avoid having to negotiate with several dozen individuals. Also, these large parcels are usually more remote and thus impact fewer humans. Danged if they do, Danged if they don't.

The 'anonymous' farmer complaining about how he is being trampled over? He has a contract. If the wind company is exceeding the terms of the contract, why doesn't he take them to court? Sounds like a fish tale to me.

The aesthetic part is all relative. i thought the sight of turbines spinning gracefully was inspiring long before my current employment. I can understand how others may not agree though. I do find it amusing though that one group fighting a potential site claims it will destroy their town, their quality of life and will discourage tourism while what few outsiders who do venture into town are gagging on the smell from the nearby pulp mill. ( No offense to you pulp-ers, but Dang that smell is nasty!)

I empathize, Mr. T, but base your opinion on facts you observe, not on what you are being fed. Visit a site. Listen for yourself. See how many citizens are really within range of a turbine to be affected by strobing. Make your own observations of wildlife. (One of my team mates has photos of a bear exploring the base of a turbine.)

Whether detractors care to admit it or not, there is a tremendous amount of money being pumped into many Maine towns that have nothing else going for them these days and many of the local business are extremely grateful for it.



Stetson Wind Project, Danforth, ME

[SwampDonkey]

That never makes the news pappy. So this old country boy wouldn't know. Mars Hill was dying before windmills. They closed up about every shop downtown accept one grocery store since i was a kid. That was a boom town 30 years ago. The Canadian dollar took a dive in the late 80's and they lost a lot of cross border shopping. It was bad enough that the exchange at the bank was bad, but what did the merchants do, they took an extra 10 % on the exchange rate at the cash til if you offered Canadian currency. We could change money to US dollars for exchange plus 2% at the banks. They were sending a message they didn't want Canadian shoppers, so fine. When Loring was closed those little towns also suffered a big blow. The Aroostook Centre Mall has also been struggling in PI as did their downtown, Caribou far worst for downward spiral.

[isawlogs]

 SD , I just heard on the news here that our Goobermint has backed out of the deal , so you are temporarely keeping your elactrickaty , there was just too much back benching to deal with.

[SwampDonkey]

Marcel, yes that was today's big news. Another reprieve until we vote the bums out. :D

[isawlogs]

Hope your cost don't go too high now , there was a freeze on cost in the terms of the offer .. now itsd wide open ... 

[SwampDonkey]

Not wide open, just the inflationary increment that was going to be after the 5 year cap. Usually around 3%. There could be a lot more savings if the government had tightened it's belt concerning where it throws it's money. The government has made a lot of bad decisions and this is not the first that the constituents have converged on the legislature. The refurbishment of that albatross in Lepreau was one big mistake. The AEC was way out of touch with cost estimates, like not by a couple months, almost 2 years.  Didn't help that Irving dropped a turbine into the drink and it had to go back to Europe for refurbishment. : Just like building a small bridge across a stream around here, they sure like to drag out the job time.

[TexasSawmiller]

Discussions on wind turbines are like discussions of logging. You can find videos on the web on how terrible logging is. How it is a travesty against nature and the environment. How it is an eyesore. How it affects the wildlife and quality of human life in areas effected. Those who populate this web site know better than anyone how bogus such claims are.

So it is with these anti-wind videos. I'm not saying there aren't any issues with wind farms, but the anti-wind examples being posted here seem to be bordering on propaganda. There are groups that will enter a small town that is being prospected for their wind resource with pre-packaged anti-wind media kits. They stir up resentment even though they don't live anywhere near the area in question. You can hear the same "testimonials" verbatim from town to town.

Earlier in this thread there was a complaint that the farms are being set up on timber company owned property and locals aren't getting a piece of the pie. Yet we are presented with a farmers complaint that there is inequity of payments to individual lessors. By keeping the sites on those parcels owned by large companies, the wind companies can circumvent such accusations and also avoid having to negotiate with several dozen individuals. Also, these large parcels are usually more remote and thus impact fewer humans. Danged if they do, Danged if they don't.

