Hello People!
Getting this thread started so I have a place to start detailing out my build and posting pictures. I have a handful of the important components gathered already. I have about 20 years of metal fabrication experience but i'd consider myself a noob, and sometimes lack the engineering grasp of things :).
I had started this plan with a sketchup design utilizing 2"x6"x3/16" -24ft rectangle tube for the bed, and various square tube for the carriage and head beam. However, looking at everything we need to do here on our acreage this summer and the build time/weight of such a project, I have take a new route! I figure I'd rather get sawing sooner than later.
The plan is a towable bandmill using the surplus center sheaves on 1.5" axles, minimum 13hp honda (which I have, but looking for larger engine), 20ft x36" (or48" if I can find it) heavy duty pallet rack upright as my base track bed, V-groove wheels on inverted angle iron for the carriage motion, ACME rod lift mechanism with dual 1.25" chrome shaft & linear rod bearings for the vertical guidance, winch or servo motor for the powered lift, more than likely 2.5"x3/16" square tube for the carriage. Depending how rigid the pallet racking is, I may support it on 2x4"x3/16" rectangle tube. Trying to decide if I want mechanical tension or hydraulic for the blade tension system. Ultimately I would like power feed down the track, as well as hydraulic log handling but that may be left up to a 2nd build, need to get my feet wet first.
I have enjoyed reading through as much content on this forum as I can, and like any dedicated forum I belong to, you guys seem like a great bunch!
-Matt
Here is my first attempt at photos on here as well as my first batch of logs awaiting to be milled. These are ERC ranging from 6-18 ft long and top out at 25" diameter. I have a 5 gallon jug of anchorseal I need to open and get on them. That trailer is 14' long.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0329201928.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587733710)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0325201751a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587741752)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0325201751.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587741757)
Some more pictures. Surplus center 18.75" 1 groove sheaves with browning H bushings for 1.5" shaft. Not sure if i should use the chrome shafting rod for axles or just regular steel rod. Also pictured is the Honda 13hp GX390 I have. I recently added electric start using an ebay kit, works great. It is from a generator and I also had the 7/8" crank keyed, but did get a 1" tapered adapter for it too. This system does not have the typical throttle but it does have a solenoid, when powered will idle the system, and when off it runs at max throttle.
I just put a deposit to hold, on a Kohler Command Pro 27hp twin engine. However it has a 13 tooth splined crankshaft to which a hydralic pump was mounted. I may use this power plant, run a hydraulic pump from the splined end, and run a drive pulley from the fan end.
I also picked up this HSS tap and die set for quite a nice price! for some reason over the years i've always only had the crappy carbon steel taps. This set was mispelled on ebay, it is High Speed Steel & Made in the USA! Only one tap had been used and the comparable bosch set is $400!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0410201756.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587742101)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0411201829a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587742111)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0411201829.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587742100)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/93964405_1129859114026230_4807637179683569664_o.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587742645)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/95039152_1129857144026427_5793553970521702400_o.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587742646)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/94690393_2712131648914559_6455225873250385920_n.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587742646)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/94516893_311827003135187_8430866801700634624_n.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587742645)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0409201301.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587742081)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0409201301a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587742080)
Going to be an interesting build
The Voo Doo Chicken technique is one our most common methods of fixing kiln drying problems. :D :D :D
You don't have a kiln, do you?
Lol not yet!
Greetings, following along. popcorn_smiley
So where are you located in northeastern Nebraska?
I always push the make it long bed. I have a mill that will cut 20 foot logs. Gives me four feet of extra room when I put a 16 foot log on, instead of inches. Also allows me to get the saw head out of the way.
I'm located northwest of Norfolk, Ne on a small 40acre farm in the middle of nowhere. About 2.5hrs northwest of Omaha.
--------------------------------
Holy Cow!!! What an adventure we had yesterday.
The plan: Leave at noon to take our 16foot trailer to Omaha and pick up some 20' long pallet racking, cross beams, and a few other things. Then head to Tracy, Iowa which Gps said was 4.5hrs from Norfolk (2.5hrs from Omaha). Where the 27hp Kohler command was being sold. Expecting a 9hour road trip with a 30 minute stop to load pallet racking, and maybe 30 minutes checking out the Kohler engine, food stop and gas stops.
The Goal: Have a fun road trip with my beautiful fiance, get some heavy duty pallet racking to make this sawmill easier to build, and get a smoking deal on a 27hp engine. Be home before midnight.
The reality: ................... An hour into our tightly scheduled trip we lost a tread on one of the trailer tires at 75mph. Bent the hell out of the fender. While putting the spare on, found out it lost half it's air pressure since we left. Realized the other tires weren't looking to healthy either. We called around to several tire shops in Fremont as we were right outside the town. Amazingly we found one with the right tires and they cleared a bay for us immediately!! We received 4 new tires and put the best one on for a spare. I tipped the guys each $20 for their work as they were busting their butts and were more than accommodating. 1.5hrs of lost time on the tally.
Back on the road again we finally get into Omaha as it's spitting some decent rain, traffic is insane and we finally make it to destination #1 which was a recycling yard in a very old industrial area of the city underneath huge overpasses. Initially it looked like an area you really would not feel safe in haha, BUT wow did they have everything. It was amazing, thousands of pallet racking uprights, beams, pieces of iron in every size shape and weight. Electric motors out the wahzoo.. stood next to a 60hp baldor which was impressively large. The owner of this fairly large enterprise treated me like I was buying the kingdom even though I only wanted a few pieces. We talked about what I was building and he dug through all kinds of stuff to get me the right parts. We ended up taking two uprights, three C-Channel 5" tall cross beams and two 15" x36" roller conveyors tables I plan to make in and outfeeds for my large vertical bandsaw. $340 with tax. Spent way longer there than we had planned but got the load secure and back on our way to battle for our lives in rush hour Omaha traffic.
What seemed like an eternity later and we were finally into Iowa and on our way past Des Moines gaining ground towards Tracy. The seller of the Kohler was the nicest guy, he understood how it goes and stuck through it with us. We originally figured we could be there later afternoon and delay after delay it's now 7pm and we still have 2.5hrs to go just to get there. After a couple detours for gas and food we finally make it to his place at 9:40pm or so. Way out in the boonies it reminded me of home, and I was desperate to just lay down and sleep haha. The seller grabs some head lamps and we start tracking back through a horse pasture, througg some gates and finally to a small shed in the pitch black. There inside is the treasure I'd been seeking all day. Dusty but wrapped up nicely was the Kohler twin, in excellent shape, next to a few Kohler vertical shaft engines awaiting their buyers the following day. I help load them onto a trailer and back through the pasture. After some small talk and laughs, I pay the remaining due ($100 deposit on PayPal held me 1st in line).
On the road again....can't wait to get on the road again... And we are off! 5 hours of delusional and drowsy driving, we make it home absolutely exhausted. My fiance took the helm from Omaha to home which was excellent! 3:30am and bed never looked so good!!!....
The conclusion: There couldn't have been a better time or place during this trip that the tire could have lost its tread. We had a big clearing to put the spare on, real close to town and it all worked out. I thanked God for the blessing of how it all went down, as it could have been far worse! The best part was spending that time with my lovely companion, sharing so many laughs and looks along the way.
I got the engine for $200.... It was totally worth it!
Long day and worth all the memories. Be great story for the grand kids some day ;D
Here is the pallet racking I picked up. I hope its sturdy enough. I might end up bracing the bottom with 2x2 or 2x4 tube to made a solid trailer base for towing.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0424201922.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587830737)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0424201922a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587830770)
here are the 15" wide roller conveyors
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0424201925.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587830811)
Our towing rig for the adventure-
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0419201925.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587829674)
The daily thorn in our side...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0424201419.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587830845)
And my beautiful bride to be.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/IMG_5256.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587830604)
@thecfarm (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=436) I have read your posts pushing for atleast 20' bed which you are the reason I wanted to go 24' long on this mill. The racking I have is 20' but I thought about extending another 4'. That's probably overkill for what id be sawing.
