Maple sap runs down from the crown in the spring????? Really????

[Southside]

Anybody else catch the article from the University professor in Vermont who did a big tax-payer paid for study to "discover" that maple sap runs up from the root ball in the spring and not down from the crown as he though???  He claims this revelation will fundamentally change the maple syrup industry as now maples can be grown in plantations like pine, cut the crowns off and "suck" the sap out of the top in the spring.  Even without any sort of fancy college degree something tells me that won't work for too long.  Maybe this same guy has been taping pines and making the sap into syrup for his pancakes in the morning.  Amazing what "higher education" comes up with. 

[petefrom bearswamp]

Ouch,
Makes me wonder how sap can ooze from the fresh cut stump.

[Magicman]

Ouch is right.  I guess that it matters not how stupid that you might be as long as you are getting paid.  Not.

[celliott]

Full article here- http://www.uvm.edu/~uvmpr/?Page=news&storyID=17209


Why the negative attitude? Do you pay taxes in Vermont and feel your money is being wasted? I actually didn't see a mention of the study being taxpayer paid, although UVM is a state college.

It has always been thought that for good maple sap production you needed mature sugar maples, with large crowns (lots of space for the tree to grow) Do you want to wait 80 years to grow a 16" sugar maple? Conventional guidelines suggest tapping a tree at a minimum of 10" DBH for one tap, 18" to 24" for two taps, and 25" +, no more than 3 taps, although these guidelines often change and are subject to personal preference. My point being, you can get into a productive, money making sugarbush with this new idea of tapping saplings in a much shorter time period. Tree density per acre is also a factor- Want to pay taxes on 200 acres of land for about 2,000 taps in mature trees, or much less land, with saplings and equivalent production?

Will it change the industry? Maybe. This idea could turn maple production into more of an agricultural farming practice, more controllable against disease, fertilization, planting of "super sweet" saplings (extra high sugar content), many possibilities.
Did plastic tubing change the industry? High vacuum pumps? RO machines? All are now standards in the industry on the larger scale.

This same professor, Dr. Perkins, invented a new style of tap, with a check valve in it. These taps are used in vacuum operations, and only allow sap to flow out of the tree, preventing it from going back into the tree, keeping tap holes cleaner, and allowing for a longer sap run (more sap = more syrup) and healthier trees.
Some people use these taps exclusively and love them, some don't use them and won't.

It's just an idea, it might work well it might not, who knows?
I personally think it has potential to be a game changer in the maple industry. Someone like myself, who doesn't own any land and can't really afford to go in deep and buy a couple hundred acres to start up, can have a productive operation on much less land.

[beenthere]

Very interesting, that they can vacuum the sap out of a small sapling like that. After just a few years growth, has the potential for planting maple in plantations and rotate the plantings every 7-10 years.

Thanks for the full article. Helps set the story straight.

Begs the question, if pulling 'water' from the ground like the article indicates, does the quality of the sugar concentration change?

Also, did they cut off the sapling and see how much sap they could vacuum suck out of the tree top?

[LeeB]

I too find it interesting. I know nothing of maple syrup making and don't care for it myself, but it goes to show you that the saying even a blind hog can find an acorn is true. They didn't know that sap flows up and not down, yet have stumbled onto something that may indeed be huge. I have heard that hickories can also be tapped, although the sugar is much lower and it takes more sap. I have tons of hickory saplings. May be a new way to look at what many of you refer to as  wood.

[Holmes]

 I guess you can say science at its best. They are advancing the science of syrup production.

[Birchwood Logging]

Dose tapping a maple tree effect the quality of the wood in the tree the reason I ask a while back I logged a smaller track of timber that had a maple patch on it very thick that covers about 4 acres. They were nice big trees but when I started cutting them they all had large hearts they had been tapped 40 to 50 years ago would that cause them to have large hearts 

[celliott]

Dose tapping a maple tree effect the quality of the wood in the tree the reason I ask a while back I logged a smaller track of timber that had a maple patch on it very thick that covers about 4 acres. They were nice big trees but when I started cutting them they all had large hearts they had been tapped 40 to 50 years ago would that cause them to have large hearts

I don't know if tapping affects the heartwood of a tree. When you tap, you only want to tap into the sapwood, not the heartwood. Trees tapped awhile ago, I don't know if that is the reason for a large heart or not.
It does create a defect in the tree (from a lumber standpoint) there is a hole, and staining above and below the tapholes.
I have seen some taphole maple lumber, if you can market it then good!

