I have my eye on a tract that my family used to own. The owner might sell it back to me. But she clear cut the acreage (30 acres) several years ago. It was planted in loblolly pine, I think it was 2007. I am not as interested in profit from pines as I am a diversified forest forever more. Anyone have any tips on how to go about this? At my age, I might have 20 years left, so, I can't wait for the pines to fully mature and then start over. I need to diversify this plot somehow. Meaning plant some hardwoods. I am more partial to hardwoods than pines. Although, a couple/few acres here and there of, nice straight pines is rather attractive.
If I were to go by standard practice for pines, they will be due for a thinning in a few years, and then, what, another thinning maybe ten years after that? But is there anything I could do now or at the time of the first (next) thinning? Or, when time for first thinning, don't just cut the fifth row but maybe totally (or almost totally) clear a few acres here and there and plant a diversified mix of trees in its place? As for the thinning, I don't want to use the modern practice of thinning an entire row; it looks too artificial. If you're in it for profit, that doesn't matter. But I am focusing on building a diversified forest, growing big trees, and aesthetics.
Or if anyone can point me to more info somewhere, thanks!
Just leave it alone and the sweetgum will overtake the pines ;D
Some areas are different than others, but I've seen some really oak regeneration in thinned loblolly. Tracts that have been a 4th row thinned have enough sunlight hitting the ground for oaks to get started, but prevents some of the other junk from really thriving. Combine that with prescribed burning and you can further reduce the thinner barked species. You would want sufficient oak regeneration and have it tall enough to be competitive before removing the pine over story. Starting oaks at ground level in clear cuts is tough. Sweetgum,poplar all the others will out compete them in full sunlight... then throw in a few invasives like privet and it will be harder. Some others may have different results, but I've seen quite a few plantations that get fairly good oak regen a few years after thinning.
Quote from: curdog on January 20, 2017, 06:21:13 PM
Some areas are different than others, but I've seen some really oak regeneration in thinned loblolly. Tracts that have been a 4th row thinned have enough sunlight hitting the ground for oaks to get started, but prevents some of the other junk from really thriving. Combine that with prescribed burning and you can further reduce the thinner barked species. You would want sufficient oak regeneration and have it tall enough to be competitive before removing the pine over story. Starting oaks at ground level in clear cuts is tough. Sweetgum,poplar all the others will out compete them in full sunlight... then throw in a few invasives like privet and it will be harder. Some others may have different results, but I've seen quite a few plantations that get fairly good oak regen a few years after thinning.
By
regeneration, do you mean leave it alone and let nature populate the tract or do you mean to actually plant oaks?
Oak is going to need a nearby seed source. The seeds are moved by gravity and small critters (squirrels etc) If your pine is adjacent to an Oak forest, then some seeds will be spread into it, If not, you need to give nature a hand.
In this situation I would look at a doing a thinning harvest, as soon as it becomes commercially viable. Like the value of the logs covers the cost of the harvesting. But do the harvest in sections. Small areas, maybe 1/4 or 1/2 an acre, with surrounding pines left standing. This gives you smaller and manageable clearings that you can plant with the species you want to have. They receive good light, but they are sheltered which is good for your new trees. That gives you some nice sheltered clearings for your new trees to grow.
For the guys doing the harvesting, they can take out these blocks easily enough, as long as you give them skid trails that may be only one row wide. Then make sure you leave skid trails for the next harvest, so you don't have to mess with your new trees.
Getting an "old growth" forest takes serious time. Given 20 years? You could have a "forest" with some nice younger trees, and a heap of saplings. Come back in 50 more years...
Think about both thinning and clearcutting the stand in patches when it reaches thinning size. Commercial thinning can happen when the pines reach 40 feet in height. Create a mosaic of clearcut areas intermixed with areas that are just thinned. Thin the thinning patches to about 60 trees per acre. You will not be able to see a row effect with this level of removal. The pines will continue to grow and get big.
The clearcut patches will naturally regenerate with hardwood, and some hardwoods will come in under the pines. You could leave about 50% of the area in heavily thinned patches and 50% of the area clearcut of pine. Leave all hardwoods that are already there. There will be more in there than you think.
Be aware that regeneration will come back over time, but the clearcut areas will be very tangled and thick for a number of years. However, the deer, rabbits, and other critters will love you. There is no instant pudding, not matter what you do. Time means very little to Mother Nature, just humans.
