I have a new spring project coming up and would like some advise. I will be adding a 13 x 16 screened porch to our cabin and would like an open ceiling. My thoughts were to have a 6 x 12 x 16 foot long beam at the ridge. Would it be better to cut one solid beam, or cut four 2 x 12 x 16's and nail them together? The other question is can I put either of these up green? I was thinking if it were a solid beam, I would center the heart, and also cut the 6/12 pitch on the top side. If I did the four 2 x 12's I would still cut the 6/12 after I nailed them. One more question, would a solid beam free of heart be better than one centered? I think I have some red pine large enough to make one free of heart.
Here is a Sketchup of what I intend to build, any other problems with what I have in mind, feel free to make suggestions. I'm not a carpenter, so any suggestions are welcome
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10927/image%7E5.jpg)
Free of Heart Center would have fewer splits when it dried but might warp if cut too close to the pith. My biggest concern would be lifting this beam (it will be very heavy).
If you cut a single piece beam, it will take years to dry, I would put it up green. I don't see much benefit to a laminated beam unless you want to dry the wood before installation or lift it one piece at a time.
That beam would look good up there. You said open ceiling? so it would be seen. If going that size what about 3 inch rafters too? Just for looks. I went with 2x8 across a Women Cave. Really looks good. But no sense in killing yourself either.
You may not be a carpenter, but it seems you have mastered the use of Sketchup. Good job. I would be concerned with cracks and warping as it dries. Post some photos during the construction.
DW, cut the beam a little oversized then go over it with an adz to make it look hand hewn. Its a nice effect and you won't have to worry about drying cracks, its a cabin. Frank C.
Thanks for the quick replies. Den-Den, I did a quick calculation using the forums toolbox, if I figured correctly it will weigh in the neighborhood of 350 pounds. Not sure at this point how it would be lifted, but seems at least possible. Will any cracks that occur be of concern? Or will they be cosmetic, totally acceptable if so.
Cfarm, I intended to use 1 x 6 t&g on the ceiling inside as the roof deck will be OSB and don't want to be looking at that. But if I used the 1 x 6 for the roof deck the open rafter concept could look good.
Sixacresand, master of Sketchup, no way, it took me almost a 40 hour week to build the model in Sketchup. I really think I could have framed the walls and roof in less time. I stuck with it as I really didn't have anything else going on, and I figured I would have a much better concept of how I was going to do the actual construction if I worked it out in my head and on Sketchup first.
bandmiller, is there another tool other than an adz that will give the same results? Don't have one in my arsenal of tools, and the budget is going to be tight. No room for new toys, but I like the idea.
As far as the solid beam vs (3) 2"x12'x16's depends upon if it will be visible inside the house. Aesthetically, I would go for the solid beam hands down. If you are looking for the easiest cheapest way to get a ridge beam up there, the 3 individual pieces are without a doubt going to save your back and wallet. I am building myself a dovetail timber frame, and what your dilemma is, will be mine exactly when I start setting my house. My plans call for 3- 6"X12"x16' ridge beams, that rest on top of 6x6's on the second story to span the length of my house. I have yet to decide on a piece of equipment to set them....a lull......boom truck.....who knows :D
If the beam is going to be a feature in your project, you could notch the truss timbers on top of beam and still have your ridge and fill between with blocking it would make the beam appear even bigger. Also it would give you place to run some wire for lights or ceiling fan. Timberline.com has carving wheels for 4" grinders the can give a beam a nice hewed look.
DW, If your handy mayby pick up a cheap grub hoe at a flea market or yard sale shape and sharpen the flat side. Frank C.
I have an old pick axe, that I could get a sharp edge on, but I don't have a way to make it curved. I will start asking around, maybe I can come across one, as the hand hewn finish would look good.
Now for another question, If I use 6x6 posts, how does the 6x12 beam get connected together? Doesn't seem right to just toenail them together. Redbeard, I'm not sure I follow your comments, but I do want a ceiling fan on the beam, can you elaborate, or provide a sketch so I can understand what it is your telling me?
