I was going to start to construct a 500' fence along part of the 1100' northern boundary of my property. I could only find one of the boundary pins set by the original survey so I thought it prudent to hire the surveyor who did the original survey to verify the existing markers before construction.
To make a long story short, the reason I couldn't find the remaining markers is because I was looking in the wrong place. It would seem that my northern boundary description is about 210' south of where I thought it was. Except for being a major bummer, this wouldn't be a problem except...
Before purchasing the land I viewed an aerial photo (in my possession) of the property with approximate boundarys drawn on the map. This is the property I thought I purchase. I know, doesn't mean squat.
The other issue is that the tax boundaries on Google maps shows the locations of boundaries that are the same as the aerial photos show AND they don't show another boundary where the original survey markers were put raising another question... Am I paying taxes on land I don't own?
I don't think anybody can answer my questions, but I don't even know where to start to try and find the real situation. There are about 5 acres in question. I paid $1470 per acre and the original survey cost $3300. A new survey may cost more and I don't know exactly what that would do for me other than confirm my suspicions that the original survey was incorrect. To my understanding, it would not correct the description on my deed.
Anybody have any ideas where I might start to try and sort this all out?
Oh, and I don't possess the title, I'm still paying for the land. Would the loan association be interested in this an possibly helping?
You say original survey. Is the description on it the same as what was used when the purchase was recorded? Did you get title insurance? check what your legal description says. I would recommend getting a survey of your own. Be aware you may not find it to your liking though. I did mine several years after we bought. I found I had land where I thought I didn't some that I thought I did was not mine. I ended up with a few acres less than I though, but at least now I know what is what and where my lines actually are. You can get the legal description from the county courthouse and should be able to see the survey you mention there also.
I don't have the title in my possessions, the finance company has it. I have title insurance for the areas specified on the survey done before I purchased, this is what I refer to as the "original survey". I do not believe that I have paid for anything that isn't mine, just that I think what is mine is more than what the survey map shows.
I called the tax assessors office a few minutes ago. The lady gave me doublespeak and suggested I come and look at the maps, which was where I thought I should starte anyway. She said I can view all of the tax parcel boundaries at least two deep all around my property. If the maps show another parcel between the northern border defined by the pins and where I think the northern border actually is (210' to the north of the pins), then I will have to accept that the pins are correct. If it doesn't show another parcel, then what? I think the land is mine but the survey says different?
Anyway, that's just a hypothetical situation for the time being. I'll visit the assessors office soon!
I don't know if surveys in AL give GPS co-ordinates for the pins, but if they do you could do a quick check on your own that way.
My Father and me,I was young,so I just handled one end of the rope,use to measure land out on the farm,And there was alot of it. Not all square pieces either.There has been some that had thier land surveyed. Dad did a real good job.One place I gained about 20 feet and this was a piece of land a mile long. The footage was taken off the deeds. We started at the road and would go into the woods. Stonewalls help out alot too.
We have properties here online with an aerial overlay. However, it states that these online maps are not legal surveys. And I know I also read that they were simply digitized off old maps. New surveys that get done since the system was set up are registered in the system, so if I sell the same parcel I don't have to pay a title fee and no one can dispute it down the road, as it is considered a quieted title. We found an error on one of these maps used to digitize from and it was a rectangle of land taken from a corner of the farm. And this area was a remote spot with no roads to it, except along a reserved right of way that exists only on paper, nothing built. There was never any such rectangle taken out and never described as such. It got fixed, but the neighbors got a hold of this map and cut our wood off it. Again not a legal survey map, but someone used it as such to cut our wood. ::) That rectangle is now magically gone from the system.
Land survey company usually have insurance, called "errors and omissions" insurance. This is in case they make a major mistake, and it's suppose to cover their butt if they do.
If you find they were in error then use that fact to get your second survey cost reduced.
Sometimes this types of maps are drawn by the Realtor and they are not accurate at all. I don't know if you can go after them about that or not.
Figuring out which land your paying taxes on is very important.