Anyways Im kind of at a cross roads now. My original plan was to go big and heavy duty with the 24' long 2"x6"x3/16" rectangle tube and cross supports, 4' wide so I could accommodate a monster 40"+ trunk if i needed too, and then I thought....13hp......lmao
I didnt know If I would come across a larger engine, but I figured I could always upgrade the power plant in the future and i'd have a strong base already.
Then I made the choice to downsize to 36" wide and use my 13hp honda best I could so i made the deal for the rack a week ago. Not being one to go back on my word, I bought the smaller racking. Now that I have this 27hp kohler I'm wondering if I shouldnt go back to my plan of a larger mill?
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On another note, I'm on the fence about how to start my track. Initially my plan was inverted angle iron and V groove wheels which seem to be common practice. However angle iron on end in the L shape would fit so much nicer on the pallet rack so im not sure with direction to take there.
Sorry guys sometimes I'm long winded with my thoughts.
@AllDodge (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=50319) I literally said the same thing to Taelor when she was being irritated haha...
I said this is life experience right here! Imagine telling our grandkids how we lost our trailer tires flying down the highway and trekked through the pitch black backwoods to find an engine... or we could tell them how we sat at home and watched tv. ha
If you want to go with your track angle with the leg up, seek out 'U' groove wheels. My mill is smaller than what you're building. My 'U' groove wheels are 3" Dia. My channel is 1/4" and the wheel groove is 3/8" wide.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/50809/IMG_20190617_123945~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587858424)
@RAYAR (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=40809) hard to see on my phone, is your track angle iron set in the L formation?
I've seen those U groove wheels on builds but had no clue what to call em lol. See.s obvious now. I've seen those wheels riding on round stock welded on top of a base. Your mill appears to be stout from what I can see in that picture.
VooDoo, I would think you do not need chrome for drive axles. My Log-Master runs chrome shaft for the up/down slide with bronze bushings.
I ordered 1.25" chrome shaft two pieces 5' long that way I have plenty of leeway. $150. From a local metal supplier. Probably overpaid ha.
I've been scoping out round linear pillow blocks and round linear bearings you seat into a machined tube. Hadn't considered bronze bushings. Heck of alot cheaper.
Quote from: VooDooChikin04 on April 25, 2020, 08:32:44 PM
@RAYAR (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=40809) hard to see on my phone, is your track angle iron set in the L formation?
I've seen those U groove wheels on builds but had no clue what to call em lol. See.s obvious now. I've seen those wheels riding on round stock welded on top of a base. Your mill appears to be stout from what I can see in that picture.
Yes, my track is set in the L formation. My mill is quite stout for its' size. The frame rails are 2" X 4" X 3/16" X 16' long. It seems to be a shop built mill, not my build, but I have done several mods and up-grades to it since I bought it in 2018, and more to do. It's been built to mill 12' logs, but looking at building an extension or two.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/50809/IMG_20190617_124058~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587864890)
Quote from: VooDooChikin04 on April 25, 2020, 11:41:02 AM
I'm located northwest of Norfolk, Ne on a small 40acre farm in the middle of nowhere. About 2.5hrs northwest of Omaha.
--------------------------------
Holy Cow!!! What an adventure we had yesterday.
The plan: Leave at noon to take our 16foot trailer to Omaha and pick up some 20' long pallet racking, cross beams, and a few other things. Then head to Tracy, Iowa which Gps said was 4.5hrs from Norfolk (2.5hrs from Omaha). Where the 27hp Kohler command was being sold. Expecting a 9hour road trip with a 30 minute stop to load pallet racking, and maybe 30 minutes checking out the Kohler engine, food stop and gas stops.
The Goal: Have a fun road trip with my beautiful fiance, get some heavy duty pallet racking to make this sawmill easier to build, and get a smoking deal on a 27hp engine. Be home before midnight.
The reality: ................... An hour into our tightly scheduled trip we lost a tread on one of the trailer tires at 75mph. Bent the hell out of the fender. While putting the spare on, found out it lost half it's air pressure since we left. Realized the other tires weren't looking to healthy either. We called around to several tire shops in Fremont as we were right outside the town. Amazingly we found one with the right tires and they cleared a bay for us immediately!! We received 4 new tires and put the best one on for a spare. I tipped the guys each $20 for their work as they were busting their butts and were more than accommodating. 1.5hrs of lost time on the tally.
Back on the road again we finally get into Omaha as it's spitting some decent rain, traffic is insane and we finally make it to destination #1 which was a recycling yard in a very old industrial area of the city underneath huge overpasses. Initially it looked like an area you really would not feel safe in haha, BUT wow did they have everything. It was amazing, thousands of pallet racking uprights, beams, pieces of iron in every size shape and weight. Electric motors out the wahzoo.. stood next to a 60hp baldor which was impressively large. The owner of this fairly large enterprise treated me like I was buying the kingdom even though I only wanted a few pieces. We talked about what I was building and he dug through all kinds of stuff to get me the right parts. We ended up taking two uprights, three C-Channel 5" tall cross beams and two 15" x36" roller conveyors tables I plan to make in and outfeeds for my large vertical bandsaw. $340 with tax. Spent way longer there than we had planned but got the load secure and back on our way to battle for our lives in rush hour Omaha traffic.
What seemed like an eternity later and we were finally into Iowa and on our way past Des Moines gaining ground towards Tracy. The seller of the Kohler was the nicest guy, he understood how it goes and stuck through it with us. We originally figured we could be there later afternoon and delay after delay it's now 7pm and we still have 2.5hrs to go just to get there. After a couple detours for gas and food we finally make it to his place at 9:40pm or so. Way out in the boonies it reminded me of home, and I was desperate to just lay down and sleep haha. The seller grabs some head lamps and we start tracking back through a horse pasture, througg some gates and finally to a small shed in the pitch black. There inside is the treasure I'd been seeking all day. Dusty but wrapped up nicely was the Kohler twin, in excellent shape, next to a few Kohler vertical shaft engines awaiting their buyers the following day. I help load them onto a trailer and back through the pasture. After some small talk and laughs, I pay the remaining due ($100 deposit on PayPal held me 1st in line).
On the road again....can't wait to get on the road again... And we are off! 5 hours of delusional and drowsy driving, we make it home absolutely exhausted. My fiance took the helm from Omaha to home which was excellent! 3:30am and bed never looked so good!!!....
The conclusion: There couldn't have been a better time or place during this trip that the tire could have lost its tread. We had a big clearing to put the spare on, real close to town and it all worked out. I thanked God for the blessing of how it all went down, as it could have been far worse! The best part was spending that time with my lovely companion, sharing so many laughs and looks along the way.
I got the engine for $200.... It was totally worth it!
What a story and adventure 😂😂😂. Glad you got your treasures and made it back home👍👍
@RAYAR (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=40809) the 2x4x3/16 feels plenty strong? I think I'm going to line the bottom of my pallet rack upright with it to create the trailer base.
So due to the circumstances of picking the Kohler motor up, I wasn't able to test It out which goes against my normal policy but for $200 I was fine taking the gamble.
Today I blew it off with air, cleaned the plugs and oiled the cylinders. Hooked up a battery and it cranked over nicely. Checked compression and got about 120psi on both sides. Ran a line to a fuel tank but it wouldn't fire. The pump sucked fuel right up into and held the line full. I got it fired with starting fluid but the carb must be plugged up. There are a lot of linkages going onto this carb so it looks like a pain. I went ahead and pulled the flywheel to discover the common issue where the magnets came loose. One was broken but I mended it. Hoping it still will charge, as I did see some green corrosion on the copper windings. I did find someone selling two ch25 magnets from a Kohler command 25, but at $37....ehh. I'm really thinking about an automotive alternator setup. Here's a couple pictures. I took a short video but would have to link it from YouTube.
