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Loblolly planting at lower density

Started by TreefarmerNN, September 03, 2024, 01:04:51 PM

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TreefarmerNN

I have 52 acres that will be reforested with loblolly.  I'm in eastern VA. and the tract is very suitable for loblolly.

My local forester suggested considering a low planting density since pulp prices are bad.  He's thinking 400 trees/acre and don't thin at all.

I don't remember ever planting under 435.  I got another suggestion to plant on 14' row width by 7' spacing between trees to give 444 trees/acre. 

With good genetics, trees would be ready for thinning in our area in 16-20 years.  We only have one buyer for pulp and who knows if that plant will be operating then. 

I'd like to hear opinions on this.  I won't be planting until next fall, probably with container trees rather than bare root in order to hopefully give the trees a quicker start before cold weather.

Magicman

I planted mine in 2005 with 10' spacing on 12' rows, so about the same low density.  I now have plenty of 16"-18" dbh trees that would make chip-&-saw.  It could be thinned now, but with the SYP value in the dumper, it will never be thinned and probably harvested @ ~30 years. 
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Ianab

Here in NZ pines (Radiata) are generally planted dense initially, then thinned to waste after maybe 10 years. The pulp prices don't justify the cost of harvesting / trucking. There is a pulp market, but it's generally filled by the smaller top logs from the eventual harvest, almost a byproduct. 

Reason for the denser initial planting is that it helps the trees grow in a better form (smaller low branches) and you get canopy closure earlier that suppresses weeds. The trees are also lift pruned for the early years to produce higher grade butt logs, but unless you can get a premium for pruned logs, then it's a wasted effort (and will result in slightly less log volume). Thinning is not done to a strict layout, but to get an average density. Means if trees die or grow with poor form (multi leaders etc) then those are the ones that are taken out first, then some potential crop tress that are simply too crowded.  

But the local regime is based on producing those clear pruned butt logs that fetch the big dollars at the local mills. If they are paying the same price no matter the log grade, then a wider spacing will reduce the amount of work needed, and should produce slightly larger logs (with few more knots) 
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TreefarmerNN

Quote from: Ianab on September 03, 2024, 06:55:56 PMHere in NZ pines (Radiata) are generally planted dense initially, then thinned to waste after maybe 10 years. The pulp prices don't justify the cost of harvesting / trucking. There is a pulp market, but it's generally filled by the smaller top logs from the eventual harvest, almost a byproduct.

Reason for the denser initial planting is that it helps the trees grow in a better form (smaller low branches) and you get canopy closure earlier that suppresses weeds. The trees are also lift pruned for the early years to produce higher grade butt logs, but unless you can get a premium for pruned logs, then it's a wasted effort (and will result in slightly less log volume). Thinning is not done to a strict layout, but to get an average density. Means if trees die or grow with poor form (multi leaders etc) then those are the ones that are taken out first, then some potential crop tress that are simply too crowded. 

But the local regime is based on producing those clear pruned butt logs that fetch the big dollars at the local mills. If they are paying the same price no matter the log grade, then a wider spacing will reduce the amount of work needed, and should produce slightly larger logs (with few more knots)

I wonder how Radiata compares with our loblolly.  Loblolly self prunes to some extent although that's also driven some by competition for light.

Southside

Spoke with a friend who is in charge of several hundred thousand acres across the region. With todays self pruning genetics he plants 435 bare root, 400 container and said 350 wouldn't scare him on the right ground. 
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Ianab

Quote from: TreefarmerNN on September 03, 2024, 09:09:38 PMI wonder how Radiata compares with our loblolly.  Loblolly self prunes to some extent although that's also driven some by competition for light.
Radiata does self prune once the canopy closes over, but it tends to leave black (loose) knots in the wood as the dead branches slowly rot off. They will be small, and probably won't affect construction grading.  By pruning the suppressed lower branches off the tree heals over the branch stubs quickly, and the resulting log produces much higher grade boards (zero knots).  All the low grade wood is kept in a ~6" core of the log, all the wood laid down after that is clear and knot free. So for appearance grade wood, or even A grade plywood, the boards sawed from the log are worth more. Basically mills might currently pay around $200 / ton for pruned logs, but only ~$130 for unpruned of the same size. So a few $ spent pruning a tree pays off at harvest. 

But like I said, if you can't get a premium for the logs, it's a few $ (or hours) wasted, and your final log may actually be slightly smaller. 

Pulp is $50-60 ton, and if you allow $25 for harvest and another $25 for trucking, it's not worth the effort. If you have dragged the whole log to the landing anyway, then you may as well load that little top log, and get a couple more $ for it. But it's that ~$400 butt that really pays the bills.
 