The 'anonymous' farmer complaining about how he is being trampled over? He has a contract. If the wind company is exceeding the terms of the contract, why doesn't he take them to court? Sounds like a fish tale to me.

The aesthetic part is all relative. i thought the sight of turbines spinning gracefully was inspiring long before my current employment. I can understand how others may not agree though. I do find it amusing though that one group fighting a potential site claims it will destroy their town, their quality of life and will discourage tourism while what few outsiders who do venture into town are gagging on the smell from the nearby pulp mill. ( No offense to you pulp-ers, but Dang that smell is nasty!)

I empathize, Mr. T, but base your opinion on facts you observe, not on what you are being fed. Visit a site. Listen for yourself. See how many citizens are really within range of a turbine to be affected by strobing. Make your own observations of wildlife. (One of my team mates has photos of a bear exploring the base of a turbine.)

Whether detractors care to admit it or not, there is a tremendous amount of money being pumped into many Maine towns that have nothing else going for them these days and many of the local business are extremely grateful for it.



Stetson Wind Project, Danforth, ME

Hi folks,

I'm a newbie here and this is my first post.

I'm going to mirror what Brad says above.  I worked wind turbines for about 2 years, even the one he has pictured in Danforth ME.  I personally could never here a wind turbine operate from 1100 feet away.  Its actually pretty quiet even directly underneath the blades, where you hear only a gentle "Woosh".

As far as power production:  Currently, there is a second grid being built in Texas due to over-saturation.  Theres also a transmission line being built up the middle of the US.  When this is finished, wind power will be able to provide 100% of the nations power.

I also saw where someone quotes the turbines as being 400 feet tall and having blades 240 feet long.  land based wind turbines in the states are roughly 282 feet tall to the center of the hub, and the blades run 134 feet.  There ARE some offshore sites that have some 300 footers, but they keep them offshore due to FAA regulations

Just had to chime in.

Off that subject, I came here as a recommendation from Ely. I'm looking to buy a plot of land in SE OK so I can build a small house someday.  Looking forward to learning from you knowledgeable folks

[Bill]

Welcome aboard  TexasSawmiller

8)   

[SwampDonkey]

Mars Hill Wind Farm

Yeah, the 240 foot blade thing was the first I ever heard of it. They are 138 feet or there abouts according to the Mars Hill Wind Farm.

[Mooseherder]

This is a blade from the Mars Hill site.

[TimRB]

Theres also a transmission line being built up the middle of the US.  When this is finished, wind power will be able to provide 100% of the nations power.

Now hold on a second.  According to this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_the_United_States

if we continue building windmills at the current rate, they will be able to supply 20 percent of the US electrical demand in twenty years.  If that's true (and I think it's at least in the ballpark) probably wind power will *never* be able to supply all our needs.

Tim

[SwampDonkey]

I think even T. Boone Pickens had the wind taken from his sails on that notion not long ago and he was only proposing 22% of energy from wind turbines. ;)

http://www.energyboom.com/wind/t-boone-pickens-proving-be-hot-air-about-wind-energy

[stonebroke]

Mars Hill Wind Farm

Yeah, the 240 foot blade thing was the first I ever heard of it. They are 138 feet or there abouts according to the Mars Hill Wind Farm.

I think 155 ft is about the limit for over the road travel.

Stonebroke

[Cedarman]

Even if it is only 20%, that is still a bunch of electrons jumping back and forth.  That much less fossil fuel.  Get more geothermal, nuclear, biomass and leave the coal in the ground.

[pappy]

When this is finished, wind power will be able to provide 100% of the nations power.

Doubt It   :

Texas talk    ;)  :D  ;D

Welcome TexasSawmiller

[Magicman]

Ya'll gonna use all tha wind up and thar ain't gonna be any left by tha time it get's ta me,  At least that's what Bubba said....... ;D


TexasSawmiller.....Welcome to The Forestry Forum.  And we can learn from your knowledge....... 8)

[Brad_S.]