The blocking between rests on top of beam on each side with the 6/12 angle.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22539/rps20140220_200745_584.jpg)
Thanks for the drawing, now all I have to do is think it through to see if it is something that works for my application.
Les, I used some large Red Pine beams in the roof of our house, I can't get too specific right now, I should be sleeping. I have a shed outside with a large ridge beam too, it's still all open underneath so a guy can see how the rafters are connected etc. I'd say you're better off with a centered heart beam, they will check but its aesthetic. I have an adze and I did one of our beams with an adzed finish, after that I decided I prefered the band sawn finish ;D I can show you how to get the bugger up too, I guess what I'm saying is you will have to come down to my place one of days ;)
On the timber frame homes that I have milled out the specs were for anything under 10" in width to be free of hart center.
You may have valid reasons for your design choice and my observations are not intended to try to change your plan in any way, they are merely suggestions. Is their a special reason why the ridge is not in the center of the room ? Generally speaking symmetrically looking faces of a building are more pleasing to the eye. The 3D you show distorts the fact that the ridge is not in the center. Looking up from within the room you have a long low rafter on a short wall on one side and a short high rafter on a high wall on the other, again this puts things out of relationship as a ceiling fan hanging from the ridge will be off center in the room. As you show the framing the windows are not evenly spaced on the end wall, again not pleasing to the eye. My final question is why 13' a 12' or 14' width would make better use of building materials. I would evenly space the end wall windows. Double up the jack studs on the center window and center the ridge over the center window and make the walls the same height. I would also consider putting collar ties every 4' to keep the walls from splaying out.
I wondered how long it would take for someone to mention that the beam is not centered. I have a unique situation in that our original cabin was built in 1953 when there were no restrictions on how far a structure had to be from the high water mark on the lake. We are grandfathers in, but as the front of the cabin is 47 feet from the water, we are restricted to a 50 foot minimum. I spoke to our County Enviromental Services personnel a year ago, and in no uncertain terms they said any addition had to meet the 50 foot minimum distance. Not one inch closer! And they will come to measure. That is why the front of the addition is offset 3 feet from the front of the cabin.
We are also restricted on the total square footage to twice the original footprint. We had already added a bathroom addition two years ago, so the size and location of the screened porch was limited by the County. Believe me, I would have loved to have just added on to the length of the original building. As previously stated, I am not a carpenter and it would have been a lot easier for me. I am seeking the advice of a professional contractor for my final plans before any construction begins. I am trying to make the best lemonade possible with the conditions given. Hope this explains my design decisions.
Without running numbers, which is a bad thing most of the time, I would follow the advice from the previous posts, saw it full width, and profile it as desired for appeal. The span and slope should maintain snow load requirements and give you a spectacular room. david
Tempe, I would disagree about using collar ties. With a correctly sized structural ridge they are unnecessary, the walls will only splay if the ridge sags.
... unless he attaches the rafters as shown in the original sketchup drawing. If the rafters are able to shift downward (even a little) over time, they will push the walls out. That's why rafters usually have a birds-mouth cut into them, as shown on Redbeard's sketch.
The new building codes want metal ridge board ties of some sort . That keeps the roof from lifting or rafters from drooping do to wind and or snow loads..