(BTW I'm taking pictures with a 16mp camera but dang they look kinda blurry once uploaded. Am I missing something?)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0425201508.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587877179)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0425201655.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587877113)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0425201709.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587876989)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0425201734.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587877073)
Quote from: VooDooChikin04 on April 26, 2020, 01:07:22 AMBTW I'm taking pictures with a 16mp camera but dang they look kinda blurry once uploaded. Am I missing something?)
A clean lens? The forum software shrinks the images down to a "sensible" size to save storage and bandwidth, but images should still be pretty sharp.
But a fingerprint on your lens can blow all that.
Cleaned it off right before! :)
Didn't know if there was a compression setting I needed to adjust.
there is a fingerprint in the last photo. the black curved broken magnet piece. your photos look good otherwise to me. :)
Thats a piece of packing tape on the backside of the glued magent :)
Very sticky, grabbed my print without permission.
:D :D :D :D just trying to help. your pics look fine to me!
More progress with the Kohler engine!
I glued the magnets back into the flywheel and let that still for a couple hours. Pulled the carb off, cleared all the passages and checked the needle, all looked good. I wire wheeled the flywheel and bolted the engine back together. I was nervous the charging system wouldn't work due to some corrosion on the stator windings, but an ohm test showed 0.4ohms which I read should be within range.
I then setup a makeshift fuel tank with a vented soda bottle and tubing. Primed the pump and hit the key! Nice and smooth and at 14volts on the tester! I did have some magnet chips come flying out, pulled the flywheel and found one magnet lost a chunk for some reason.
So the question I have no is:
1: should I have a custom keyed shaft made that will bolt to where this engine had a hydraulic pump mounted? (I have a machinist friend with a shop).
Or
2: buy a flywheel mounted keyed shaft and run my jackshaft from a pulley mounted to the front of the engine?
Here are a few photos to keep the interest.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0426201342.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587949252)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0426201552.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587949390)
Incase you couldn't tell, this was the powerplant on a lime belt conveyor.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0426201552a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587949392)
Kohler Command Pro 27 ch740 - YouTube (https://youtu.be/_QZtZDPRFYk)
Quote from: VooDooChikin04 on April 26, 2020, 12:44:41 AM
@RAYAR (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=40809) the 2x4x3/16 feels plenty strong? I think I'm going to line the bottom of my pallet rack upright with it to create the trailer base.
Yes, it's seems quite strong for the size of my mill. It's frame is 16' long and the axle is mounted 50" from the rear. It's 30" wide, has seven 1/4" X 4" flat bars for the log bunks. The carriage wheels are 27-1/2" to the center line.
It's 29" between the carriage frame and only 25" clearance height. Now that doesn't seem very high. My maximum height cut is just under 22" and it has 8" clearance above the blade so I should be able to raise the cross bars of the carriage frame to gain some vertical height clearance. Hmmmmm.... must look into that.
Pic: Just getting set up
<br
>(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/50809/IMG_20180930_134420~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587956523)
Thats a clean looking setup. Thanks for the measurements!
Quote from: VooDooChikin04 on April 26, 2020, 11:28:04 PM
Thats a clean looking setup. Thanks for the measurements!
That pic is from 2018. I've since added some mods and additions to it.
Manual winch usable from either side
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/50809/IMG_20190619_144831~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587962386)
winch in travel position
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/50809/IMG_20190619_144429~1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1587962023)
Looking forward to this build. I am very curious how the pallet racking is going to work out. Jealous about the kohler score. All I did was go to HF and grab a 22hp predator. Still not regretting it. Only issue I have is low idle stalling.
@RAYAR (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=40809) what's the biggest log you've loaded on the mill?
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Stalling at low idle is usually carb related, but I've seen it also be a dirty coil pickup on the flywheel.
I've seen many YouTube videos of people ditching the carb on those engines and using A mikuni. My Polaris uses a mikuni slide carb and it's super easy to clean and adjust!
yea, I am not even sure if I have one that is adjustable. Some were and some weren't.
It is alot of work to take all the plastic off just to get to the carb. I just adjust my throttle cable to keep the idle high enough it doesn't stall. Most of the time I shut it off anyhow.
as far as the pallet rack goes, it was kind of an impulse purchase. By the time I add 2x2 or 2x4 rectangle tube to the bottom to make a trailer base so the unit is portable....i could have just built the bed from 2x4 in the first place and not picked up the pallet rack.
however last night I was thinking, for now, just level that rack up on the ground and get sawing as soon as possible. Then worry about making it portable after its setup.
I used pallet racking when I built mine. Not near heavy enough in my opinion. ( didn't have any idea when I built it). I had screw jacks under every bunk so I would have the height. I'm 6' 4" and it's a long way down :D. You get some side to side movement when rolling logs and turning cants. I had a large log roll when I loaded it and knocked it off the blocks and bent up the bed. If you were to do a solid /" permanent " bed on the ground I would think you would be fine. Just support under every bunk and definitely add the extra steel before making it portable.
It's starting to look like it defeats the purpose of even using the pallet racking, if i need to brace it heavily at every point haha. Might as well just build a proper frame. Maybe I could use the pallet rack as a track system for a slab flattening system.
The whole reason I went that route was because the racking seemed like a quick efficient way to get a track system up and going. ugh.. lol
I wouldn't use it mostly because it will twist a ton and is not intended for strength in the direction. You would be further ahead to use that as pallet racking :)
Quote from: Crusarius on April 27, 2020, 12:27:51 PM
I wouldn't use it mostly because it will twist a ton and is not intended for strength in the direction. You would be further ahead to use that as pallet racking :)
I agree! When your putting in all the hard work and time don't cut corners
I can get 3"x5"x3/16" for $0.30/lb...
Or I can get 2"x6"x3/16" -24' long for $5.34/ft...
whats everyones thoughts on that?
go for the cheaper. 3x5 x.188 plenty strong. I used 2x6 .188
2x4 probably would have been sufficient but I wanted torsional strength since I am mobile.
Quote from: VooDooChikin04 on April 27, 2020, 07:32:06 AM
@RAYAR (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=40809) what's the biggest log you've loaded on the mill?
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Can't recall the size, I think over 20", a spruce. I've also had some heavy poplar on it, very wet wood.
A good frame size to go with would be 2" X 6" X 3/16" rectangular tubing for the size mill I believe you are building. There's a good chance the diagonal cross bracing on the pallet racking will end up being in the way some how.
Quote from: VooDooChikin04 on April 27, 2020, 01:08:07 PM
I can get 3"x5"x3/16" for $0.30/lb...
Or I can get 2"x6"x3/16" -24' long for $5.34/ft...
whats everyones thoughts on that?
I would use the 2" X 6" as the 6" vertical height would have less flex (sag) especially as a mobile set-up in a 20' plus length. Many of the commercial mills also use 2" X 6" because it's ideal for the purpose.
It's that price point though.. after wasting $160 on pallet racks (I could make lumber storage from them).... and just getting 240ft of DOM tube at $3/ft... I dont want to spend another $500 on frame haha.
30cent a lb sounds good. Maybe i should look up the weight per foot of that stuff.. maybe its not a good deal.
Betting per pound is cheaper by a long shot
https://www.onlinemetals.com/en/weight-calculator (https://www.onlinemetals.com/en/weight-calculator)
By almost half!!
--------------------------------
So here was my inspiration for the pallet racking, ole Mike has sawn ALOT of lumber on this setup... virtually the same racking.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/RackMill.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1588010571)
Quote from: VooDooChikin04 on April 27, 2020, 01:28:46 PM
It's that price point though.. after wasting $160 on pallet racks (I could make lumber storage from them).... and just getting 240ft of DOM tube at $3/ft... I dont want to spend another $500 on frame haha.