Jim Rogers
In my county you would be going to the wrong office. You should be going to the county clerk's office to see the actual survey and plat. The tax assessors office in my county has most of the boundaries wrong. They just look at areal photos and guess at the boundaries.
Most deeds have the description of the land listed on them and they are public information. We have "registry of deeds" around here, by county. You should be able to get a copy of your deed and start measuring , plotting, your purchased area.
As Holmes suggests, start by familiarizing yourself with your deed by way of the county registry. Then work back in time to follow the previous deeds/chain of custody by grantor/grantee. Look for consistencies from one deed to the next, and make notes of any outlying information. You should probably follow the trail for the adjoining property(ies) as applicable.
You may be able to do a lot of this by way of the internet, if your registry has a searchable database.
This is an investment of your time, but it can be a valuable learning experience. If you have more money than time, you can consult with/hire an abstractor to do much of the research at what should be a reasonable fee.
Most certainly do some legwork on your own prior to hiring another survey, as the surveyor will need to do similar research, and you will be in a better position to accept/reject their decision having done so.
Surveyors interpret data, and then delineate boundaries based on their interpretation. They are human, which makes them fallible. No doubt, more than one landowner has discovered their surveyor has made leaps in logic/linguistics in order to tell them what they wanted to hear, to their own eventual detriment.
Generally speaking, the tax maps are a poor indicator of who actually owns what. I.E., the deed most likely supercedes the tax record. A landowner may file a faulty deed/plan with the town, and the town may have no obligation to verify the validity of that deed, or square it with the adjoining properties prior to sending off the tax bill. So long as the town gets their tax dollars, they don't need to care if the correct party is paying.
However you proceed, start with your own education to at least clarify your position.
For AZ, it is the county recorder's office. I'm sure it is something similar, regardless of where you are.
To lookup deeds here,where my house is,it's the County Courthouse.Than I own land in another town,I'm on 2 town lines,and 2 County lines,that is in a small city. On my tax map is a book number and page number. I need that to find what I want. But I suppose it could be looked up at the same place by your name. Copies are kinda pricey,but you will need that.It's VERY simple and VERY interesting to look up the deeds. I have sent a few people to lookup deeds and they all come back to tell me how simple and interesting it was. The clerks will point you in the right directions too. Or at least the ones around here do.I have been to 3 diffeant places and the hardest is just finding the place and finding parking.
All properties here have an 8 digit number called a PID and then there is a PAN number which is where the ownership info is found. And that PAN could have 1 or several PID's because the owner has several properties. We haven't done things by counties in decades. But we have parishes within counties that the tax authority is under. I still think we have to go the the local Service NB desk within the county to see old documents since we have several parishes with no office to go to. I know in my county we have 2 offices, but probably 16 parishes.
O.K. lots of questions/thoughts here
Forget the tax boundaries they are approximate at best and prepared for a quick look and to assign Tax Numbers.
Do you have a copy of the survey map?? If not, get one
The actual survey map should tell the story right there, you did not mention if the pin you found was shown on the map.
I would first talk with the Land Surveyor that prepared the first survey and map
tell him your concern he/they should be able to defend/explain what they prepared.
Talk with your neighbors ask them for copies of maps or descriptions be honest tell them you have a concern and are uncertain.
As others have pointed out go the clerks office get your filed deed and then work the Grantor/Grantee index backwards.
Check those deeds back in time
You should also pull the adjoiners deeds and see if the common boundries are in harmony with yours.
The Surveyor who did the "first survey" should have done this at a minimum
With that, I am a bit confused on your situation are you concerned you are short on your land, long or shifted?
Also, it may be wise to engage another surveyor who has worked in that particular area in the past
he may have information such as old maps or survey files that others are not privy to or simply did not research.
Of Note, Alabama is a PLSS state
http://nationalatlas.gov/articles/boundaries/a_plss.html
remember, once man started to divide land it became a big jigsaw puzzle and all the pieces don't always fit.
let us know what happens.
best
DGDrls
There are a number of pretty good suggestions and I will give you some of mine from 30 years of reviewing deeds, surveys and plats.