DeepWoods
Since I was the one to point out the off center ridge beam in the room, let me apologize. Yes , we find govt. intervention makes us change what would be a straight forward approach to meet some seemingly arbitrary rule. So we take to finding the best solution possible. From your response I presume that you want to keep the original ridge line and slope of the roof from the existing structure and extend it over the new porch. Thus the offset ridge, am I correct ? Other structural things to look out for are tying back into the existing roof and the long overhang on the left side of the porch needs bracing of some sort, the weight of the roof alone will cause it to sag over time. You may already have plans to support it that are not shown and if you decide to use T&G pine on the top of the rafters, remember to account for that so the roof build up surfaces match up to the existing roof. The ridge beam as others have said needs to be looked at structurally. I still may be way off base so please take my comments/ suggestions in a positive light, I truly mean no disrespect to you or others reading this forum. Remle
Remle, first, no apologies nesseccary. I took your comments as someone trying to help. And that is what I was asking for. Also, my reply was not intended to be condescending towards you, so if that is how it came across to you, I apologize. You are correct with your other observations with regards to the roof line. Yes, I am concerned with the amount of overhang on the high wall side. How much overhang, without additional support is exceptable with 2x4 rafters? I wanted to go 24 inches to help keep rain out of the porch. I had already realized the problem with the roof deck materials. The existing roof is 3/4 shiplap, and with the planned 7/16 OSB, I will have to plan accordingly. A lot of the details are missing from my Sketchup drawing, and even more left out in my comments, so I can see how one would not necessarily know what I had in mind.
I have been working further on my Sketchup, and as soon as I can upload the pictures, I will post them for review. To all those that have had comments and suggestions, Thank You.
Running a few ties to connect the opposite rafters will really up the strength of the whole roof. ;D
So here are my latest ideas for review. I took the idea from a neighbor on the lake that has a similar beam detail as shown. They will be 6x6 to match the main beam. I will also use the Simpson Tie on the rafter to main beam connection. The cross beams will be connected with the black tees as shown. I can make them from some 4 inch wide flat stock, and weld the tees together. Then lag them into the beams
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10927/image%7E6.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10927/image%7E7.jpg)
I like it. Way stronger.
We got our tie plates cut out from one sheet of 1/4" plate. Worked really well and sharp when bolted up. We used 3/4" square head black bolts.
Solid plate cut into a tee is what I would like as well. Don't have a plasma cutter or a torch, but I do have a welder. Figured after welding, grinding, and sandblasting to even out the finish, I would paint them dark bronze. Hopefully they will look like a solid tee when finished. Do like the idea of square head bolts. Something else comes to mind, will a green timber take stain?
I would think so in a couple of weeks after they are up.
If it is a soft wood beat it with different sizes of chain randomly
So I have another question that I need advise on. If I use a 6x6 cross beam as shown in my last Sketchup drawing, I need at least an 8 1/2 inch diameter log at the small end per, the tool box calculator, to get my 6 inch beam. Is it better to choose a tree that is just large enough to get one beam per log by just taking the slabs off. Or do I select a larger tree that I can get some side lumber out of the log to get to my beam size? Which option gives me the better, stronger, beam? I have plenty of either size available to get nice straight Red Pine to choose from.
My experience is mostly with hardwoods, so take it for what it is worth. Most of the logs I get if I try to use a minimum log to get a piece, usually I don't get the piece. Better to have a bit bigger log to allow for curvature, bends, crooks pocket rot and so on. It doesn't hurt to have extra length either, especially if you don't have extra logs to spare or to convert to other lumber.
Quote from: DeepWoods on February 20, 2014, 10:31:54 PM
I have an old pick axe, that I could get a sharp edge on, but I don't have a way to make it curved. I will start asking around, maybe I can come across one, as the hand hewn finish would look good.
Now for another question, If I use 6x6 posts, how does the 6x12 beam get connected together? Doesn't seem right to just toenail them together. Redbeard, I'm not sure I follow your comments, but I do want a ceiling fan on the beam, can you elaborate, or provide a sketch so I can understand what it is your telling me?
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You will be show casing your post and beam construction. Why not have some plate steel gussets made up. Paint them wrought iron black ad use them to lag outside the joining places. Alternatively. drill and angle lag screw or connect drill and pin with rebar.
Did you say what type of wood you would be using for these beams? You may need an architect or engineer to approve of this method. Check with your building inspector first.
bs5
The county Deepwoods and I both reside in is not subject to building codes, there is no building inspector. The only inspections my home required was for the septic system and the electrical. Les unless you want some live edge I would go with a bigger log, around 10 inches.
I'm hoping to get started on the construction as soon as the temperatures allow. When I do, I plan on posting the build on the General Topics forum for all to follow.