30cent a lb sounds good. Maybe i should look up the weight per foot of that stuff.. maybe its not a good deal.
The weight per ft. is 9.76 lbs for both. I wonder why the big difference in price? $2.93 @.30/lb vs $5.34 = .55/lb. Are you sure the 3" X 5" is 3/16"? Something seems odd here.
$0.30/ lb is from a small shop selling off some inventory. $5.34/ft is from a client of mine that runs a large cattle fencing operation. My local steel supplier gave me a "great price" of $6.90/ft lol.....
usually per pound pricing is on seconds. Stuff that was either cut wrong, drops, or ordered wrong. It should still be new stock just some reason its per pound.
Looks like 3" X 5" may be the way to go then.
Well I was slightly misunderstanding... $0.30/lb is for cutoffs. New steel is priced accordingly. I have to call after bit to get pricing.
On a side note, my 1.5" chrome shafting (2-. 5ft pieces) as well as my DOM tube for my custom side x side project will be here Thursday.
I'm starting to think I should just go get the 24ft 2"x6"x3/16" rec tubes.. $385 for 3 beams. $5.34/ft. Starting to feel indecisive haha.
As mentioned before and as shown in your post of ole Mike, if your not going to make it portable you could use your current racking
you will not regret the 2x6 the nice thing is the 3x5 can be picked up to do the bunks. Check to see what lengths they have for drops. Maybe you can make it work out of drops. I know the steel was the most expensive part of my build.
They have drops up to 58" so definitely can get those for the bunks real cheap! I'm actually really nervous about handling/ welding the 24' beams because ive read several threads on here about how even with care, the beams warped. Ive been welding for almost 20 years, started when I was 14 with my first gokart.. but i've never welded long beams that needed to stay straight. I've done several roll cages, and a lot of agricultural stuff (gotta keep that old equipment going!! haha)
@AllDodge (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=50319) I considered that too, just keeping it stationary on cement blocks or railroad ties as they are extremely plentiful around here. But the thought of being able to take it to my dads property where they have endless fallen trees, as well as to my inlaws or even on paid jobs if it comes to that, is very enticing!! Gets me excited thinking about it.
I'll report back with pricing from this small shop.
When welding the beams just space out the welds. weld a little over there a little over here. Just keep alternating. I also find setting the beam on something supporting the full length helps prevent warping tremendously.
Quote from: VooDooChikin04 on April 28, 2020, 11:48:56 AM
They have drops up to 58" so definitely can get those for the bunks real cheap! I'm actually really nervous about handling/ welding the 24' beams because ive read several threads on here about how even with care, the beams warped. Ive been welding for almost 20 years, started when I was 14 with my first gokart.. but i've never welded long beams that needed to stay straight. I've done several roll cages, and a lot of agricultural stuff (gotta keep that old equipment going!! haha)
@AllDodge (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=50319) I considered that too, just keeping it stationary on cement blocks or railroad ties as they are extremely plentiful around here. But the thought of being able to take it to my dads property where they have endless fallen trees, as well as to my inlaws or even on paid jobs if it comes to that, is very enticing!! Gets me excited thinking about it.
I'll report back with pricing from this small shop.
Get everything braced and clamped just like in a small application
Ok so the shop that is selling off "inventory" which is actually longer cutoffs/drops...for $0.30/lb.. wants $0.80/lb for new steel. Which is considerably higher than my clients offer of $5.34/ft or right about $0.56/lb.... Which initially I felt was high.
Sometimes all it takes is a little perspective to see the right option.
Don't skimp on the most important part of the mill. decide what you want and price it out. I bet you can price it from 10 different places and still be within $20 of each other. they all get their steel from the same place typically.
In my little town (where I work)we have a massive Nucor steel mill, and right next to them is a global supplier Norfolk Iron & Metal (NIM). Neither sell to the general public. Most places get their steel from NIM.
I know, don't skimp.. lol. I'm trying to not be cheap.
I understand cheap. You can be cheap and not skimp.
Call around to some scrap yards and see what you can come up with
Im working on a sketchup model. I've read some debate on welding in the cross supports or making them movable. Seems like moveable log bunks is desirable?
Well heres a quick start. unsure if I want to bolt the track down or weld it. What we have here is 2x6x3/16 -24' with cross braces every 5' or so.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/Rail_Bed_2x6.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1588197532)
If you think that warping the 2x6 frame could be a issue how about using flat bar bolted to the side of the frame instead of angle iron on top, then any frame warpage won't matter as you can put the flat bar on straight.
Add some adjustable log bunks and you are fully adjustable.
Thats an idea. I think I saw a production mill that had flat stock bolted through the frame along the outside edge.
Like was previously mentioned, I'll just need to be more diligent about clamping my joints firmly and keeping the whole setup well supported underneath.
Looks like I may have an excuse to buy more clamps!!!
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On to the next...
Moveable or static log bunks/cross beams? Or lower cross beams and moveable log bunks above that? I was thinking about rotating my cross supports 90*, so they are flat. Then running 1x1 square tube along the length of the frame rails, and allowing my log bunks to slide back and forth with a simple bolt clamp on each end of the bunks.
Thoughts on that idea?
One reason I bought a Thomas, movable bunks. I can slide my bunks together and cut a piece of firewood.
@thecfarm (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=436) Are you movable bunks the only cross supports on your mill? (edit: I just googled some pictures of thomas mills. I understand now)
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Supports like these wouldnt need to be welded, which would make for easier changes/ additions as time goes on. Might be a stupid idea lol
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/Cross_Brace-2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1588209729)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/Cross_Brace.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1588209730)
Before you get any further you should figure out what you are going to do for clamping. Check out my build thread for some ideas. Believe it or not the springs work amazing for holding everything in place and they are very easy to use. The only thing I would do differently is to change the angle of the flat stock so that when the sleeve is cocked the flat stock actually contacts the wood. When I am edging boards the flat stock does not sit tight against them so they move around a little.
Really only need one extra bunk for short wood, and it could be any distance from another bunk you choose and that will be your "short" limit (got to draw the line somewhere) but you will need a backstop at that extra bunk too in order to have 3 point of contact with the wood (2 backstops and one clamp) The extra bunk could be made to drop in and be made of smaller material like 2"x2" as it will not have nearly as much weight on it.
I would prefer two more bunks than what you have in your picture, that way a 8' will comfortably sit on 3 bunks, move one bunk over a bit (not evenly spaced) and a 10' and 12' on 4 bunks....
That makes sense hilltop. I need to dig through my collection of saved mill photos to start modeling my favorite design elements. The current layout there utilizes all of 3- 24' tubes. I had to shorten my width in order to still be under 72' total for the 2x6 material. I really dont want to have to order 4 tubes of the 24' steel.
I need to swing by the machine shop and see what my buddy thinks about making me a keyed shaft with a splined end to fit the crankshaft on my kohler. Im thinking an aluminun housing 2 bearings to support the shaft and it will utilize the existing mounts that a hydraulic pump would normally mount. I have no ruled out a flywheel mounted keyed shaft to run the jackshaft.
@Crusarius (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=35059) I'm going to read through your whole build thread tonight. It'll go good with an evening drink! Anyone here like Crystal Skull Vodka?
The end bunks are not really bunks they will not have a log on them, perhaps something different could be used for them that will satisfy what is required of them.
Found a guy fairly local selling 4" flat stock 1/4" thick and 20' long.. $20 each, must buy 5. I might pick some of that up. could be useful! Might make good track material.