1) Do get your land surveyed based upon your warranty or quit claim deed.
2) Go to your county assessor and ask to see the tax map showing your property. Ask what the acerage that is listed on your assessment. See if that acerage matches the acerage you paid for and is consistant with your deed.
3) If there is an error either in the legal description or location, or both, then you may have a claim with the real estate agent, broker, title insurance and/or the original seller. If you accepted a quit claim deed, then you do not have a leg to stand on since that type of deed has no guarantee of anything. If you have a warranty deed, then the seller is warranting title via the legal description on the deed, which usually includes a total acerage.
4) If there is an issue with a boundary fence or legal description, then your surveyor will need to get a copy of the adjoining deed to see where there is a problem. Once identified, you will need to obtain a "Boundary Agreement" and then a notification of correction deed from your neighbor and also submit one for recording yourself. A copy of the registered surveyor's new plat of the new boundary or legal description should be attached to the recorded document.
Hope this helps; keep us posted as to your outcome.
Here in BC the legal boundaries are determined by official markers "on the ground". Iron pins, monuments, wooden posts, cairns, bearing trees, etc. The legal maps only show where the markers were placed.
My property has 9 12 sides and had never been surveyed. It was described by "meets and bounds". In other words, all the land around it had been "surveyed" so the legal description is made up entirely of references to the other properties.
Some of those properties had been laid out by surveyors and iron pins placed. One entire side of the property was defined by two three mining claims. The claims had been officially marked and recorded, but no one had done a formal survey on them. There were at least three maps showing where the mining claims were located, but none of the maps agreed.
I finally had the place surveyed. I lost a small part of it -- all the maps were wrong in that area but in 1949 a surveyor had discovered one of corner posts of one of the mining claims and marked it on his map.
I had found an iron pin when I bought the place and it corresponded roughly with one of the mining claims maps. But it was the wrong kind of iron pin and much too short. The only thing that gave it credibility was the remains of a tree beside it with a clear marking on the face -- BT 1/2. That meant "bearing tree" and 1/2 foot. Sure enough there was the pin, 6" away. This was where the corner was shown on one map, but hundreds of feet away from where it was shown on the other maps.
The surveyors were troubled by the pin, so they set out to find another corner of the mining claim, assuming the mysterious pin as correct. Two hundred metres away (700') mostly up hill over steep bedrock and thick forest, they came to a large area of bedrock with a hiking trail beside it. No evidence of a cairn (but hikers could have disturbed it over the hundred plus years since it was theoretically placed).
So the surveyors made a sharp turn and went looking for the next corner, another 200 metres away, more or less level but still through thick forest. They reached the edge of a gully filled with thick brush and really started to wonder if this was all worth it. Then one of them noticed a pile of rocks on the other side of the gully. They struggled across to it and found a cairn -- with a 4" square hole down the centre and some rotted wood in the bottom. Right where the mining claim corner should have been :).
Had they not found that cairn, I would probably have lost a significant chunk of my property. Had I not found the remains of that bearing tree, they probably would never have looked. And the only reason there were any remains of a tree to be found was that a forest fire had burned through here 100 years ago and pretty much kiln-dried the stump with it's marking.
Pappy 19, good input
I would add number 4 must be used with great care and as a last resort. The surveyor should be looking at the adjoining deeds right out of the gate, he would/should only do this if he has exhausted all avenues in locating the "true" boundary and its simply undefinable due to conflicting deeds and field evidence or lack there of.
Lots of "rules of evidence" for the surveyor to follow
Including warranty deed v quit claim, deed intent,
Jr. Sr Rights based on parent parcel and order of other parcels being sold.
field evidence/monuments.
witness evidence.
PLSS system survey
DGDrls
Quote from: pappy19 on September 01, 2013, 05:55:40 PM
There are a number of pretty good suggestions and I will give you some of mine from 30 years of reviewing deeds, surveys and plats.
1) Do get your land surveyed based upon your warranty or quit claim deed.
