The (Lucas Mill) Adventure Begins...

[Jim_Rogers]

I just went to radio shack and bought one off the shelf. Metal detector that is. The one I got has a switch on it to eliminate "trash metal". I leave that switch off, so that it picks up all trash metal and it has work for me for years.

I think I paid something like $129 or $149 for it.
I charge back the logger for blade damage if I hit metal in his logs.
I charge back the customer if I hit metal in his logs.

I charge the customer to scan his logs. These fees have paid for this metal detector many times, I would think.

If you're sawing your own logs then you still need one and scan all the butt logs.

Jim Rogers

[thecfarm]

John,you are having no luck at all.   :(  The only metal I hit is on the mill.  : Nice job on the sink.

[GDinMaine]

That is quite a drag that you happened to find another sheetrock screw with the mill.  They are among the toughest ones to saw.  Does the second blade have to re-tipped too?

[JohnM]

Does the second blade have to re-tipped too?

This screw got all five tips. :(  From what I understand it's an all or nothing thing anyway.  If you replace one tip you have to replace them all, which makes sense, you can't have different tips at different wear points on the same blade. (I think... ???)

JM

[sigidi]

Does the second blade have to re-tipped too?

This screw got all five tips. :(  From what I understand it's an all or nothing thing anyway.  If you replace one tip you have to replace them all, which makes sense, you can't have different tips at different wear points on the same blade. (I think... ???)

JM

Geese mate!!!

two hits so early in your career!!! that sucks. I fell ya pain  :(

You can get one or two teeth replaced, but it isn't economical. Essentially saw doc will grind back the new teeth to match the 'use' of the remaining teeth - this way they will all be even, but it means you end up sending the saw to the doc and getting a 'used' saw back. Also another thing to factor into it, the other teeth may not have chipped/broken, but they may have been hit by either the screw/nail/bolt or even pieces of the other teeth and have hairline fractures in them which could let go on a knot down the track.

For me I will keep using a chipped blade right up until that 'group' of log is finished or the tooth pocket becomes exposed. If there is still tungsten covering the tooth pocket it will be ok, once the pocket is exposed, regardless of how many teeth are damaged take it off or you will be forever paying extra for that blade to be tipped as the sawblade pocket will wear and saw cod will have to do lots of 'special' work to it each time it comes in.

Good luck and I hope your saw doc does a great job for you  ;)

[Klicker]

If you keep up at this pace you will pass me in no time.  8) I hope you don't. :embarassed:

[KnotBB]

I get my blades re-tipped for just under $30 and that;s up from $25 last year.  10 mile drive and since I'm on his route he delivers the finished blade to my front porch.  I think I must have it good.  He has a copy of the page in the saw manual with the saw specs.
The only problem I've had with the shop was on diameter.  Diameter is critical!!!! Too big and you get over cut, too small and the boards stay hooked to the log.   It's not like the blades on the big circle mills in that respect.  You might mention it.

[JohnM]

He has a copy of the page in the saw manual with the saw specs.

Knot, I actually thought ahead (surprised myself ;D) and sent a copy of that page with the mill, whether or not the guy uses it is another question.  I'm small potatoes for these guys, they do blades for companies all over the state; sawmills, feller bunchers, you name it.  We'll see how it goes.  Are the Lucas blades unique to the mills?  I know they are different from say the Petersons (5 tips to 6) but are there other factors evolved?

For me I will keep using a chipped blade right up until that 'group' of log is finished or the tooth pocket becomes exposed. If there is still tungsten covering the tooth pocket it will be ok, once the pocket is exposed, regardless of how many teeth are damaged take it off or you will be forever paying extra for that blade to be tipped as the sawblade pocket will wear and saw cod will have to do lots of 'special' work to it each time it comes in.

Good info as always, Sig.  Thank you.

JM

[sigidi]

Good info as always, Sig.  Thank you.

JM

;)

[JohnM]

I know I'm digging up old bones with this thread but thought it was fitting considering the date.  A year to the day has gone by since I brought my 'new to me' mill home and yesterday I 'started' (and as it turned out 'finished') my first saw job.  To be honest.......it didn't go well. :D  All packed and looking forward to the adventure.

 

I had done a small amount of sawing (for free) for a friend last fall and ended up doing some sawing (for cash) for a neighbor of his while there, but this was the first job as a result of my CL ad so I consider it my first 'real' job.  It was not a complete failure, I lost money (and than some :) but I learned A LOT!  First, be very clear and unbending (within reason) about pricing and time spent on the job.  I had stopped by earlier in the week and looked at the logs (hemlock) and they were all 24' and 'scattered' beside the driveway.  While on the phone with the guy I agreed I'd only charge him hours on the mill if he bucked up the logs and staged them, otherwise I'd have to charge for my time helping with that.  That "if" apparently fell on deaf ears.  I got there yesterday at about 11:45am (he works nights and needed time to adjust to a weekend schedule), I left at around 6:45pm.