I made my mill out of 2x4x¼" box with 2x3"x¼" angle with the 3" edge up. I sat the angle on pieces of 4" channel steel every few feet and welded. In hind sight, I probably should have just ran a couple of bolts down through each joint. I got a slight bend in one of the three sets I made - two at 16'-8" and one at 8'. Maybe 3/16" smile in one of the 16'ers. I built it this way for my bunks. They can be placed just about anywhere on the beds. What you can't see in the lower right (looks like stair steps) is a bolt that pinches the bottom leg of the angle iron to log the bunk in place. Each bed has four 5,000# rated jacks.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/150107_005.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1420700042)
Old log dogs.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20171213_a.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1513201217)
New and greatly improved log dogs!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20171213_c.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1513201640)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20171219_d.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1513744594)
I believe I read through your build not to long ago, or atleast I remember that design from some thread I like it!
Just so others will know, just like ljohnsaw did.
So here is something that has been itching at my brain... Mill bed width/ total cut width.
My cousin suggested i should make it WIDE to be able to handle monster logs such as 42"+ diameter.
Another cousin says 36" max log width.
What are some thoughts on that. We have trees up to and over 42" in my area. We just took down an american elm that was almost 50" across.
Making the mill bed that large increases the materials and bracing needed as well as makes it much more heavy and harder to maneuver during fabrication.
Sounds like really your decision, is it worth setting up for a log seen every once in a while. Lot more money for something not often handled
Maybe spending that money on a big A's chain saw to bring it down to something manageable
Also makes it so you have to really stretch. My bed ended up being 50.375 wide. I had to buy a hookaroon cause I could not reach the boards to get them off.
I also made my mill so it can take a 158 or 176" blade. This gives me either 31 or 41" between the guides. I could probably put an even longer blade on their if I drill one more hole and make another extension for my ram.
I would prefer a narrower bed so I do not have to stretch so far.
Quote from: thecfarm on April 30, 2020, 05:23:57 AM
Just so others will know, just like ljohnsaw did.
Actually, I think I copied thecfarm ;)
Also, as far as length, if you look towards the end of my build thread, I inserted sections of 2x3x¼" rail (5' sections) between the three sturdy frames (two 5' sections). The rail has to only support the head, so no other supports. That, along with 5' rail hanging of each end to park the head, gave me another 20' of log length.
Awesome, thats the kind of experienced advice I needed! Thanks guys!!
Picked up my DOM tubing for another project which ended up coming in 24ft stick!! Was expecting 20ft. Also got my two 5' sections of Chrome shaft.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0430201353.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1588284730)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0430201433.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1588284750)
Got my steel picked up today! Dang those 2x6's are heavy!!
We have:
2"x6"x3/16" -24ft. Qty: 3
2"x2"x3/16" -20ft. Qty:2
1.5"x1.5"x1/4" -20ft angle iron Qty:3
Plus the round tube for something else.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0504201613.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1588631003)
DanG, did you say rugged? :o
Thomas does this.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10436/thecfarmsupport.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1351783746)
Looks like you are about to do the same. I think I could pick on my mill and shake it around and set it back down and it would still be level. ;D
@thecfarm (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=436) I'm not entirely sure yet. I had been thinking about stationary bunks and then adding 2 movable bunks in strategic areas. I need to spend some more time on designing.
I had always planned on acme rod for my vertical movements, powered. But I've seen a handful of cable setups like on @JEverettM (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=46043) mill, that seemed easy to operate and quick speed appeared to be effortless. Not sure which route.
Someone had mentioned focusing on my log stops before moving forward on my trailer base. I should probably figure that out too.
As a final note, I need to clean this darn shop. Stuff got spread out over the winter and a day of wind and leaves while the door was open made a huge mess.
Well, I learned something today. Didn't know chrome shaft was available.
Atleast from my local metal place it's sold by the foot. 5foot piece was $75+$5tax. So not cheap by any means.
Adjustable bunks is a feature I wish I had on my mill, looks like you've got a good start on things.
Economy was the primary driving force when I built my mill. 4" C channel rails and 2" X 2" X 1/4" wall bunks. I used 2 ½" x ¼" square tubing for saddles for the 2 by 2 to sit in. The 2" tube had plates welded in the ends and tapped for ½" NC. All the cross members were bolted in as I wanted to have it one man can knock it down and move it.
@BtoVin83 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=47014) Thats a pretty slick idea!
Yeah it works pretty well. I tried it with the c facing in and didn't like so this winter I reversed it and put the c facing out. That way I can run a grabber wheel under the flange if needed and maybe add a drive mechanism. I planned on it being portable but I think that is not gonna happen and I definitely did not want another *DanG trailer especially as long as the mill would be.
Quote from: VooDooChikin04 on April 30, 2020, 06:12:43 PM
Picked up my DOM tubing for another project which ended up coming in 24ft stick!! Was expecting 20ft. Also got my two 5' sections of Chrome shaft.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0430201353.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1588284730)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0430201433.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1588284750)
Don't know what your going to use for a sleeve to ride up and down the chrome shafts for your mill but when I was benching tonight (free weight lifting). I've got a part on my power rack that's a smith machine and it's a barbell welded to ball bearing sleeves that will ride up and down on them and support a lot of weight for squats & benching. Maybe you could use that type of sleeve. Just a thought.
@Walnut Beast (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=49695) I had been looking into linear bearings for round shaft as well as I saw pillow block linear units for round shaft. Probably the same concept as youre talking about. They are sleeves with ball bearings in them.
Why not just use bronze bushings.
@RAYAR (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=40809) I recall someone mentioned how they use bronze bushings, maybe it was you lol. I keep forgetting about that option. My brain says that linear sleeves will be smoother and less friction as they also have oil seals on both sides to keep debris and dust out. BUT bronze bushings will cost less than shipping on linear sleeves lol. So idk which route I want to take yet.
instead of bronze you could also use HDPE. definitely slide smoother with no lubrication needed. Won't have to worry about contamination and bearing seizing up
So you are saying I need to cook some milk jugs on the stove?? Pour my own bushings :)
be a perfect fit around the rod. Actually a pretty good idea. make up your metal sleeves and connection points then fill with HDPE.
Wax paper around the shaft should be the perfect barrier to prevent sticking and give a slight gap.
I will give it real thought. I have tried to melt milk jugs in a pan before. Very messy and thick. I could never get it to a liquid state to pour. Was attempting to make projectiles for a 2" diameter pneumatic firing pvc thingamajig.
metal funnel with map gas or oxy acetylene blowing on sides and set chunks in. As it melts it drips through the funnel into your pre made sleeve / mold.
Could probably use a gas grill to do it to.
Could use the traeger for extra flavor!
Ha
We will see. I do have some uhmw which I used for suspension bushings on my last off-road build.
Quote from: VooDooChikin04 on May 07, 2020, 08:58:42 AM
@RAYAR (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=40809) I recall someone mentioned how they use bronze bushings, maybe it was you lol. I keep forgetting about that option. My brain says that linear sleeves will be smoother and less friction as they also have oil seals on both sides to keep debris and dust out. BUT bronze bushings will cost less than shipping on linear sleeves lol. So idk which route I want to take yet.
I don't recall if I mentioned the bronze bushings before. Mine appears to have bronze bushings mounted into metal tube sections that are welded to a piece of flat bar. They are mounted with two bolts each at the top and bottom of a section of 3" X 5" tube about 20" long. I don't have good pics of this specific area of my mill, will have to get some. My mill is currently set up in town about 1/2 hour away.
To lube, I just apply lube to the bars and run the head up and down a couple of times.
@RAYAR (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=40809) its nice and smooth eh?
Quote from: VooDooChikin04 on May 07, 2020, 01:24:43 PM
@RAYAR (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=40809) its nice and smooth eh?
It is very smooth, never noticed anything but.
I looked a little bit online and really couldnt find an easy source of 1.25" ID flanged bronze bushings. Now I can have a friend machine me some but it'll easily run $80. They would probably be brass.