2) Go to your county assessor and ask to see the tax map showing your property. Ask what the acerage that is listed on your assessment. See if that acerage matches the acerage you paid for and is consistant with your deed.
3) If there is an error either in the legal description or location, or both, then you may have a claim with the real estate agent, broker, title insurance and/or the original seller. If you accepted a quit claim deed, then you do not have a leg to stand on since that type of deed has no guarantee of anything. If you have a warranty deed, then the seller is warranting title via the legal description on the deed, which usually includes a total acerage.
4) If there is an issue with a boundary fence or legal description, then your surveyor will need to get a copy of the adjoining deed to see where there is a problem. Once identified, you will need to obtain a "Boundary Agreement" and then a notification of correction deed from your neighbor and also submit one for recording yourself. A copy of the registered surveyor's new plat of the new boundary or legal description should be attached to the recorded document.
Hope this helps; keep us posted as to your outcome.
Here's what I've found...
I got the description from the deed and it matches the tax assessors title. They have mapping software that plots the legal description. The facts are that 3 points on the survey were wrong, dating back to the survey that was done when I bought the property. When I contracted with the surveyor most recently, they just uncovered the incorrect pins that they set from the survey when I bought the place.
Bottom line, I just paid $500 for nothing. I am contemplating meeting face-to-face with the surveyor (company owner, not the guys who did the work) and explain my case. Best I'm hoping for is to get my money back or correcting the property markers. I really don't need the pins corrected, I know where they should be from the tax map... it IS accurate.
Don't really know how to proceed. Was going to contact the surveyor next week and try to arrange a meeting...
The meeting should go well, and they should reimburse you. If not, then be prepared to contact an attorney who will file an E&O (Errors and Omissions) suit. All such professionals carry E&O insurance.
Or do it again correctly for fees already paid. >:(
Quote from: grweldon on September 06, 2013, 07:54:05 AM
Quote from: pappy19 on September 01, 2013, 05:55:40 PM
There are a number of pretty good suggestions and I will give you some of mine from 30 years of reviewing deeds, surveys and plats.
1) Do get your land surveyed based upon your warranty or quit claim deed.
2) Go to your county assessor and ask to see the tax map showing your property. Ask what the acerage that is listed on your assessment. See if that acerage matches the acerage you paid for and is consistant with your deed.
3) If there is an error either in the legal description or location, or both, then you may have a claim with the real estate agent, broker, title insurance and/or the original seller. If you accepted a quit claim deed, then you do not have a leg to stand on since that type of deed has no guarantee of anything. If you have a warranty deed, then the seller is warranting title via the legal description on the deed, which usually includes a total acerage.
4) If there is an issue with a boundary fence or legal description, then your surveyor will need to get a copy of the adjoining deed to see where there is a problem. Once identified, you will need to obtain a "Boundary Agreement" and then a notification of correction deed from your neighbor and also submit one for recording yourself. A copy of the registered surveyor's new plat of the new boundary or legal description should be attached to the recorded document.
Hope this helps; keep us posted as to your outcome.
Here's what I've found...
I got the description from the deed and it matches the tax assessors title. They have mapping software that plots the legal description. The facts are that 3 points on the survey were wrong, dating back to the survey that was done when I bought the property. When I contracted with the surveyor most recently, they just uncovered the incorrect pins that they set from the survey when I bought the place.
Bottom line, I just paid $500 for nothing. I am contemplating meeting face-to-face with the surveyor (company owner, not the guys who did the work) and explain my case. Best I'm hoping for is to get my money back or correcting the property markers. I really don't need the pins corrected, I know where they should be from the tax map... it IS accurate.
Don't really know how to proceed. Was going to contact the surveyor next week and try to arrange a meeting...
So the survey map and description are correct and the pins in the field were set incorrectly?
I would certainly meet with the surveyor, he is still responsible for any corners his crew sets
Have the pins moved to their correct position. If your placing fence on the line make certain the property markers
are inter-visible for simplicity sake.