[CJennings]

I find the idea fascinating. I'm on the lookout for a little land to buy soon, and can't afford much. If I can get good syrup production out of a small parcel this way, it could be quite helpful. People don't give away good sugarbush land in Vermont. Those big maples take some time to grow.

It might not be obvious, but I love maple syrup.  ;D

[woodandtractors]

Regarding damage caused by tapping--about 8 or 9 years ago a local logger sent in over 40,000 bd. ft. of the nicest rock maple we (Ireland Lumber Co.)ever bought. All butts were trimmed off at 8 feet or so to eliminate the tap holes and stray sap spiles-these I bought cheap for firewood. Very small hearted logs,many over 30" diameter. Lots of beautiful lumber!
Mike

[Cedar Savage]

Wonder what would happen if'n ya hooked that vacuum on the end of a branch cut off at 2" on a large tree ?...What about several vacuums on the end of several branches ?

[Southside]

Chad,

Indirectly I do pay taxes to Vermont through my federal taxes, of which the state of Vermont gets a lot of its funding from.  If Dr Perkins can do some good for the industry, then I am all in support of it, however, it is basic agronomy that plants use their leaves as solar collectors to generate sugars they store in their roots, from grasses to trees, its all the same, so how it is a university professor does not know this?  That is the point that bothers me the most.  Also, I suspect that by mining these young trees as the study suggests, both the quality and quantity of sap/sugar would quickly deteriorate and the trees would die, sort of like a hay field that is cut each and every year with nothing being put back on the soil, before long the yield drops, the grasses die off, and the weeds move in.  Soil and plants are no different than a bank account, if you take more than you put in the game ends. 

I guess this got to me as I have seen this disconnect between the University systems and producers many times in the past.  Locally there is a land grant University that has input over $5000 per acre, on over 200 acres, not including the purchase of the land as it was given to them, to develop grazing methods to help farmers, and they have never had a critter eat a blade of grass.  Nobody who actually has to pay their own bills can use the information that has been gathered from this study, it is just not economically feasible.  We just can't afford the waste any longer is my whole point.

[coxy]

Chad,

Indirectly I do pay taxes to Vermont through my federal taxes, of which the state of Vermont gets a lot of its funding from.  If Dr Perkins can do some good for the industry, then I am all in support of it, however, it is basic agronomy that plants use their leaves as solar collectors to generate sugars they store in their roots, from grasses to trees, its all the same, so how it is a university professor does not know this?  That is the point that bothers me the most.  Also, I suspect that by mining these young trees as the study suggests, both the quality and quantity of sap/sugar would quickly deteriorate and the trees would die, sort of like a hay field that is cut each and every year with nothing being put back on the soil, before long the yield drops, the grasses die off, and the weeds move in.  Soil and plants are no different than a bank account, if you take more than you put in the game ends. 

I guess this got to me as I have seen this disconnect between the University systems and producers many times in the past.  Locally there is a land grant University that has input over $5000 per acre, on over 200 acres, not including the purchase of the land as it was given to them, to develop grazing methods to help farmers, and they have never had a critter eat a blade of grass.  Nobody who actually has to pay their own bills can use the information that has been gathered from this study, it is just not economically feasible.  We just can't afford the waste any longer is my whole point.

I don't live in Vermont but have to say this to ya southside logger smiley_clapping smiley_clapping smiley_clapping its sad they cant sell the hay to some one that had a hard year and at least get the fuel money back

[beenthere]

Southside logger
I don't think the VT Prof is oblivious to the fact that the tree will die after they cut off the top and suck out the sap. After that point, it is just like a corn field that has been picked.
Next step is to plant more trees for the cycle (rotation) to repeat. Maybe the maple roots will sprout some more saplings, but not sure of that.

[nas]

actually, Dr Perkins is a very highly respected scientist in the maple industry.  I don't see anywhere in the article stating that he thought sap ran down from the crown.  I am going to send him this thread and see what he has to say in response to southside logger.

Nick

[Southside]

Nick,

Here is the article I read.  http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/01/23/new-discovery-about-maple-trees-could-change-syrup-industry/

Second paragraph below the photo is where it says "Based on the observation that one of the mature trees in the study that was missing most of its top was still yielding high volumes of sap, they hypothesized that the maples were possibly drawing moisture from the soil and not the crown. Previously, they had presumed that the sap dripping from tap holes was coming from the upper portion of the tree. But, if the tree was missing most of its crown then, they surmised, it must be drawing moisture from the roots."

[Mark Wentzell]

Definitely a neat idea, although I can't imagine any sugar bush owners would want to level their trees to start using this system but it would work well for establishing new operations.