Trimming off the lower branches of those left after thinning to let more light in will help with natural regeneration.
WDH is spot on - thin it heavy and let mother nature do the rest. We've got a saying down this way - if you want to grow beautiful hardwood, plant loblolly pine :D There's some truth to that - a lot of the hardwoods develop in the understory of the faster growing pines - thin out the pines, hardwoods break out with increased sunlight.
Quote from: VT_Forestry on January 23, 2017, 09:45:12 AM
WDH is spot on - thin it heavy and let mother nature do the rest. We've got a saying down this way - if you want to grow beautiful hardwood, plant loblolly pine :D There's some truth to that - a lot of the hardwoods develop in the understory of the faster growing pines - thin out the pines, hardwoods break out with increased sunlight.
Do you mean they will just pop up or do they need to be planted?
Quote from: Rural on January 23, 2017, 07:46:50 AM
Trimming off the lower branches of those left after thinning to let more light in will help with natural regeneration.
That seems like that would take a long time no matter what you use. What type of equipment do you use for that? Are these limbs going to be over one's head?
QuoteDo you mean they will just pop up or do they need to be planted?
Hardwoods will naturally regenerate as long as there is a source of seeds nearby. Different trees spread seed in different ways. Some, like oaks have large nuts that have to be carried by some means, so they may not spread very far. Others are spread by wind and birds, and seeds can end up miles from the seed tree. If you want oaks and walnut, and there are none nearby, then you probably want to help things out by planting some. Birds will probably carry cherry seeds in from much further away.
QuoteThat seems like that would take a long time no matter what you use. What type of equipment do you use for that? Are these limbs going to be over one's head?
Locally pine plantations are often "lift pruned" to improve the value of the first log. Hand tools and an light aluminium ladder are the tools of choice. First prune from the ground only takes a minute, later prunes up to maybe 16 ft take a couple of minutes to complete (with some practice). It's worth doing here because "pruned" logs attract a premium at the mill because if they are pruned correctly they are ~80% knot free wood, which is much more valuable down the supply chain.
This doesn't seem to be done much in the US, so there isn't that extra premium paid for the logs, so of course no one bothers with the pruning. Chicken and egg scenario I guess.
Not sure if it's worth doing in your scenario? It would help let more light into the under-story for your new seedlings / saplings, but you have to weigh up the amount of work it's going to take.
Quote from: livemusic on January 23, 2017, 12:36:07 PM
Quote from: Rural on January 23, 2017, 07:46:50 AM
Trimming off the lower branches of those left after thinning to let more light in will help with natural regeneration.
That seems like that would take a long time no matter what you use. What type of equipment do you use for that? Are these limbs going to be over one's head?
It is indeed a slow and painstaking undertaking but opens up an area considerably and permits you to walk through the plantation without fighting branches in your face. I use loppers for the small branches and a small chainsaw for the rest trimming to about 6 or 7'. Doing a small area at a time as other chores permit helps...... Mine are white pine, your pine may grow differently, I have no experience with that variety!
I use one of these:
http://www.logrite.com/store/Item/Contractors-Saw
Very fast-cutting and light weight saw. I don't think we get a premium around here for pruned logs, but I just like the woods better after I've done it. It sure makes cruising easier.
Quote from: enigmaT120 on January 26, 2017, 03:02:30 PM
I use one of these:
http://www.logrite.com/store/Item/Contractors-Saw
Very fast-cutting and light weight saw. I don't think we get a premium around here for pruned logs, but I just like the woods better after I've done it. It sure makes cruising easier.
I hope you will come back to this thread!
Interesting that they say it will remove most finger or thumb size limbs in one pull. But I think that is pine.
The 'user manual' from the site says: "The Contractor's Saw was not designed for pruning fruit trees or something that
moves around like firewood. The forces in these applications are often sideways and can kink this fairly fine blade."
What do they mean "moves around like firewood?" Is this saw usable on hardwoods?
Lastly, do you think this saw is superior to a saw such as this?
(https://mobileimages.lowes.com/product/converted/038313/038313022129.jpg)
Image above is a $30 saw from Lowes. Curious about the blade type, not necessarily that particular model.
I would need something that works for both hardwoods and pines. Or does that not exist, lol.
Thanks to responders, still learning!