Since this will be an open screened structure, and rain and snow will be blown in, is there a need to use pressure treated lumber? I will finish the interior with pine, but that may be a while. The exterior will match the existing half log siding that is on the current cabin. Just wondering if the added expense would be justified.
I hate sawing 6x6's. The best size for a heart-centered post is 9" (which gives you a bit of allowance for irregularities). Problem is, with Douglas-Fir the small diameter tops have plenty of knots that make for a weaker, lower grade post. If I go for FOHC (Free of Heart Centre) than I'm looking at a 16" to 18" top with plenty of side lumber >:(.
What I usually do is use a 12" log and saw a 6x6 out of the center, with 4 6x6's around the sides. That's assuming I have orders for full dimension 6x6's.
I need one of your log stretchers. ;D 8) 8)
Finally time to update this post. I stick framed the walls of the screen porch a couple weeks ago and made time yesterday and today cutting the posts and beams for the roof. I took the easy way out as there were two nice red pine within a 100 feet of the mill that were straight and large enough to get the 6x12 main beam, and another smaller red pine for the posts and cross ties. Time for some pictures.
Here is the butt log ready to winch onto the mill, 18 feet long, 21 inches at the swell, 17 inches on the small end. Checked the toolbox calculator, and it's estimated weight is 1924 pounds. I was surprised it rolled up the ramps with no problems.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10927/image%7E8.jpg)
Here it is already to start cutting it down to size.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10927/image%7E10.jpg)
I decided to pin a piece of cardboard to the end so I wouldn't lose track of the finished beam size. I did it to both end to make sure I kept the pith centered.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10927/image%7E9.jpg)
Here is my neighbor, Dean taking the bark off. Even though the trees were close to the mill, we had to drag them through sand to get them to the mill.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10927/image%7E14.jpg)
I took both of us with cant hooks to turn after slabbing and taking off a couple of nice 1 inch boards.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10927/image%7E12.jpg)
By now we have removed several hundred pounds of slabs and 1 inch side lumber. Still takes both of us to turn this beast.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10927/image%7E15.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10927/image%7E16.jpg)
Here we are cut to final dimensions, and cutting the 6/12 pitch on the top of the beam. I was worried about how I was going to cut the angle, but figured I would start out trying it the simplest way possible with just tipping it with wedges. It worked well, after figuring out how to clamp it. I did have to pick it up with my skid steer and turn it end for end to make the cut on the second angle.
It is now down to 378 pounds, and all I have to do now is figure out how I'm going to get it to the top of the posts.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10927/image%7E17.jpg)
Nice work Les! Man, you must have some patience to get that all lined up to cut your roof pitch on the mill :o I built a "stiff leg derrick" out of 2x6's, and a chain hoist, to lift my beams into place. It worked pretty well.
Looking forward to seeing that where it belongs!
very nice beam!
Most of the time I tend to over think things, so cutting the roof pitch on top of the beam normally would have been an hour or two trying to decide what would be the right way to do it. But because I really didn't have a clue, and it didn't seem like it should be all that hard, the wedge idea came to me first. So I tried it and it worked great. K.I.S.S. works!
This is the framing that we did a couple weeks ago.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10927/image%7E21.jpg)
Looks to be a nice addition to an already beautiful home. Plan to go with the same style siding?
KISS is a very good concept, and the addition looks great!
Yes, to the same style and color siding. We will run short from the original order, but will most likely need to order enough for the gable end peak.
So last Saturday a friend on the lake came over to let me know that he had volunteered himself and four other guys that had come up for a few days of fishing, to help raise the beam. So yesterday after lunch, his guys, and two other resident friends of mine, and myself got together to put the beam in place. It turned out to be one of the easiest ten minute jobs I have done in some time. It really was just a matter of picking it up and raising it up onto the posts. Eight men and eight minutes later and it was done without breaking a sweat. Let's just say I was one happy guy! 8) 8) 8)
I posted the video on YouTube to watch, for those interested.
http://youtu.be/x-Qcqmt5uKA
Good job, well done. Can't beat a bunch of guys on a fishing trip to make a work project very "short" so's to get back to fishing. :)
Hope there was enough room below the beam to remove the scaffolding. ;)
Thanks for sharing, looks like you all had a good time with great results, nice planning if I say so myself.