DGDrls
Fifty to sixty years ago my grandfather put up cross fences were he thought the land lines were. Each piece was forty acres and each of the kids got one. Fast forward to four years ago, one of my cousins had their land surveyed. All the land lines are off by ninety feet. It puts my old house real close to the land line, but it is something I can live with.
But the fence between the 40 I live on and the 40 of a different cousin is 90 feet to my bad. The west end of her 40 is 90 feet to her bad. Her BIL owns the next 40 and he loses 90 feet to me on the next 40. Since it all comes out the same in the end, no one has sprung for a survey. But if anyone sells, it will have to be done. The cost of clearing out old fence rows and putting up new fence would be big, not to mention a huge PITA.
Quote from: Larro Darro on September 07, 2013, 07:16:07 PM
Fifty to sixty years ago my grandfather put up cross fences were he thought the land lines were. Each piece was forty acres and each of the kids got one. Fast forward to four years ago, one of my cousins had their land surveyed. All the land lines are off by ninety feet. It puts my old house real close to the land line, but it is something I can live with.
But the fence between the 40 I live on and the 40 of a different cousin is 90 feet to my bad. The west end of her 40 is 90 feet to her bad. Her BIL owns the next 40 and he loses 90 feet to me on the next 40. Since it all comes out the same in the end, no one has sprung for a survey. But if anyone sells, it will have to be done. The cost of clearing out old fence rows and putting up new fence would be big, not to mention a huge PITA.
Well, maybe not, were the parcels divided out by the fences?? if the original fences are still up and everyone agrees with the fences no need to cause indigestion. File corrective deeds based on the fences. I have run across this in some city blocks to a smaller degree, 1-2 feet. fences, ocupation lines, hedges all shifted in the same direction. If you try to fix 1 you must fix all and then your upsetting boundries that are uncontested and in harmony with each-other.
DGDrls
Quote from: Larro Darro on September 07, 2013, 07:16:07 PM
Fifty to sixty years ago my grandfather put up cross fences were he thought the land lines were. Each piece was forty acres and each of the kids got one. Fast forward to four years ago, one of my cousins had their land surveyed. All the land lines are off by ninety feet. It puts my old house real close to the land line, but it is something I can live with.
But the fence between the 40 I live on and the 40 of a different cousin is 90 feet to my bad. The west end of her 40 is 90 feet to her bad. Her BIL owns the next 40 and he loses 90 feet to me on the next 40. Since it all comes out the same in the end, no one has sprung for a survey. But if anyone sells, it will have to be done. The cost of clearing out old fence rows and putting up new fence would be big, not to mention a huge PITA.
If all could agree that the fences are where they want them to stay, then some quit-claim deeds might correct the problem for the future.
I'm not even sure my cousins know the land lines are off. They all live in Rome Ga and don't get down here that often. Plus I still hold out the hope of buying at least one of the 40's. Until someone sells out of the family, I'm not going to worry about it. Changing it to match the fences would mean my home 40 would lose 2.7 acres, but the 40 at the pond would gain 2.7 acres.
That being the case, I'd suggest getting your ducks in line early, and if a 40 is of interest, see if the owner will sign a "Right of first refusal" agreement with you. i.e if they decide to sell, you get 1st chance to buy or let it go to another buyer. A friendly way to get your foot in the door, and to let them know you are interested.
Also, can get paper work lined up to handle the 90' errors, be it a judgement that the fence lines are the legal lines now that so many years have passed or some quit-claim deeds started. Just be the cost of filing the QC if everyone is happy, including the one at the pond who loses 90'. Has that one been paying taxes on the extra acreage?
Sorry for hijacking on the OP's thread. But may have some ideas for him too.