OR
I found these on flea bay.. I can cut them in half and have a second set made. They are 1.25" ID with graphite inserts. $70.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/Bronze_Bushings.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1588883663)
OR
I can get 4 of these Thompson linear ball bushings for $160.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/BallBush1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1588883675)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/BallBush2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1588883687)
I've made a few HDPE parts in my time, never seen it flow. It needs to be pressed when it's in that translucent soft state, it doesn't get any more liquidy than this without burning.
I've always made a piston type mold and pressed a puck, then turned the part out of that. It'd work pretty good for this I think.
Those linear bearings would work pretty nice too xD
I think the Thompson bearings require a hardened shaft. If your chrome shaft is for hydraulic cylinders I don't think it is hard enough
@BtoVin83 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=47014) you may be onto something there. This is hydraulic cylinder chrome shaft, and I believe they cut it with their horizontal bandsaw, so I'm assuming its not hardened. The idea here is that those linear bearings would mar the shaft over time, wear through the chrome skin? I'll need to look into that.
If that is the case.. I may just have my friend turn up some brass, UHMW, or delrin bushings.
I put an email into the materials department from where I ordered the chrome shaft. Need to find out if it is Induction hardered chrome plated shaft or just chrome plated. If it is the latter, then it is perfect for linear bearings.
I'm hooked on these dang linear bearings because I feel like they will be much more friction free than other methods.
Its hardened just not much more then grade 8 would be my thought. You can cut grade 8 with a drill or saw just takes a bit more time, but not that much more
Old MF harrows had wood bearings (lignum vitae), I wonder if a oil soaked hard wood would work?
I have a wood working mallet from kings fine wood working on youtube. its made from lignum vitae. very cool wood.
I'm all about keeping it simple stupid. If something is difficult and complex, then its going to have more failure points. When I build things its generally robust and simple to the point it lasts without issues. Thats the goal here. I just enjoy discussing various options and hearing other opinions.
That said, i'll most likely go with some type of solid typical bushing material. Actually as I type this I remember I have a box of UHMW bushings I used on my last offroad build for the control arm bushings. Gonna go to the garage and check them out, i'll report back asap.
Here is the last buggy I built. 2003 fuel injected suzuki 600 engine. 6 speed. 15K rpm redline. would easily break 100mph. for scale, the rear tires are 25" diameter. I sold it a few years back but have kept track of er, 8 years of hard punishment and hasnt skipped a beat.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/IMG_20140410_181216.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1588899823)
GSXR 600 buggy by VooDooChikin - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z35GBaVT7G4)
Call Thompson they will tell you if chrome shaft will work, just didn't want you to waste your money on something and find it doesn't work
Well the bushings were not large enough, I was hopeful. BUT I forgot how smooth UHMW is. I ran a chromed socket through it, and it was so smooth. I think that may be the route I go. Easy to replace as they wear, if need be.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0507202018.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1588900842)
nice buggy. I have been wanting to build mini baja cars for the whole family. I already have my rock crawler. To bad I have to drive so far to use it.
The UHMW should make great bushings, I'm thinking one long bushing holder one each side with a bushing on each end and bolted on would be easier to align than four holders, could also add hyd cylinder wipers to help keep the bushings/rod clean.
Nice work on the buggy!
@Hilltop366 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=8975) My thoughts exactly!!
@Crusarius (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=35059) of course once I sold my buggy, we ended up moving out to the farm I grew up on and just 2 miles down the road are these awesome mini dune sand trails, and miles upon miles of zero maintenance field roads.. So I need another off roader, besides the little polaris 300 we have.
Quote from: Hilltop366 on May 08, 2020, 09:51:20 AM
The UHMW should make great bushings, I'm thinking one long bushing holder one each side with a bushing on each end and bolted on would be easier to align than four holders, could also add hyd cylinder wipers to help keep the bushings/rod clean.
Mine appear to have been made as separate bushing mounts, but then joined by a tube to make them like a one piece bolted in place by two bolts at the top and two bolts at the bottom. Was in town yesterday and got a few pics. Mounting plates are actually metal bent into angles and welded to each side of tube at top and bottom. This is how mine has been done, very smooth up and down.
top of 3" X 5" tube - saw head bushing guide
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/50809/IMG_20200507_163821.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1588964125)
guide mounting
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/50809/IMG_20200507_163914.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1588964237)
3" X 5" tube - saw head guide mounting (four bolts)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/50809/IMG_20200507_201910.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1588964346)
round tube with bushings and mounting plates is what my thoughts were, thanks for the photos!!
@RAYAR (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=40809) is your mills drivebelt also around the saw wheel? As in directly driving the saw wheel and acting as a tire. looks that way in the photos.
Quote from: VooDooChikin04 on May 08, 2020, 04:02:37 PM
round tube with bushings and mounting plates is what my thoughts were, thanks for the photos!!
@RAYAR (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=40809) is your mills drivebelt also around the saw wheel? As in directly driving the saw wheel and acting as a tire. looks that way in the photos.
Yes it is and works just fine.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/50809/IMG_20200507_202021.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1588968920)
Yea I had wanted to go that route for simplicity but I'm going to have to end up running a flywheel mounted shaft and don't want my engine backwards.
I spent a little more time on sketchup today. I have a question before I move on to my backstops.
On this bed version I have the cross beams lifted 1.5" up from flush. However, should I make them flush and then bolt on some stainless square tube? (taking that reference from reading about green wood causing corrosion on the log bed and from Matt Cremona on youtube).
I do still plan to change the spacing of the cross beams or add two movable units to accomodate shorter logs.
Those 4 legs are stabilizers, I do plan to have atleast 6 jacks for leveling.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/SM_bed_1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1589003366)
What is the purpose of the corner stabilizers if you are going to have 6 jacks?
With the bolt shown to hold the stabilizers, they just won't stay put. If you put a log of any size on there, they will be like they are not even there - they WILL slip. You need jacks (screw thread) that won't budge.
Making moveable bunks with that design will be a challenge. You'd be better off to have permanent bunks but uneven spacing. Just have a pair that are close (like 4 or 5'?) for small logs and then longer spacing for everything else. You just work in the area that is needed. I have six moveable bunks but rarely move them now that I have them set in a good pattern.
I was gonna say that too, as easy as that idea is I just didn't like it so made jacks. You could have sliding tube with holes for a pin, and a little thread to take up the last of it, if it's going to stay put. Otherwise you prob want screw jacks.
I used pregalv tube instead of stainless on the bunks (I've read that can stain but not seen it yet) you could use mild steel tube with a folded stainless sheet riveted to it by the sides or something - i.e. inverted channel. Unless you can afford the stainless tube then sure. I think you want something there, or you'd be forever repainting your bunk frames
I have looked at several designs that used out rigger legs like these in conjunction with jacks, I figured it was for extra support? 24' is a fairly long span. Idk what I'm doing lol.
So the current floor plan is 24' long x 40" wide. The bunks are evenly spaced at 3' 10" on centers. My idea for a movable bunk was to have some square stock welded between two of the bunks and add bunk that could slide across the stock as tracks, BUT just having a solid bunk in between two actually should be fine.
my bunks are 3 feet apart for the length of the mill. I need an 8 foot log to span both toe boards, my turner, and my clamp. an extra bunk in the area you might work a short log would be great. the outriggers may decrease the "surge" you get when changing direction of the carriage. the pins on the 6 jacks have a little play and the whole mill moves a little with the inertia/momentum of the carriage.
@doc henderson (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041) thanks for reading my thoughts about movement in the jack mounts haha. I appreciate the insight from your experience!
I have seen some mill builds with outrigger legs going out at an angle as well. It makes sense to have something to stabilize, but I have zero first hand experience with any mill.
Quote from: VooDooChikin04 on May 09, 2020, 01:50:01 AM
I spent a little more time on sketchup today. I have a question before I move on to my backstops.