Great. I can see what has caused all that grey hair now. bg
Of course we are interested. Many hands make light work.
One of my friends and me put up green hemlock rafters on the women cave. 2"X8"X12', He ain't been over much since that workout. :D
Looks like a great project. Thanks for posting. Nice to see a bunch of good guys come give you a hand. Not enough good guys around anymore!
Today the cross ties and pillars were put up. Still need to bolt the tee plates on the joints, but that can wait for a rainy day. Hopefully the roof deck will be put on tomorrow.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10927/image%7E22.jpg)
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Progress is great to see. smiley_thumbsup
Well I have been working hard since my last post. Our screened porch is all but completed, at least from the outside. I want to thank all of you that contributed, and commented on all the questions I had, and posted on the forum. As I stated earlier, I am not a carpenter. But after all the help from this forum, I can say I have accomplished what I set out to do. Because my original post had to do with cutting a beam, I won't post all the pictures of all of the different aspects of the build. But here are a couple pictures of the almost completed porch that you helped me build.
Here are the cross ties and main beam in place and connected together with the tee braces that I made.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10927/image%7E29.jpg)
This is the view from the road, I need to do some reseeding of the grass, but wanted to wait until I was all done with construction so it had a better chance to grow back.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10927/image%7E26.jpg)
And here is the end view.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10927/image%7E28.jpg)
And finally a couple pictures taken from the lake
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10927/image%7E27.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10927/image%7E30.jpg)
I will be cutting the 1x6 t&g starting in a few weeks, the wild blueberries are ready to pick, so hopefully by this time next year, the inside will be completed. Maybe by then, I can call myself a carpenter.
I love an "add on" that does not look added on. Yours is very nice indeed and thanks for the picture update. smiley_thumbsup
That came out looking mighty nice.
Very, very nice work for someone that "is not a carpenter" ;) I hear the blueberries are thick up in your country this year, I wish I had time to sneak up there.
Very nice you did a great job.
Deepwoods,
I've been doing carpentry work for 40 years.You sure you aren't sand bagging on us?That is some very nice work.I really appreciate someone who keeps a clean and orderly work site.The help stays safe and the job comes together the way it is supposed too.Please don't post any pictures when you do become a carpenter,some of us would sell our tools and just fish or pick blueberries.
Best to you and your friends,
Mick
I did 30 years of fixing stuff at the Target Stores in Minnesota. I did pick up a few carpentry skills, but no way would I or any skilled carpenter call me one. I get by, but it takes me a lot longer to figure things out when it comes to building things. If you notice, I don't include any close up shots of my work. There are plenty mistakes that don't show in the pictures I post. And getting to the final details take me a long time. In fact in my previous house, it took me till the day we moved out to finally put the last piece of base moulding in. I tend to procrastinate. Anyway, thanks for all the compliments. The mosquitoes have been thick this year, and Mrs. DeepWoods and I can now enjoy a bug free porch. 8)
Well I thought I might give an update to an old post of mine. It has been about 2 1/2 years ago when I finished the exterior of our screen porch. Well over this past winter I was busy in my shop turning a pile of 1x6x10' red pine into T&G for the ceiling. I didn't keep track, but I'm guessing I may have as much as two hours invested in each board from log to final installation. Each board has two coats of clear poly on them before installing so I didn't have to do all that finishing work above my head on scaffolding. I hadn't planed on Denim pine, but somewhere along the way, I must have had some drying issues. The only problem is I didn't have enough to do the entire porch, and I think the boards that I cut last fall, to complete this project, may dry without any blue in them. Oh well. So hopefully by this time next year I can update this post again to show a completed porch
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10927/image~2.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1491081772)
looking good, 8)
Very nice!
Love the project. Thanks for all the good advice!