Met with the surveyor (business owner) today. Made an appointment yesterday, he said he had all morning open and suggested 8:00 and when I showed up at 7:55, he forgot he made the appointment. I explained the situation to him and just as we started to dig in, he told me he had to make a visit to a job site and was supposed to be there at 8:20. He handed me off to an associate who seemed to be very knowledgeable. I explained what I thought was wrong, even ventured a guess as to how it got that way. I asked if it was possible to overlay the tax parcel aerial view with the survey map that they did in 2007. The way he had to do it wasn't extremely accurate but it was accurate enough to see that there was an error. Apparently I will end up with more acreage than I thought I had. They don't know how they are going to fix the situation just yet, that would be up to the owner, but the associate said that most likely they would re-survey the northern boundary of my property and then create a quit-claim deed for the additional area. Since this was an error dating back to 2007 when I bought the property, I'm wondering if I should request my money back for the visit they did 3 weeks ago to re-mark the original (incorrect) points that are useless to me now. It also creates another issue that is a moral question more than anything else. I paid for the property by the acre. The acreage was based on the incorrect survey. Now it appears that I'm going to have an additional 3-5 acres that I didn't pay for? What do I do about that? Do I need to pay the seller for the additional acreage that I wasn't ever charged for? Not quite sure what to do...
I wouldn't do anything with the money until everything is final, including survey headaches. The question is really does 3.5 acres fall into the more or less category? Second question: If you ended up with less acreage than you thought you paid for, would the previous owner refund the difference? The answer is that it is settled as far as the previous owner is concerned, so if the amt of land is less than or more than what it was thought to be at the time of the sale, it stands. That is why the more or less clause is always present in a land transfer.
If the description in the deed is correct and it was just the pins that were misplaced, you've already paid for the land you didn't realize you had. That's the description that you both signed for at closing
A couple of comments:
Larro-Darro- You can still have everyone happy, IF everyone is really happy with their acerage as your Grandpa laid it out. All that needs to happen is everyone share in a boundary survey by a registered surveyor and have him do a plat of every new boundary. Then, the surveyor records a new survey agreement with the plat attached and all of your siblings sign as agreed. End of problem.
grweldon- The surveyor made an error and he is totally responsible for fixing it and paying for all error mistakes including but not limited to: cost of re-survey, cost of error in tax mistakes, cost to you of any investigations including your cost and time, cost of re-survey plat and recording costs, also any re-fencing costs due to the error. The surveyor is bonded and insured and he can either use that or file a claim with your attorney and then that will add to his liability. You can also file a claim with the state survey engineer and he could lose his license if he doesn't fix it as outlined above. Keep us posted.
Pappy,
I'm not out to "stick it" to anybody. So far the surveyor seems to be accepting of the fact that an error has occured. He has been cordial and professional. I would be happy if the survey is corrected and I get the money I paid to have 4 incorrect pins found refunded.
Mesquite,
I'm not sure the plus or minus is supposed to cover a 6% error. If the error would have uncovered that I paid for more acreage than actually got, I suppose I would have to take the loss and be good with the fact that I paid more per acre than I intended to. Legally I don't believe I am liable to pay the previous owner for the shortage and both of us understood that I was paying for. This is a moral issue.
Thanks all for your responses, I will update when everything is final.
I understand. If you want to, you can always write a check. I just wanted to point out that you don't have to. Writing the check will merely prove you are a good guy. ;D
Please understand... I don't WANT to write a check! How many people here have $6000 just laying around to GIVE away? I certainly don't and I don't necessarily want to be a GOOD guy, but rather a Godly guy...
From a moral standpoint, when the deal was done you acted in good faith and did not knowingly short pay, that deal is long done and your good fortune now is just that, good fortune.
GR,
I'm still not clear on just what has transpired and will wait to see what you post when final,
I still have questions ???
Did the survey area match the taxing agencies area when the sale was performed?
If you paid by the Ac. based on the survey which appears to be incorrect when compared to the deed
then the Surveyor should make good on his error to the seller and cover the cost/Ac. due.
did either of you have legal help with this sale??
Lots more questions but I'll hold-off for now.
Best
DGDrls
Regardless of where the surveyor put the stakes, what you paid for is what was described in the deed. Therefore, I don't understand why you think you would owe the previous landowner anything. The title company should have made sure it had a clear title with no discrepancies as well. Have the original surveyor put the pins in the right place and be done. Unless I'm missing something, this doesn't seem like a huge deal unless an adjoining landowner is disputing the line.