We spent quite a bit of time trying to get the mill set-up as we had to work basically in the driveway which is on quite a steep slope.  I had forgotten my log bearers at home which didn't help. :-[  Then we spent, I think, two hours moving the logs into the drive.

 

We got through may half of the total pile with 2.3 hours on the mill.  It was really a bit of a nightmare and the set-up was sub-par at best.  All told we ended with about 370bf of lumber, 40 2x4s and assorted 1x's.

  

 

So I went back this morning and before we did anything I told him, "I can't do all this messing with the logs for free", or something to that effect.  Wasn't mad just stating facts.  He was very understanding but said he couldn't afford any 'extra' costs.  We agreed to a 'conscious uncoupling' (google it :D), he paid me my 2.3 hours (and not a penny more :), I packed up and went home.  No harm, no foul.

Second lesson, don't forget your log bearers. :-\ ??? ;D

The adventure continues.....

[WDH]

I hate cheapskate customers.  I had one today, too, that came to buy some white oak.  Next time he calls, I won't have any  . 

[Nomad]

     John, it sounds to me like you did the best thing you could do under the circumstances.  You didn't Pith off the customer, and you didn't lose your butt either.  From what you've said it seems like you let him put you in a "no-win" situation. 
      You should have charged him for time on site and not time on the meter.  But you're learning as you go, right?  It's a mistake you won't make again. :-\
     I always charge from the time I show up.  That includes offloading, setting up the slabber if using it, etc.  As well as sharpening on site, moving logs, and so on.  And the rate stays the same.  I make sure the customer understands all that up front.  Moving the boards or slabs out of the mill is his problem.  I can stand there all day waiting if I have to.  If he has an issue, get somebody else to do it.
     I'm not saying this is the right way to do it.  Just the way I do it.

[thecfarm]

I do hope the next job is better. Sorry to hear of the trouble you had with the customer.

[Klicker]

I have been treated fairly more then  not.

[Seaman]

Good on you John for getting out there and learning!
The above is the reason I only cut logs too big for a bandmill, but that is just me.
Frank

[Ianab]

It's not a mill problem, it's a customer site problem If you had turned up with a full hydraulic band mill, it would still have been a mess.

Now if you are cutting oversize logs, then "where they lay" is an option. Easier to move the mill VS a 3 or 4 ton log. But when you are dealing with smaller logs, they need to be trimmed and stacked, same as any other milling operation. Scattered around? Not a big deal if you have tractor and forks to organise things.  Otherwise, yeah, you have to walk away

[GDinMaine]

Good for you John!  Learning to deal with customers is a moving target.
I always tell my people that I charge by the hour on the meter. If I have to do tasks that they could have done, I just leave the engine running.  I move lumber, slabs and logs. No problem.  The clock only stops when I eat my lunch or I shoot the breeze about something that is not related to sawing the logs.

[Seaman]

John,
I agree with GD. I have a $550 min, which covers the first 7 hrs of sawing.
You have to find a number you are good with for loosing a day away from home, cause it always turns into a whole day by the time you set back up at home.
I also have been treated fairly a great majority of the time.

Anything I do is on the clock, cause it is preventing me from making money somewhere else. It is tempting to be the nice guy and help everyone out, but also a good way to run a business into the ground.
My .02

Frank

[JohnM]

Thanks for the encouragement guys.  He knew he was getting a deal.  He pretended to be ignorant on some stuff, which he was to some extent, but he knew I was working a lot for a little.  And he was very understanding and didn't appear upset when I came back and said I can't put in this much time wrestling his logs and not get paid.  I mention in my ad that the mill is very portable, he took that to mean you can set it up anywhere! : :D  Like I said, at least I learned what I'm not willing to do!

I'm thinking of a two tier payment system.  Clock starts when I get set-up, stops at the last log, customer pays the hours on the mill at one rate and a lower 'labor' rate for non-sawing activity.  The reason I'm thinking about this is, as WDH pointed out, ppl are cheap (and/or lower income) up here.  The state has roughly 1.3mil ppl half of which live 2+hrs from my location, the other half are spread out over an area the size Massachusetts (and than some).  The rates some of you guys talk about just flat wouldn't work up here.  I think it's awesome that you get those rates, I just don't see them up here.  Population = money (simplistic often true).