I'd think keeping the deer away from all those maple saplings would be a real problem.

[Ed_K]

 Sap comes from the roots in the morning as the tree warms,and comes from the crown as the tree cools in the evening.The idea of plantation trees is to have a heavy basal count and after growing for 7 to 8 yrs they would cut 1/7 of the trees for production and plant new trees each yr for a never ending supply off the one acre.
I believe I read that the International maple federation paid for the research project.

[nas]

Here is Dr. Perkins response(BTW I only have his email because of communication with him about another subject.  I don't know him personally but respect his work because I am a maple syrup producer).

"Unfortunately it appears the forum contributors are mistaken in some
fundamental aspects of maple tree physiology.  This is a great example of
when the obvious is NOT what is actually going on. 

In the normal situation, maple trees in spring have a fairly unique
phenomenon which generates stem pressures.  These pressures serve to refill
embolized vessels and reestablish a complete hydraulic system to move water
through the tree.  Different trees do it different ways.  During the FREEZE
phase, contraction of gas bubbles in the lumen of wood cells (maples have
gas-filled lumen spaces, most plants have water-filled lumen) and a rapid
drop in vapor pressure due to the freezing transition draws water UP through
the roots into the stem and up into the branches, where it freezes.  However
we do NOT collect the sap from maple trees during the freeze cycle....this
is not possible.  Instead we collect sap during the THAW phase, when the
frozen sap in the branches and stem melts, which creates a head pressure
(basically due to gravitational potential) and the sap will run out anywhere
there is a wound.....in this case, from a taphole.  The sap will stop
running when the vessel elements empty and the head pressure reaches near
zero.  Thus during the normal collection phase of maple sap exudation, bulk
sap movement is DOWN, with perhaps a very slight lateral movement component
(minimal due to the strong vertical wood structure).

With a good vacuum, we can pull water UP through the stem (opposite of the
normal situation during maple sap collection).  With small stems, it is
basically akin to a sugar-filled straw stuck in the ground.  As long as the
stem is thawed, we can pull water through it, where it mixes with sugars to
produce sweet sap.  Eventually (a week or more) the sap will become too
dilute.  Another freeze will however stimulate the conversion of starch
stored in the stem into sugar, and we can collect sap again.  If you cut the
top off a sapling you would find a little oozing, but you would not get much
of any sap to flow from the wound...at least in maples.  In some other
species, birches, walnuts, you would find more.  This is because they have a
different strategy to refill embolized vessels which relies upon root
pressures.  Maples do NOT generate any substantial amount of root pressure,
and thus sap will not flow up out of a cut stem.

Does cutting the top off kill the saplings.....no, not if they're growing in
the open with good sun.  Maple saplings growing in the open have a very
strong capacity to regrow the crown.  Red maples especially will stump
sprout, but sugar maples will do the same when they are juveniles.  Since no
energy is needed to grow the root system, since it is already large enough,
all the energy the plant has remaining in the stem (and there is plenty) can
go into reforming the crown.  Better yet, since the stem is now smaller, all
the sugar produced by the regenerated crown has a limited space to move to
for storage....it can only be stored in the (now smaller) stem, where we can
best collect it.

The study in which we found this was aimed at improving our understanding of
how sap flows in trees, with the applied goal of improving sap yields from
mature trees with vacuum systems, and was funded by the USDA under the
Vermont Agricultural Experiment Station.  However it did not lead to an
obvious conclusion, as sap movement during collection for maple production
does NOT occur when sap is moving up....rather it is just the opposite
situation.  I have no problem with the forum users criticizing this work,
however I feel it is largely a matter of their not fully understanding how
the system works, and why it is so entirely different from normal maple sap
collection in a variety of ways.

This method has several obvious advantages, but that is another conversation
entirely.

Timothy D. Perkins, Ph.D. - Research Professor & Director
University of Vermont Proctor Maple Research Center"

[celliott]

It might not be obvious, but I love maple syrup.  ;D

ME TOO  ;D

And NAS, thanks alot!  smiley_clapping
Dr. Perkins is a very smart man, definitely knows his stuff.

[timberlinetree]

Only time will tell if this is a waste of time and money or truly change the maple sugar industry. I'm hoping  that the longhorn beetle doesn't show up and rain on the parade.

[Woodboogah]

http://modernfarmer.com/2014/01/maple-syrup-revolution/    Here is the one I read.  As a small scale producer (about 250-300 taps) I think all this is going to do is turn maple syrup into another row crop.  I find what has been discovered pretty neat.   Time will tell.