DGDRIS...
The taxing agency has only the legal descriptions of the property in bearing/distance format. Before I ever saw the map that the tax agency generated, I assumed that the pre-sale survey pins showed generally what the tax map eventually portrayed. I mistakenly took two of another surveyors rebar/cap markers as the pins that MY surveyor had set.
Over the last 6 years, gradually the pin locations were lost in my memory. When I went searching for them I could not find them. Seeing as I'm about to build a fence along my northern border I needed to know where the pins were. I called the surveyor in to re-identify the pins. He then uncovers the pins and I find out that they are significantly different from what I had originally assumed. What I had assumed matches the tax map (generated by the legal description, not the survey map).
The survey map (the drawing provided at closing, from a CAD file, shows a shape exactly like what I had assumed were my property lines, again, what the tax map eventually proved. The map provided by the surveyor is wrong. The geometry created by the pins on the drawing the surveyor created does not match up with the actual locations of the pins the surveyor set on the property when the pre-sale survey was done. I was ignorant of this fact because I assumed some pins from another surveyor marking other owner's property were actually pins set by MY surveyor marking MY property.
It turns out that the pins that mark other's boundaries are where my actual boundaries are when looking at the tax parcel map. There was an attorney that signed off on the closing documents. He worked for the real-estate broker that was offering the parcel on behalf of the seller. I did not have my own attorney.
NWP...
The total area of my land, what I paid for, was determined by the area calculation of the CAD file created by my surveyor. The area is incorrect because the map the surveyor created is incorrect. You may be familiar with the way many CAD systems work... you draw an enclosed shape then ask the software what the area of that shape is and it tells you. Because of this it appears that I actually own between 3 and 5 more acres than the surveyor's CAD map actually calculated. I PAID for 60.2 acres, the area the CAD file calculated from the incorrect boundaries. It appears now that I own 63-65 acres which means the actual owner got shorted by several thousand dollars for those extra acres...
Guys, I don't think I can explain it any better that this. If it doesn't make any more sense, I apologize. It's the best I can do at the moment. I'll let y'all know the results when the surveyor attempts to correct the error...
I understand now. I apologize. I thought the acreage had been figured off the legal description and not the incorrect survey. I'm surprised the previous landowner didn't realize the shortage of acres. Maybe they never really knew how many were there.
To start with I may be be missing something in your narrative.
If the previous owner saw the map and was on the ground to see what was going on then everybody should be happy. He could see what he was selling. None of us can be exact on acres by standing and looking at a piece of ground. Personally, I don't like the "per acre" method of selling. What I am interested is what a particuar plot is costing me on the bottom line. That is why there is a "more or less" on the deeds. I don't know what other pins would have been set, unless for a reference. I would think the surveyor would have to go back to the pre-sale survey and locate the proper pins and ignore anything else. The pre-sale survey is what you agreed on, anything else would be changing the description after the deal is done.
Quote from: NWP on September 12, 2013, 08:59:29 AM
I understand now. I apologize. I thought the acreage had been figured off the legal description and not the incorrect survey. I'm surprised the previous landowner didn't realize the shortage of acres. Maybe they never really knew how many were there.
No apology required... you didn't do anything wrong! Thanks for your replies and for following the thread...
Quote from: WH_Conley on September 12, 2013, 09:21:07 AM
To start with I may be be missing something in your narrative.
If the previous owner saw the map and was on the ground to see what was going on then everybody should be happy. He could see what he was selling. None of us can be exact on acres by standing and looking at a piece of ground. Personally, I don't like the "per acre" method of selling. What I am interested is what a particuar plot is costing me on the bottom line. That is why there is a "more or less" on the deeds. I don't know what other pins would have been set, unless for a reference. I would think the surveyor would have to go back to the pre-sale survey and locate the proper pins and ignore anything else. The pre-sale survey is what you agreed on, anything else would be changing the description after the deal is done.