So, I am learning that the pine market is depressed? I also learned that southern pines (loblolly) need to be about 40' tall for first thinning? I'd say these are maybe 20'. So, that is 5-10 years away if I waited for 'normal' first thinning? Ok, so if I did this today, would it bring any profit? I have done some calculating and on the 30 acre tract, about 20 acres of it is pine. The rest is powerline ROW and also hardwood areas, possibly due to a poor pine planting operation. For one thing, they didn't plant all the way to the property boundary in a certain section of the property, which meant several acres didn't get planted to pine. If it brought profit, is it very little?
My reason for asking is that since this goal is not profit driven, if it would bring little to no profit, why not just go in there and thin it right now to get the hardwoods going? Maybe along the lines of as WDH suggested in this thread... a mosaic of some clearcut areas and in other areas, leave 60 trees/acre?
Lastly, if I were to thin/clear, how do you do that if you are not going to harvest? Do you cut them with a chainsaw or what? I have a Husqvarna 345FR Brush Cutter / Clearing Saw, and it works great but I'd say 3" to 4" diameter is about the limit. Bulldozer?
Quote from: livemusic on March 13, 2017, 11:29:49 AM
So, I am learning that the pine market is depressed? I also learned that southern pines (loblolly) need to be about 40' tall for first thinning? I'd say these are maybe 20'. So, that is 5-10 years away if I waited for 'normal' first thinning? Ok, so if I did this today, would it bring any profit?
Lastly, if I were to thin/clear, how do you do that if you are not going to harvest? Do you cut them with a chainsaw or what? I have a Husqvarna 345FR Brush Cutter / Clearing Saw, and it works great but I'd say 3" to 4" diameter is about the limit. Bulldozer?
As to the first question. No. No profit. It will cost you to have it thinned if the trees are not of merchantable size.
If you want to thin, anyway, you would be best to hire a contractor with a fellerbuncher to cut and lay the thinned pines in piles to rot. Doing it with a chainsaw is very hard manual work. Unless you do it yourself, you may find it hard to get anyone to come in and do it manually.
Locally smaller pine plantations a generally "thinned to waste" because the value of the post or pulp "logs" is less than the cost, not to mention the possible damage that mechanical harvesting may do to your crop trees.
And basically it's walk along with a chainsaw and drop the excess trees, leaving them to rot. A good operator can do this pretty efficiently, and pick the better crop trees to leave, and taking out the deformed / runts / double leaders first. Keep the best crop trees rather than trying to keep a fixed pattern. Better to keep two good trees that are close, and remove three rubbish ones around them, which still leaves them with room to grow.
This is then basically the last expense (or work) in the plantation, and the crop trees are left to mature for another 15-20 years before being clear cut.
I know the US system tends to plan on several thinning harvests, but it's hard to make those first ones pay unless there is a good market for the wood.
Quote from: Ianab on March 13, 2017, 05:18:20 PM
Locally smaller pine plantations a generally "thinned to waste" because the value of the post or pulp "logs" is less than the cost, not to mention the possible damage that mechanical harvesting may do to your crop trees.
And basically it's walk along with a chainsaw and drop the excess trees, leaving them to rot. A good operator can do this pretty efficiently, and pick the better crop trees to leave, and taking out the deformed / runts / double leaders first. Keep the best crop trees rather than trying to keep a fixed pattern. Better to keep two good trees that are close, and remove three rubbish ones around them, which still leaves them with room to grow.
This is then basically the last expense (or work) in the plantation, and the crop trees are left to mature for another 15-20 years before being clear cut.
I know the US system tends to plan on several thinning harvests, but it's hard to make those first ones pay unless there is a good market for the wood.
If I were to do this myself, with a chainsaw as you said, is there a need to cut at ground level? Is waist high about as good, will the tree die quickly?
I suppose I could also check into getting a chain best suited for pine?
Quote from: WDH on January 21, 2017, 07:36:41 AM
Think about both thinning and clearcutting the stand in patches when it reaches thinning size. Commercial thinning can happen when the pines reach 40 feet in height. Create a mosaic of clearcut areas intermixed with areas that are just thinned. Thin the thinning patches to about 60 trees per acre. You will not be able to see a row effect with this level of removal. The pines will continue to grow and get big. ...