[Ed_K]

 My idea of sap flow stands corrected. Maple milk is the best.

[petefrom bearswamp]

Ed_K, Mine too.
back in the late 70's I ran a 1300 tap operation 2 different bushes, one on my property with 650 taps all tubing, natural vacuum and piped to the sap house., the other one tubing also but had to truck the sap about 1/1/2 miles.
Just me and 1 part time helper.
Loved it, but a divorce forced me to sell the property. :'(
When I was practicing consulting forestry, I allowed 5 feet or so off of tapped trees due to the possibility of spiles being left in the trees and also degrade of the lumber.

[TessiersFarm]

I am a maple producer and a farmer, I found the article interesting, however question the long term sustainability of it.  I think it would be expensive and time consuming to have to re-plant acres of maples every year.  I don't see how row crop practices can be successfully used in tree production, different root structures, different growing patterns and seeding concerns.  Maybe I'm not seeing the whole picture.  I think the current commercial agricultural practices are destructive and not sustainable, so I guess I am a little biased.  I find it hard to argue with hundreds years of maple history, compared to a research paper.  The maple syrup produced should more than offset the down grading of one 8' log on a tree, in my opinion.

[Ianab]

You will see in the reply Nas posted, they aren't killing the sapling when they harvest. In effect it's "Coppicing", which is traditional harvesting method. Basically you cut the tree, leaving the stump, and let it regrow from the stump. Because the regrowth is from a complete root system it's much faster then a new sapling would normally grow, so in a few years you are ready to harvest again.

I don't know if this method is going to to be practical, but until someone studies it, and does some practical experiments, who knows?

Lots of ideas seemed crazy, until someone tried them and they worked.  ;)

Ian

[beenthere]

Seems those with an investment in a vacuum system, that it certainly would be worth a try. Sounds like there was extra flow of sap from the saplings, and that may equate to some big volumes per acre compared to tapping older, mature trees.

I find it hard to argue with hundreds years of maple history, compared to a research paper.

What wasn't available during most of this history was the vacuum system for extracting sap. Sounds like from the research, that this experiment opened up some new possibilities. Of course, time will tell and it may upset the conventional methods known to the industry.

[TessiersFarm]

You will see in the reply Nas posted, they aren't killing the sapling when they harvest. In effect it's "Coppicing", which is traditional harvesting method. Basically you cut the tree, leaving the stump, and let it regrow from the stump. Because the regrowth is from a complete root system it's much faster then a new sapling would normally grow, so in a few years you are ready to harvest again.

I don't know if this method is going to to be practical, but until someone studies it, and does some practical experiments, who knows?

Lots of ideas seemed crazy, until someone tried them and they worked.  ;)

Ian

I am certainly no tree expert but I didn't know maple would re-grow from a stump.  I know some trees do but I always thought they were suckers and would never amount to much of a tree.  Never really paid a lot of attention to be honest with you. 

Also I hear you about most new ideas sounding crazy at first.  I can hear the first cave men talking now. 

"A round block ain't gonna work man"

"Its Gotta, round rocks roll better than flat ones"

"yeah but how in hell you gonna stop?"

"just hold my beer and watch this"


It did sound like a far higher yield, I wonder about the sugar content without the canopy?  I will definitely be interested in seeing it tried on a commercial scale.

[BuckeyeAaron]

I don't know much about sugar production and I have only tapped a couple of maples form a personal hobby standpoint.  But that said, the prospect of purposefully topping sapling sized maples doesn't seem sustainable or terribly efficient - unless the yields truly are 10x greater as the article claims.  I would  think this system, if it were to be adopted and professionally implemented, may have more attraction to adventurous, established producers that may want to pollard their mature trees to increase production.  But I'm sure logistically that would be feasible as you're dealing with mature canopies and not a stick at chest height. 

[mapleman205]

I'm new to the forestry forum but I am a maple producer with 3000 of my own taps and I manage another 4500 taps. This new method is not meant to replace the current production methods but to supplement or to possibly help a bush that has been destroyed from ice storms or wind damage. If the Asian longhorn beetle does in fact invade the maple belt then this may be the only feasible method because the beetles tend to attack mature trees leaving young saplings unharmed. As for the killing of the saplings young maples have a unique ability to push out epicormic buds out of the bark below the cut area. Currently there are no commercial methods available to harvest sap from these saplings so the equitment must be homemade. The overall yield is much lower per tap but the number of taps per acre is greatly increased.