* all in NZ dollars. 
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

customsawyer

It's difficult to predict markets in the future. Just remember they will still need diapers and cardboard boxes in 15 years. This is where a lot of pine pulp goes to. We do have lots better genetics and survival rates then we did back in the '90s. In my area we are still planting on 12' to 14 ft rows with 6-8 ft in the drill. When I first started planting it was common to plant 6x10 spacing at 726 to the acre. With the poorer trees it was common to get 10% mortality. I'm am still a fan of higher density when you plant, and thin to around 180-200 at age 15 or so, depending on the ground. It closes off the competition sooner and produces straighter logs with fewer knots in the lower logs. Keep in mind that my region is a little different than yours. Having more mills to sell to is one of the biggest advantages, and flatter ground doesn't hurt. 
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TreefarmerNN

Quote from: customsawyer on September 04, 2024, 07:13:44 AMIt's difficult to predict markets in the future. Just remember they will still need diapers and cardboard boxes in 15 years. This is where a lot of pine pulp goes to. We do have lots better genetics and survival rates then we did back in the '90s. In my area we are still planting on 12' to 14 ft rows with 6-8 ft in the drill. When I first started planting it was common to plant 6x10 spacing at 726 to the acre. With the poorer trees it was common to get 10% mortality. I'm am still a fan of higher density when you plant, and thin to around 180-200 at age 15 or so, depending on the ground. It closes off the competition sooner and produces straighter logs with fewer knots in the lower logs. Keep in mind that my region is a little different than yours. Having more mills to sell to is one of the biggest advantages, and flatter ground doesn't hurt. 

Fortunately, I've got pretty good ground.  A little roll to it but nothing serious.  What I don't have is any competition for pulp wood.  One mill is about 30 miles away, another one about 100 miles.  The second mill has all the wood it needs closer to home and doesn't source any from our area. 

The 14' row spacing, 7 in the row is close to what you are doing.  I might have to think about that more.

Ianab

At ~100 miles, a pulp wood harvest is pretty much zero value. The extra trucking eats up too much of the value. You will still get pulp grade logs (tops) from the final harvest, and as they are already on the landing anyway they should still be worth selling and trucking. 

Anyway, locally we don't plan on a pulp / thinning harvest. Go for the good saw logs, and you will end up with  bit of pulp wood anyway. but it's only a few % of the harvest value. 
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

SwampDonkey

We space closer up here because the top evergreen species are shade tolerant and can hold green limbs for 15 years, more if half the spacing. Usually 1000 to the acre is planted. If there is a lot of competition it is cleaned by 10 years with clearing saws. I've planted 60 acres, thinned it out later, now thinning the second time using it for firewood. There is no added value up here in pruning, all the same price. If you plan on sawing your own on a band mill, then pruning a section is worth it for that clear wood.
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1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ianab

Quote from: SwampDonkey on September 05, 2024, 04:18:14 AMnow thinning the second time using it for firewood.
Yeah, if you are thinning for firewood that makes sense. The denser planting promotes better form from the trees, then thin out before it gets over crowded and "stagnates". Similar to the thin to waste that's used here, but it's not worth dragging out small firewood logs any more than pulp. 
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

SwampDonkey

Yeah the ordinary Joe  around these parts does not thin a second time and don't use the species I'm burning for firewood. It's only worth it to me as firewood. Pulp market doesn't entice me to sell. Most folks up here don't even thin a second time. But there are a few of us around. The majority up here harvest every 40 years by clearcut for peanuts. That's not what I'm doing, I'm growing trees longer, many are long lived. The two main firewood species are shorter lived on my ground, fir and aspen. But I have hardwoods, spruce and cedar that are long lived. It's worth it to me because I get paid for thinning in the form of firewood. I've never froze to death yet.  ffcool
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

vratarneli7

Quote from: TreefarmerNN on September 03, 2024, 09:09:38 PM
Quote from: Ianab on September 03, 2024, 06:55:56 PMHere in NZ pines (Radiata) are generally planted dense initially, then thinned to waste after maybe 10 years. The pulp prices don't justify the cost of harvesting / trucking. There is a pulp market, but it's generally filled by the smaller top logs from the eventual harvest, almost a byproduct.

Reason for the denser initial planting is that it helps the trees grow in a better form (smaller low branches) and you get canopy closure earlier that suppresses weeds. The trees are also lift pruned for the early years to produce higher grade butt logs, but unless you can get a premium for pruned logs, then it's a wasted effort (and will result in slightly less log volume). Thinning is not done to a strict layout, but to get an average density. Means if trees die or grow with poor form (multi leaders etc) then those are the ones that are taken out first, then some potential crop tress that are simply too crowded. 

But the local regime is based on producing those clear pruned butt logs that fetch the big dollars at the local mills. If they are paying the same price no matter the log grade, then a wider spacing will reduce the amount of work needed, and should produce slightly larger logs (with few more knots)  SharpEdge

I wonder how Radiata compares with our loblolly. Eldfall Chronicles  Loblolly self prunes to some extent although that's also driven some by competition for light.
interesting comparison!

SwampDonkey

I don't know personally what high grade radiata pine is. For clear interior doors made of it that we buy here, they were about $100 each in 2018, maybe $200 now. Doesn't seem any more valuable than unpruned balsam fir. A clear Sugar maple panel door was $700. I bet $1000 now. Balsam have small knots unless growing in an open field. Good growth is 18" between whorls, I've seen as much as 3 feet. But mostly 18-20" on good soil, but spaced and nothing over topping. It will out grow local spruce as far as annual volume. As far as height growth about par with spruce on same soil. But rings are wider. Spruce will grow way taller in the end and live a lot longer.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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