The above is the reason I only cut logs too big for a bandmill, but that is just me.
Frank

Frank, that is my ultimate goal, that and selling slabs.  For now I'm content to do what I can and with the amount of repairs and projects I want to do to or around this old farmhouse the mill will pay for its self in lumber alone for what I paid for it.

[Seaman]

John,
sounds like a sound plan. I still recommend a minimum, to keep someone from changing their mind halfway thru a job.
Frank

[sigidi]

John, down here, I charge by volume of log ($250/cubic metre) for sawblade work and hourly ($150/hr)for slabber work. Oh, I also charge a small board fee of 10% if they want whole logs into 1" boards.

With a minimum 2 cubic metres for sawblade work and 4 hours for slabber work. IF the logs are in one pile ready to go with access next to the pile big enough for the mill - this way its up to me how long I take to get logs loaded into the mill or how long the job takes.

If I have to move the mill, it's $50 per move after initial setup.  If I have to 'organise/skid' logs into place its $50/hr until they are in position to mill. If I have to spend time on a chainsaw docking up bad logs or 'cutting firewood with that BIG saw' its $50/hr. All log rolling is done to begin with, milling is then done and then extra stuff is done once milling is finished so it can all be neatly tallied and easy for them to add up.

If I have to travel more than my local area - about 50k, I charge 40c per kilometre each way, each day. If they want the Bobcat onsite, I charge 80c per kilometre each way and charge the bobcat at $66/hr by the hour meter on the machine.

They get timber grading included in the price, onsite sharpening included, first setup of the mill, as many blades as are needed to finish the job through normal wear and tear and I provide everything needed for the job - fuel, chainsaw/s, mill water, my own food,my own bed if more than a day job but I don't stack in their shed or some other place other than directly next to the mill. Until it's right at the end of milling then its $50/hr.

Mind you, having said all this - this is almost 11 years down the track with 3 mills under my belt and many kg's of sawdust from my first year of makin the dust ;) and I'd like to think there isn't a problem I will come across that I won't be able to pre-empt and therefore negate before it becomes a problem or rectify in a very short space of time. If there is something I have messed up, its taken out of the equation and not payed for.

And something I learnt from an old forumite TOM (God rest his soul), who passed a while ago, I always look for something to give them a discount on ;)

[logboy]

Write yourself a packing list that you go over when prepping for each job. That will keep you from forgetting stuff. Plan for the worst and hope for the best. Always bring spare parts.

Everything has a price.  Everything.  If the logs aren't staged then this is what it costs. If the logs are dirty then this is what it costs.  If you have to move the mill then this is what it costs. If you hit metal this is what it costs.  You're not a charity, you're a business. If they want you to work for free they can find someone else.

Set a minimum cost for on site work or traveling.  This will scare away guys who have $100 in their pocket but want $500 worth of sawing.

Do not race your competitors to the bottom.  Too many people look at this as a small dream job or hobby instead of a business so they undercut everyone else so they have work coming in.  But you won't make any money that way and you're only screwing over your competitors who also have equipment to pay for. When everybody is sawing to break even then nobody is making any money.  It's why I do very little lumber nowadays. Everybody around here knows someone with a bandsaw who will cut for next to nothing. Go ahead and take it to them. They can run their equipment for free. I'm so backed up with my niche of slabbing that I don't have time to saw your $1,000 walnut firewood log into 1"x4" lumber anyway.

[sigidi]

Write yourself a packing list that you go over when prepping for each job. That will keep you from forgetting stuff. Plan for the worst and hope for the best. Always bring spare parts.

Everything has a price.  Everything.  If the logs aren't staged then this is what it costs. If the logs are dirty then this is what it costs.  If you have to move the mill then this is what it costs. If you hit metal this is what it costs.  You're not a charity, you're a business. If they want you to work for free they can find someone else.

Set a minimum cost for on site work or traveling.  This will scare away guys who have $100 in their pocket but want $500 worth of sawing.

Do not race your competitors to the bottom.  Too many people look at this as a small dream job or hobby instead of a business so they undercut everyone else so they have work coming in.  But you won't make any money that way and you're only screwing over your competitors who also have equipment to pay for. When everybody is sawing to break even then nobody is making any money.  It's why I do very little lumber nowadays. Everybody around here knows someone with a bandsaw who will cut for next to nothing. Go ahead and take it to them. They can run their equipment for free. I'm so backed up with my niche of slabbing that I don't have time to saw your $1,000 walnut firewood log into 1"x4" lumber anyway.

Good to see you back online mate ;)

[JohnM]

Good to see you back online mate ;)

x2!!!  Great advice logboy, thank you!