GRAND FIR question

[Whit Spurzon]

Will understory Grand Fir trees - age 10-40 years - "release" once the canopy is opened up due to logging?

Thanks in advance.

[BaldBob]

Many will, but there are several major problems with depending on them for "advanced regeneration" for a future crop.

1. They are very vulnerable to sunscald, and those that don't die from it remain weakened ( and thus more vulnerable to other pests/diseases) for a considerable time.

2. Grand Fir that have been released from shade are much more likely to suffer extensive mortality (rather than just temporary growth loss) following defoliation by Western Spruce Budworm than trees that were never suppressed. This characteristic remains for at least 30 years after "release". (This is significant since Budworm outbreaks seem to occur in 20 year cycles).

3. If Indian Paint Fungus  was present in any significant amount in the overstory trees, the understory is already inoculated and the fungus will become active in those trees about the time they start to self prune or suffer some injury. i.e. they are a crop of future culls.

[SwampDonkey]

I don't know anything about grand fir. But if I had 40 year old suppressed balsam fir no taller than 6 feet, I would not depend on them for the next crop. 10 year old balsam 3 feet tall on the other hand will release well. The most vulnerable time for balsam in a release cut is when the cutting is done in winter, and the April sun burns the shade needles up before the ground thaws out to allow water up take.

[pappy19]

On the upper end of your scale, the 40 year olds, if they are dominants, then they should do alright. Lots of things are different in the western firs, as opposed to eastern balsams. Most foresters in the west don't care much for "white" fir or Grand fir and try more for Douglas fir as a replacement, if at all possible.

[SwampDonkey]

I was talking suppressed over topped fir in my example. I find that the small trees with big ages are full of rot, the bark is dried up, the wood is hard to cut with a spacing saw and ain't worth a pinch of snot. Nexfor/Fraser's thinned acres and acres of that stuff and are coming to the realization that thinning for the sake of thinning is not always worth the effort and money. :D You can pick those trees out to. There will be a tight cluster of whorls at about 4-8 feet, limbs full of lichens, usually a nice logging scar up the side and then all the sudden 10 years after the cut, the leader growth starts getting decent. By another 10 years the tree is dead with woody wood pecker holes after the carpenter ants and the diameter is about 6 inches.  :D

[Clark]

What side of the Cascades are you on?  I know that BaldBob is on the east side and presume his information pertains to those conditions.  If you're on the wet side I think you will have slightly better luck, but as others said, the younger the better.

If I were you I'd try to keep 'em.  A guy can only look at so much douglas fir before you get sick of it.

Clark

[pappy19]

Actually, in the western states that have Grand Fir, aka White fir or pith fir(when you cut into a large diameter Grand fir and hit a water seam it smells like pith) they make alot of fiber on a good Grand fir site. Young stands of Grand fir can make alot of pulp wood and chips. Fact is that after 60-80 years, if it didn't get root rot, it got hit with any number of other problems and wouldn't make any decent studs, saw timber or anything else. Too soft and prone to warp even when kiln dried. Grand fir habitat sites are really good timber growing sites, but your best bet is to remove all of the Grand fir and switch to Doug fir and Ponderosa pine; even Tamarack is a better species and will grow great on a Grand fir site.

[Whit Spurzon]

GREAT stuff guys.  Thank you.

This stand is on the wet side.  The stand is mostly Doug Fir and Western Red Cedar.  There are a few Western Hemlocks and a Grand fir populating the site too.  My thought was to keep them if they will release to add a little age/height/species diversity to the stand.

Thanks again!

[pappy19]

Go with the Doug fir and cedar. Forget the hemlock and Grand fir, you don't want them if managing for the best timber species. Tamarack will grow there as well; sounds too wet for Ponderosa, not enough sun.

[Clark]

...The stand is mostly Doug Fir and Western Red Cedar.  There are a few Western Hemlocks and a Grand fir populating the site too.  My thought was to keep them if they will release to add a little age/height/species diversity to the stand.

Thanks again!

Pretty tough to find a diverse site on the wet side of the Cascades so I think your idea of keeping some of the grand fir and hemlock for diversity is good.  While it's true that you could push it for timber production one must realize that if you own the land you live with looking at it for how many years?  Straight douglas fir or any monoculture is about the most boring thing out there and why would you want to emulate what they have done on thousands of acres of industrial land?

Clark

[mtngun]

Around here, Grand Fir is kind of a weed.  It grows aggressively in shady areas and will push out more valuable species if Smoky the Bear protects it from wildfires, as is usually the case.   The thin bark, low branches, and short lifespan result in a forest that does not tolerate fire well -- it burns easily and does not survive the fire. 

If it is in a remote area, Grand Fir may hardly be worth what it costs to haul to the mill.  At a recent clearcut in my neighborhood, they just cherry picked the Douglas and Ponderosa and left the Grand Fir laying on the ground to rot or be burned.   They were trying to get rid of it and stimulate the growth of Douglas, which is worth more and is more fire resistant.   

As far as diversity and wildlife goes, Grand Fir forests do not seem to be very wildlife friendly.   They grow very thick so that little sunlight reaches the ground, so there is little grass.   Elk and deer will bed down in Grand Fir, because the thick forest provides good cover, but they travel elsewhere to browse and play.   I see more game in stands of mature Ponderosa and Douglas.

[tonich]

Don't know about Grand Fir, but Silver Fir (Abies Alba) is able to stay/be kept suppressed for up to 60-70 years of age, without loosing its growing potential at all. It must be similar in you case.

[SwampDonkey]

I think Pacific silver fir is Amabilis isn't it? In Canada, we call it by it's latin species name, Amabilis fir. Or are you talking a European species? I think specimens of Amabilis grown in Europe have been hammered badly by balsam woolly aphid. The tree is often nicknamed "balsam" in BC. But true balsam fir only grows as far west as northern Alberta. They were calling trees balsam out where I worked and I said "that doesn't look like balsam fir here in the east." But actually, it does look very close. On the Queen Charlottes however there is no fir of any kind. The only Ambilis I remember was on Sommerville Island in Porcher Canal next to the Alaskan border. We spent all one winter cruising a bunch of timber around there and the government decided they wouldn't be logging it. I think the terrain was unstable because of gullies and slope. On the mainland I only remember sub-alpine (alpine) fir except down along the water (Ocean) where I think there was Amabilis. They proved there was Doug. fir up along Douglas Channel and even further up around Stewart.

I just read in the text here that Amabilis and noble fir have been called "larch" from the time it started to be marketed in the Orient.

[Tillaway]

West side Grand Fir tend to be much nicer than on East side.  Few problems with frost cracks and I have not seen the Indian Paint out here.

It has the same value as hemlock and as of this week the few mills that are accepting logs tend to be taking white wood (true firs, hemlock, spruce) only.  Current local value is camp run at about $290 / mbf if you can get a purchase order.  Logging costs tend to be right around there or a little more than the current value in these parts.