One of my favorite anti-wind statements was the assertation that the resistance that hundreds of thousands of turbines would create on the earth's winds would cause the rotation of the earth to slow down and doom our planet.  :D :D :D

That from the same people who feel the space shuttle is effecting the weather. :

[Stan snider]

Welcome Texas Sawmiller           I have been up to the base of some mills out near Buffalo, OK and was really surprised at how quiet they were, with probably a 20 mph wind blowing. If there is enough wind to make a windmill viable there is already noise so that whole line of arguement might be a smokescreen.    I'm sure they sound worse just ascross the fence on the neighbors ground.                                        Now if we want to talk wind, why not put some on the hills near the Potomac. ??? That would be the height of efficiency.  Stan

[TexasSawmiller]

When this is finished, wind power will be able to provide 100% of the nations power.

Doubt It   :

Texas talk    ;)  :D  ;D

Welcome TexasSawmiller

Thanks for the welcome everyone

Just FYI, The reason they have to build another grid in Texas was because of the wind farms over-saturating the grid here

Wind parks here operate at about an 80% average due to the location.  This occurs all through the center of the US due to the prevailing winds.

Other sites don't do as well. Take the Stetson mountain project.  GE was told that that particular park would only operate at 20% capacity, yet they still erected it.  Why is this?  The answer is two fold.  One, to create jobs.  Two, if the park DOESN'T Produce at optimum capacity, the owners can take a loss on their taxes.

Power companies aren't going to tell you that wind will produce 100% of the energy needed for the simple fact they don't want the cost of electricity to drop.  They also don't want to put their other plants (Coal, steam, etc) out of business.

T Boone Pickens got away from wind when the Guvmint brought Cap and Trade around.  They were going to tax the Bejeezus out of his parks, so he quit while he was ahead.

In short, it boils down to politics

Oil companies wont tell you there are vehicle designs that will get 100 miles to the gallon

How about the guy that made an HHO generator that turned water to burnable hydrogen and oxygen?  He actually ran his car for 100 miles on 4 ounces of water.  He's proven that You CAN turn water into an alternative fuel source, but we still don't have cars that run off water.  As a matter of fact, this guy pretty much dropped off the radar. I'm guessing he's sitting somewhere in the tropics living the good life after a load of cash suddenly dropped into his hands ;D

Again, thanks for the welcome everyone

[mr T]

Welcome Texas Sawmiller I think the dimensions I mentioned were based on overall specs not individual pieces From 2 miles away I dont think anyone would notice 100 ft more or less Just a thought

[pappy]

Wind parks here operate at about an 80% average due to the location.  This occurs all through the center of the US due to the prevailing winds.

So why are they planting them up here in the "County" (marginal :-\ check the link for northern Maine ) when the coast has the wind they need / want.. : Less affluent folks I'll bet is the answer ?
http://www.windpoweringamerica.gov/images/windmaps/me_50m_800.jpg

Other sites don't do as well. Take the Stetson mountain project.  GE was told that that particular park would only operate at 20% capacity, yet they still erected it.  Why is this?  The answer is two fold.  One, to create jobs.  Two, if the park DOESN'T Produce at optimum capacity, the owners can take a loss on their taxes.

Double take from the tax payers  = you and me?  Is Stetson even on the grid yet or is the juice going over to N.B. Canada like Mars Hill ??

That's what folks / me are upset about is we lose our vistas to these egg beaters to make juice for the New England grid, we don't get any of it !! Not even a break on our elec rates.. There isn't even a line to tie these mills into the N.E grid ...   :-\ all that money spent for 20% capacity..  >:(

Have a nice weekend everybody,, Im headed out into God's country on my snowmobile, should just about do it for our snow cover for this year.. Really nice views of the wilderness.  8)

Oh ya Sunday morning brunch at "Outback" down by the Fish river..  home fries, bacon, eggs, toast, coffee and some piece and quiet.  8) Stop on by..  ;)

[Mooseherder]

Sounds like fun Pappy.
Are the Fish biting yet?