On this bed version I have the cross beams lifted 1.5" up from flush. However, should I make them flush and then bolt on some stainless square tube? (taking that reference from reading about green wood causing corrosion on the log bed and from Matt Cremona on youtube).
I do still plan to change the spacing of the cross beams or add two movable units to accomodate shorter logs.
Those 4 legs are stabilizers, I do plan to have atleast 6 jacks for leveling.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/SM_bed_1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1589003366)
I made the bunks 2" higher than the side rails. In hindsight, it was a bad idea. With the end open like that you get alot of junk that wants to collect in the tubes. I capped all mine then sealed them with caulk. But when I went to remove my backstops that are bolted into the bottom of the bunk I had water come pouring out.
After that I decided that was a bad idea. what I should have done was put my trailer jacks inside the frame at an angle so when the feet came down they pushed out more giving me a wider more stable foot print. Then make the bunks and side rails all level and hang the carriage wheels over the side of the rail to allow the blade to get within 5/8" of the deck.
Even with the bunks painted I end up leaving black lines on all the wet wood I cut from the bed. It needs something between the steel and wood. I think adding either 1" square stainless or aluminum bolted directly to the bunks would have been great. Or another thought was 3/4" HDPE. This would make sliding the log to center it quite a bit easier and make removing slabs from it also easier.
Now one issue with the bunk caps is what are you going to do for log clamps? My clamps slide on my 2x2 bunks that are spaced 12" from my 2x6 bunks. So the 2x6 is for strength and the 2x2 is for clamping.
The spacing I have on my bunks is 12" between the 2x2 and 2x6 then 36" to another 2x2 then 12" to another 2x6. Another hindsight, I should have made an area with 2 clamps within 12" of each other to allow me to cut super shorts and cookies.
After using the mill for a while I could exceed the character limit in a post if I went through all the random thoughts I have on my design. One day I may start a lessons learned thread.
oh yea, forgot about trailer jacks. I bought 8 of them from surplus center. I started 3' in from the ends then spaced them to clear the axle and tires. Placing them at the very ends does not allow you to utilize them to their full extent.
I probably could have gotten away with 6 but the 24' bed was kinda marginal knowing I would be dropping logs on it. I do get the entire mill wiggling on the trailer jacks just from the slop in them. That is why I said diagonal in my previous post.
The movement I get from them being vertical I think is actually a good thing. it allows for a buffer when something shifts suddenly, or the idiot on the tractor drives into it. if the legs were rigid then they would want to bend.
I hope you find my ramblings helpful :)
some folks strap the log load side to the ground so they do not knock it off the supports, and out of level. I have thought about triangulating some straps to each jack to try to make them more stable. more annoying than anything.
All this info is golden!!
@Crusarius (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=35059) i had actually thought about ways to mount my carriage track towards the bottom of the 2x6, 1 for more clearance and two to keep the center of gravity a hair lower. If I go that route I'm not sure how to effectively do it with the angle iron. My original thought for that was to use flat bar and weld square tube as spacer/mounts off thr 2x6 then bolt the flat bar track to those. I haven't cut any metal yet so the sky is the limit on thr design.
I could go the stainless square tube route for my bunk toppers pending it's not like $10/ft because that seems wasteful. I do have access to a large aluminum siding break, and could make C channel caps with powder coated aluminum.. easy to replace.
As a side note. I really like the green monster sawmill that @homesteading (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=37517) posted about. I've studied their mills everywhere I can online and really like their features and simple approach to things. I thought their use of trailer hubs from the blade wheels was cool. They use the axle stub to mount the saw wheels and the 5lugs mount to the saw carriage frame. Also their back stops & log dogs seem very simple yet effective, as well as their leveling and stabilizing system.
Idk, without ever using a mill its hard to say what works and doesn't but I really like their whole setup. It just makes sense. Probably should have just bought one lmao.
yea. same boat I was in. But now that I built it and used it I know what I think I really want.
Hence version 2.0 and 2.5. already have v2.0 designed and am working on 2.5. Leaning towards building 2.5.
My mill is constructed with 2" X 4" X 3/16" tubing 16' long. It has 7 cross bunks of 1/4" X 4" flat bar spaced at 23" apart except for the first one, it's at 19". Flat bar works good for log bunks, you could probably use something along the lines of 3/8" X 6" for the size of your mill, a few cross tubes with flat bar in between.
Well I have that 3rd 2x6x3/16 rect tubing that was intended to be my cross bunks. Paid $120 for it, I feel like I should use it lol. I feel like a pretty set on using the 2x6 for the cross bunks. Im going to price out stainless square tube monday for putting on top of my bunks.
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I am confused a little about the back stops. I understand mills generally have a small stationary stop for putting a cant against. The part that seems to confuse me is the various types of movable stops. I have seen ones that are all connected and pivot up to the desired height. I've seen the kind that are round bars that you manually raise up and down at each point, and square tube you manually raise. I'm really not sure what type to even start thinking about.
@Crusarius (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=35059) you asked as far as bunk caps how am I going to do my clamps?.. I had been thinking about sliding units that will mount next to my 2x6 bunks. They would flip up and either be screw or cam lock style. that was my thought at least.
My log stops are like your bed stabilisers idea,but upsidedown. Works ok but if you could have a control that raised and lowered them in unison that would be awesome.
I think stops that swung up in an arc might not take the forces so well when you are rolling a log against them with a peavy or hook
my stops rotate up and I have no issues with them holding. What I do not like is they are an absolute nightmare to try to true 90 degrees to the bed. They have to be squared up the full range of the arc not just all up or down.
one of the things I absolutely love about my mill design is the log clamps. you can see them in the pic below. They are 2.5x2.5x.188 wall. 6" long with a piece of 3/8" flat bar that flips up. They slide on the 2x2x.188 wall tube next to to 2x6x.188 wall bunks. I keep the bolts just tight enough they stay where I put them. then I slam them into the side of the log and hook the chain that you see hanging from the bed. The chain has a spring on it and it holds the logs better than I ever expected.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/sawmillcomplete1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568644408)
You can also see the backstop in the background. I have 4 of them linked together with 1x1x.120 wall tube. I use a trailer jack on the one end of the mill to raise and lower them all together. I like that setup alot to.
I did borrow other ppls ideas wish I could remember who, but my first backstop is 1/2"higher than the rest, so if I clear first one I clear them all.
HA!! I remember seeing that chain and spring setup in action on a youtube video back before I joined here and thought it was pretty clever idea. Had kind of forgot about it.
@JoshNZ (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=37173) Ive been thinking of ways to get vertical moving backstops today, other than hydraulic. I had a vision of a saw tooth shape and when pulled would ramp the stops up wards but to get a foot of vertical movement your "Cam" would have to be as tall. Think of of like a row of shark teeth, and the log stops have rollers on the bottoms that ride these shark teeth. sounds ridiculous lol. Another option was acme rods driving the log stops upwards all connected with a chain and sprockets. There is probably an excellent existing way of doing this that im oblivious to. lol.
As far as bunk caps go, you can always use hardwood strips. I have seen a production mill with those on and they're replaceable when they get worn a bit.
For vertical back stops, there are some mills that use a rack and pinion set-up. They will have to have very little play to keep them square though. If the tubes are long enough, they'd have less play.
As for pivoting back stops, the pivots would have to be square in every axis, to carriage travel, to the top surface of log bunks. It could be shims or bolt and lock nut type of adjustments.
Cam lock dawgs are so much quicker to use and set and release if designed properly.
I know, some things require a lot of thought and head scratching to solve things you'd like to have on your mill and hopefully get it right the first time.
Just remember, all this discussion will lead to a successful mill build and you guys are being a major part in that.
I've been getting my shop cleaned out so I can get this going. Also waiting on a box of Lenox blades for my band saw so I can get cutting!