This was my first land purchase. If I ever do it again, I'll do it on a per-parcel basis, but you do bring up a good point. The parcel was advertised as 62 acres plus or minus when I made the offer. I remember that I based my offer on the number of acres (62) divided by the amount I was willing to pay. When I made the offer, it was for the parcel, not based on the acreage amount (within reason). When the acreage surveyed out to 60.2, the offer amount wasn't changed, so I guess I'm not morally on the hook for any additional amount.
As for the previous landowner being on the ground... I don't believe it ever happened. This land was part of an estate being distributed after the death of the owner. The executor was the daughter of the deceased. I suspect that she hadn't walked on the property in many years. When I visited the tax mapping office while trying to sort things out, I found out that the previous owner of the land kept a 9 acre parcel that shares part of my northern boundary. The parcel that she kept is unimproved. I believe that when I put a fence up there will be no complaints.
It was not your responsibility to have her look at the ground. Either she or an agent for her should have checked it out. If she did not I would think that she was happy with the outcome.
As long as the pins are in the right place and you put the fence in the right place she has no reason to complain. People do, that is human nature, but, you will be in the right.
As previously discussed, with a warranty deed, the seller warrents title to the property they are selling. The fact that the size of the property is actually larger than 60 acres more or less, means even if it was 80 actual acres, you are clean. The seller can go after the surveyor, his attorney and his title company if they so desire. If you got shorted, say it was actually 50 acres, then you could do the same thing. In your case, the acerage is a gain but the boundary could be a problem if it overlaps a previously thought of boundary and there is a dispute. Fact is you do not owe the seller anything.
Quote from: grweldon on September 12, 2013, 08:30:56 AM
DGDRIS...
The taxing agency has only the legal descriptions of the property in bearing/distance format. Before I ever saw the map that the tax agency generated, I assumed that the pre-sale survey pins showed generally what the tax map eventually portrayed. I mistakenly took two of another surveyors rebar/cap markers as the pins that MY surveyor had set.
Over the last 6 years, gradually the pin locations were lost in my memory. When I went searching for them I could not find them. Seeing as I'm about to build a fence along my northern border I needed to know where the pins were. I called the surveyor in to re-identify the pins. He then uncovers the pins and I find out that they are significantly different from what I had originally assumed. What I had assumed matches the tax map (generated by the legal description, not the survey map).
The survey map (the drawing provided at closing, from a CAD file, shows a shape exactly like what I had assumed were my property lines, again, what the tax map eventually proved. The map provided by the surveyor is wrong. The geometry created by the pins on the drawing the surveyor created does not match up with the actual locations of the pins the surveyor set on the property when the pre-sale survey was done. I was ignorant of this fact because I assumed some pins from another surveyor marking other owner's property were actually pins set by MY surveyor marking MY property.
It turns out that the pins that mark other's boundaries are where my actual boundaries are when looking at the tax parcel map. There was an attorney that signed off on the closing documents. He worked for the real-estate broker that was offering the parcel on behalf of the seller. I did not have my own attorney.
NWP...
The total area of my land, what I paid for, was determined by the area calculation of the CAD file created by my surveyor. The area is incorrect because the map the surveyor created is incorrect. You may be familiar with the way many CAD systems work... you draw an enclosed shape then ask the software what the area of that shape is and it tells you. Because of this it appears that I actually own between 3 and 5 more acres than the surveyor's CAD map actually calculated. I PAID for 60.2 acres, the area the CAD file calculated from the incorrect boundaries. It appears now that I own 63-65 acres which means the actual owner got shorted by several thousand dollars for those extra acres...
Guys, I don't think I can explain it any better that this. If it doesn't make any more sense, I apologize. It's the best I can do at the moment. I'll let y'all know the results when the surveyor attempts to correct the error...
I have a better understanding, Thanks GR.
FWIW don't use that Land Surveyor again, I cannot figure out how he missed the existing corners, much less how he computed his new boundary then pinned it,
I will caveat my comment with the understanding I don't have all the info
I would still ask he move the pins he botched and prepare a corrected survey plat. When completed, if your County Clerk accepts filed maps have it filed.
P.S I think he owes you some $500.00 dollars
Best
DGDrls