[florida]

TexasSawMiller has made some pretty strong claims for wind.  The easiest way to refute baloney is with truth. Here's the latest chart from Bonneville Power showing how much wind power they are producing.
http://www.transmission.bpa.gov/business/operations/Wind/baltwg.aspx

The top line is total load and the bottom line is wind generated power. You can quickly see that on March 20th and the 23rd the windmills produced practically nothing and never produced capacity. Less anyone claim this is unusual click the link at the top of the page to go back through previous weeks, it's always the same and this is for windmills in prime locations. Bonneville Power has spent $3 billion dollars on windmills, most of which taxpayers paid for through subsidies that pay about 70% of the cost in 5 years. Bonneville Power makes money on their windmills not through power generation but through those subsidies which we pay for.

If this is not enough to convince anyone I'll be glad to post charts from Ireland or Germany showing the same results or worse.

[TexasSawmiller]

TexasSawMiller has made some pretty strong claims for wind.  The easiest way to refute baloney is with truth. Here's the latest chart from Bonneville Power showing how much wind power they are producing.
http://www.transmission.bpa.gov/business/operations/Wind/baltwg.aspx

The top line is total load and the bottom line is wind generated power. You can quickly see that on March 20th and the 23rd the windmills produced practically nothing and never produced capacity. Less anyone claim this is unusual click the link at the top of the page to go back through previous weeks, it's always the same and this is for windmills in prime locations. Bonneville Power has spent $3 billion dollars on windmills, most of which taxpayers paid for through subsidies that pay about 70% of the cost in 5 years. Bonneville Power makes money on their windmills not through power generation but through those subsidies which we pay for.

If this is not enough to convince anyone I'll be glad to post charts from Ireland or Germany showing the same results or worse.

Bonneville huh?  Well, hate to burst your bubble Florida, but Bonneville is a ways away from Texas

Like I said, some of the sites don't generate anywhere near capacity.  West Texas does alot better due to the prevailing winds

Have no idea how well Ireland or Germany do.  Frankly, I don't care.

Folks I'm not trying to start a flame war; far from it.  I'm giving you knowledge from my experiences here in Texas, where the parks will generate nearly at optimum with optimum winds.

Maybe thats why FPL has sites here in Texas and not in Florida?

Anyhoo.


I'm here to learn about sawmills, so off to anther part of the forum

[TexasSawmiller]

Welcome Texas Sawmiller I think the dimensions I mentioned were based on overall specs not individual pieces From 2 miles away I dont think anyone would notice 100 ft more or less Just a thought

Ahh I see, ok

Put together with a blade straight up it would be over 400 feet tall.  My bad for missing that point Mr T.

It will take up 10 miles of mt top there 400 ft high with 240 ft blades

The above line is what I'm looking at. Blades are still far less than 240 feet

[windy hill farm]

Hey guys I have a lot of wind towers about 1/2 mile from my house. Most of the local farmers would probably be out of business if it werent for the wind towers on there property. The other thing is the tax breaks for all property owners in town. The one thing I never here from the nimbys is that they want to help the farmers with there taxes. As far as I can tell nobody owes me a view of the country side. Just my opinion. p.s. wish I had 3or4 on my property, I would have ordered the WMLTsuper40 instead of the LT28 manual. Kevin Ellenburg N.Y.

[routestep]

My camp isn't in Danforth, it's at Stentson mountain. I look up and see the windmills that are in that picture Brad S. put up on the site here. I can hear them when they are turning and I'm a 20 minute walk up the mountain from to them. Maybe half mile or 3/4 miles. I don't get any money from them, neither does the county I live in. Give me a while and I might remember the company that has leased out the mountain for twenty years. I'm in Penobscot and the windmills are in Washington Co. Like I said earlier the sound they make is a pulsating noise as if every time a blade passes in front of the support tower.  Its not a loud noise but it is there pulsing through the woods. I'd rather listen to the wing beats of the ravens when they pass overhead than the windmills over on the mountain.