Picked up a wellsaw model 600 last summer. Takes a 98.5" x 3/4 blade. Weighs a lot of pounds lol. Beast.
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VooDoo, Look at my LM3 in the for sale area here. They have a lot of simple sturdy ideas. I always said if I was building I would copy theirs. There are some things I would change just as with my new Baker which I have not used yet.
On your supports. I went and looked at how Thomas does it. They have 6. But they did not go in at an angle with the set bolts. Those are flat. Now the log supports are at the angle, but the supports are at the flat part. That have never moved since '07. When the big cants are flipped over they hit hard. Never had to relevel in all those years. But I never move it either. On the bottom of each leg is a ¼" piece of flat stock with a rod in the middle. The rod goes up into the 1½X1½ support. This allow the water to drain out.
@tacks Y (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=21743) thanks I'll take a look at it!
@thecfarm (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=436) how many Jack's are in conjunction with those 6 support legs?
none. It was levered with a farm jack. I did not get the wheels with it or the tongue to trailer it. I do not plan on moving it either.
Well I got it!
Guy said it was on a 2015 fertilizer trailer, running the hydraulics. Said they only used the trailer 1-2times a year and then it would sit.
I got the engine, fuel cell, hydraulic pump, hydraulic tank, and a large car battery.
The engine is also equipped with a remote throttle controller as well.
Only took 9hour round trip.
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That is a good score. well worth it.
The specs I found online say 60lb ft of torque. Should be better than my original 13hp Honda. Lol
I got one metal cutting blade out of the 4 I ordered last week. So now I can start cutting. (Could use a cutoff wheel)
However this weekend we are having people over to celebrate my fiance's 1yr of nursing school under the belt!
Found this thing for sale at a trading post type shop. Figured it would be handy to own.
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nice. that will help on setup. after that probably not so much.
I need some input on a couple things.
My idea is to go hydraulic on the movements of the mill. Hydraulic motors to drive the acme rods for vertical movement, Hydraulic motor to drive the carriage down the bed, and probably hydraulic blade guide movement. Also Id like to have a log loader, log turner, and leveler be hydraulic. So that being said... I have some options.
1: Run the hydraulic pump from the 36hp powerplant and then run my blade drive belts from a flywheel mounted pulley system.
2: Run the hydraulic pump from my 13hp honda seperately and put all power of the 36hp to the blade.
3: dont use hydraulics and bust my butt man handling the logs, and saw. lol..
opinions?
for head travel I would look at electric.
especially if you want hydraulic drive blade.
Then again if hydraulic drive blade and carriage then when one slows the other will also. may work good for preventing waves.
FWIW,I like option 2, I'd put the power to the blade...Electric up and down on the carriage.
I did not mean hydraulic blade drive... blade drive will be by belt direct from the 36hp kohler.
I meant carriage down the mill bed and back.. and saw head up/down. I've seen some very cool setups using hydraulic for those two movements.
my main concern is that I would be robbing too much power from the engine by also running the hydraulics from it. opposed to a separate engine driving the hydraulics.
@Crusarius (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=35059)
I had planned on electric until I saw a build using hydraulic motor to run the acme rod to raise & lower the saw head. It was excellent, tiny slow movements for precise measurements as well as fast so not waiting time to get where you need.
I like the idea of hydraulic raise and lower but for bed travel I would lean more towards electric. a 12 or 24 volt wheelchair motor will get you pretty close to what you would need. Just add a potentiometer to it and your infinitely adjustable.
I toyed with the idea of electric over hydraulic for log handling and just mount everything to the bed and use a battery. Set it up so when the head is in the home position it charges the battery. I have no idea how long a battery will last in that application but it may be worthwhile. Could always just run long wires to charge the battery constant.
Cheaper to run long wires than a bunch of hydraulic hoses or a second engine.
dang guys its been close to 100 degrees more often then not these last couple weeks. hard to get motivation to go cut and weld in the heat.
Change your schedule up😳. Sleep 😴 from 10:30 am to 5:00 pm in the heat of the day and then work all night and in the morning while it's cool.
My 1985 Mitey Mite band mill has both hyd up-down for the saw head and hyd carriage back and forth , manufactured in Portland, Oregon, company still in business. the hyd systems work great. There adjustment valves on both systems for setting the flow/speed. Both systems operate off one pump and that is driven off the 18 hp Honda motor by a 3rd belt The main pulley has a 3 grove pulley, 2 belts for the saw and one for the hydraulic pump.
I would go hyd off the 36hp. 1 motor is enough, TK a one point ran 2.
Good point about the schedule change, thats something I actually might do!!
@Iwawoodwork (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=29762) would you mind detailing a little about how those functions are driven by hydraulics? Hydro motors with chains? Hydro Rams? Definitely curious.
I was worried that driving the saw and the hydraulic pump would bog the engine down. But I like the idea of not having two engines mounted.
Thanks guys!!
VooDoo, the saw head lift is with a single ram pushing the head up but it has two lines to the cylinder so may be gravity or power down also. The feed system is a hydraulic motor with a sprocket that the chain (about size 40) serpentines up and over with an idler on each side, this is mounted at the base of the carriage. The one chain is running along the outside of the inverted angle (v) track anchored at each end with threaded bolts so the chain tension can be adjusted. The newer saws are controlled with and electrical pendent to electrical over hydraulics, My saw being an early model is a manual lever control system.
Quote from: VooDooChikin04 on June 18, 2020, 12:12:12 AM
dang guys its been close to 100 degrees more often then not these last couple weeks. hard to get motivation to go cut and weld in the heat.
You aint kidding. I wouldnt come out of the house till after 12pm, so i could at least work in the shade, and still have some wind. I didnt get much accomplished on my mill, but got some done, which is better than nothing.
Hey Guys!! Im still around. Still collecting parts for my mill build. Trying to get a few projects wrapped up like my vintage stove restoration. Recently finished a 1948 sears coldspot fridge restore.
I picked up a plasma cutter few weeks back to assist with the mill build too!
Also got a 2019 polaris general 1000 for help around the acerage, it'll tow 1500lbs so it might come in handy pulling a log hauler around.
Im still excited to get this mill started.
-Matt
Wondered if you had gotten that stove done.
Good to see you back.
You should love the Polaris General. Just as comfortable as a car but a real workhorse
It's been great so far! Been doing some trail riding and put it to work! (Disregard the derelict barn, that is on the to do list!)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60036/0425211801_HDR.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1619561628)
Wow...over a year hiatus. I'm still kicking and still wanting to get this sawmill build underway.
Since I was here last:
1: we brought a beautiful baby boy into the world. He's super smart and coming along real nice.
2: have a second child on the way!
3: launched our 4th company, creating new parts for the Polaris General UTV platform. Not an advertisment but definitely check it out. OnlyGenerals.com
4: started gutting my garage as it was last updated in 1980. After suffering some water damage, and rodent infestation...it was time for a change. Thinking metal siding and closed cell spray foam insulation, with a finished interior. (Definitely interested in experience with spray foam insulation).
It'll take me a while to get caught up on what I've missed over a year and a half. Definitely nice to see the same names and faces still mulling around these parts. :)
come on, 1.5 kids are hardly an excuse :)
Welcome back. Would love to see more progress.
Quote from: VooDooChikin04 on September 15, 2022, 10:17:46 AMlaunched our 4th company, creating new parts for the Polaris General UTV platform
Nice web site and great looking products. But you need one more! If you're adding a glass rear window between you and the dump bed, you're gonna need a headache rack to protect the glass!!!
Hi!
Yea definitely, we have over 100 new products on the road map. We just launched in April and it took a bit to get manufacturing setup as well as coating, and all the other logistics that go into this. We are working on an array of bed accessories such as racks and covers. Thank you for the input, I definitely appreciate it.
Matthew.