Say, as for thinning to 60/acre, how would one do that? I mean, choose the trees to keep. I don't mean determining ones that are health worthy, I mean, how would you do it such that you end up with about 60/acre? An acre is a square about 208' by 208', so, at the end, if you really did achieve that very density, you would have 60 dots randomly spaced out in that square. On foot, with chainsaw, how do you achieve that density?
Hmmm... back to high school geometry...
1 ac = 43560 sq ft
60 trees/acre desired
726 sq ft per tree
26.94 ft = each side of a square equal to 726 sq ft
So, in a 'perfect' layout, if you had a tree approximately every 27 ft, you'd have about 60 trees/acre?
Is the above correct?
Trees per acre is generally an average. Pick out the best looking trees for keeping at an approximate spacing and some acres will have more than 60 some will have less. But it will average out at roughly 60.
No use for the pine as firewood? I know up here there's a little value in small softwoods for sugaring firewood but obviously that's not the case down there. In any case I wouldn't use up 5-10 years of my life waiting for it to be profitable to thin out the pine if you want to see the place back in hardwood.
Yes, Sir! Your math is correct!
Around here, (I'm around 100 miles east of live music) it mostly depends on market. I've had several pieces of the old family farm thinned. Mostly it's a break even at best. You be lucky to get enough income to pay the logger. Usually goes for pulp or chips. Last piece of grown over corn field paid 50 cents a ton. Up side, you get your timber thinned for free. That's a long term situation.
I wonder what the density of the pines is at this time. I got to wondering about how many chainsaw cuts it would be if I did it myself. I have read that density on pine plantations is 200 to 800 per acre. I will use a 'small' number of 300. If I leave 60 trees/acre, that means I am cutting 240 trees/acre! 20 x 240 = 4,800 trees cut. I could certainly do it over a period of time, but that's a lot of cutting! I would like to ask these questions again...
If I were to do this myself, with a chainsaw as you said, is there a need to cut at ground level? Is waist high about as good, will the tree die quickly?
I suppose I could also check into getting a chain best suited for pine?
This "thin to waste" has me thinking. I'll make another trip and talk with my thinning guy, but with the price so low, every option is a serious consideration. I would lop them at waist height because they should not re-sprout.
Waist high is ok if you don't plan on driving a tractor or a ATV through it. I myself cut all my stumps low. But I am driving a tractor through my land too.
I have about 14 acres of 40 year old white pine which I have been selectively thinning over the years (to return to mixed bush) and the only way I have found to use the pine thus cut that makes any sense is to bring in a mill (dont have my own) and saw it into boards or beams for my own use (rather than buy lumber from the 'store'!). Even if I cut and haul it to the road myself the amount I could get for a truck load is not worth the effort. On the other hand over the last 10 years or so I have sided my house and built and sided a two car garage / workshop with it and 'saved' many $$! The smaller stuff is still good for 'crafts' and the like once sawn......
Quote from: Rural on March 15, 2017, 10:59:41 AM
I have about 14 acres of 40 year old white pine which I have been selectively thinning over the years (to return to mixed bush) and the only way I have found to use the pine thus cut that makes any sense is to bring in a mill (dont have my own) and saw it into boards or beams for my own use (rather than buy lumber from the 'store'!). Even if I cut and haul it to the road myself the amount I could get for a truck load is not worth the effort. On the other hand over the last 10 years or so I have sided my house and built and sided a two car garage / workshop with it and 'saved' many $$! The smaller stuff is still good for 'crafts' and the like once sawn......
This idea has intrigued me of late and I have done quite a bit of research on it. On my own land, I have several large hardwoods down due to wind. However, for this particular tract, I suppose it is not apropos because the pine trees are not big enough. I wondered about that... if they could be milled into posts or something. I don't know what size they would need to be. It's a shame to just 'waste' them but I guess that's just the way it is for young trees.
If you cut them below the first live limb, they will not re-sprout. The Stump/stem left should rot out pretty quickly if they are young.
Quote from: livemusic on March 15, 2017, 11:06:07 AM
I wondered about that... if they could be milled into posts or something.
Pine posts will rot quick with ground contact. The ones used for privacy fence etc. are treated.
Quote from: Rural on March 15, 2017, 10:59:41 AM
Even if I cut and haul it to the road myself the amount I could get for a truck load is not worth the effort.
What are you cutting? I made a bunch of money on my white pine logs. Even what little pulp I got I made money. This was on my own land.