Dunham 441 log hog VS skid steer

[Ventryjr]

I'm looking at buying a Dunham 441 log hog "skidder" tractor. Does anyone have any experience with them? Owner told me it's the same as a ford tractor.  Is that accurate? It has a blade on the front and 2 independent log tongs on the back.  Roll cage.  2wd.  It's for sale for $1k doesn't run and appears to be quite a project.  Probably a new motor. Sitting outside without a head currently. 

I have a newer kubota 75hp CTL.  Am I better off passing on the "skidder" and buying a skidding winch for the skid steer? When it's dry I can get the skid steer thru the trails no problem.   Muddy is a challenge. Gets slippery.  Thanks for the input. 

[stavebuyer]

The Log Hog is basically a tractor modified for skidding. Setting its age and condition aside; 2wd and no winch means it is not going to be much of tool even if it ran.

For skidding I would first prefer a skidder. If I could only afford one machine it would be a 4wd tractor with a FEL and winch.

[thecfarm]

Never heard of them before.
Google had some pictures. As mentioned 2wd and no winch. Which I am kinda surprised on both of that. 4wd sure is nice in the woods. So is a winch. 

[beenthere]

Dunham Log Hog Tractor - YouTube

[Ventryjr]

The Log Hog is basically a tractor modified for skidding. Setting its age and condition aside; 2wd and no winch means it is not going to be much of tool even if it ran.

For skidding I would first prefer a skidder. If I could only afford one machine it would be a 4wd tractor with a FEL and winch.

I agree.  Ideally I'd have a 50hp tractor fel, grapple, forks, farmi winch, and a cat skidder for the big stuff.  But I can get non of that for ~$5k. I can however either buy a farmi style winch for my skid steer.  Buy a wfe 2wd farm tractor and a winch or buy this log hog and put a new motor in it. 

[Corley5]

If it needs an engine how's the  rest of the drive train?

[Walnut Beast]

Not even a comparison! A tracked skid would smoke it

[stavebuyer]

It might in Nebraska. They won't pull squat where there are hills and clay.

[Walnut Beast]

I'm looking at buying a Dunham 441 log hog "skidder" tractor. Does anyone have any experience with them? Owner told me it's the same as a ford tractor.  Is that accurate? It has a blade on the front and 2 independent log tongs on the back.  Roll cage.  2wd.  It's for sale for $1k doesn't run and appears to be quite a project.  Probably a new motor. Sitting outside without a head currently.

I have a newer kubota 75hp CTL.  Am I better off passing on the "skidder" and buying a skidding winch for the skid steer? When it's dry I can get the skid steer thru the trails no problem.   Muddy is a challenge. Gets slippery.  Thanks for the input.

The key is getting the front of the log up off the ground and your golden. I've seen some 60 hp  wheeled skidsteers move some pretty big logs

[Ventryjr]

I have some videos on my yt channel "rusty mill" where I move some decent sized hemlock logs with my skid steer. But like said above it's terrible in clay with a incline. I was thinking this tractor deal with a set of tire chains might fair a little better.  Could look at adding a winch to it in the future.  I figured it's got to be better then just a farmall m with a wide front end.  And idk about the rest of the drive train.  Could also be junk. 

[mike_belben]

I would build a junkyard articulated truck skidder with 2 solid axles and a chelsea pto from an NP205 to power a braden freespool winch before i fooled with another 2wd tractor.  

[stavebuyer]

A chained 2wd tractor will pull a lot of wood. FWD shines when you are loading or going uphill empty. Traction pulls logs. For a man on a budget that has a skid steer to load, a 60HP 2wd tractor can pull enough wood to buy what he needs next. If you are hooked correctly your front wheels aren't going to have enough weight on them to help with the pulling.

[stavebuyer]

It's been my experience that a winch is the heart of the operation unless you get into a dual arch grapple skidder class machine. Any smaller machine whether it be tractor/skid steer/dozer/small skidder is going to need a winch to get much done.

Winches require someone to pull cable, set the choker and unhook at the landing. I toyed with the idea of a winch for the front of a Cat 289D tracked skid steer. Nice machine and handy with a grapple for pushing brush, roughing in a path etc. 

Then I got to thinking how much of a pain it was to get in and out of the thing and how the safety interlocks disabled the hydraulics if the door/seatbelt/restraining arms weren't in place and that the hydraulics were controlled via a button on the joystick. Then you would have to skid backwards. Not having the root grapple in front sort of negates much of the handy part of the skid steer in the woods. Working a winch by yourself means that you are on and off the machine every few minutes. The cost of the SS hydraulic winches was considerably higher than the 3pt mechanicals. I would put a good winch on a cheap tractor and then upgrade the tractor as the checkbook allows.

[Walnut Beast]

That little  441 doesn't weigh much. The problems it had on a dry surface would be a nightmare in muddy conditions. Any tractor in that weight range would have trouble. A friend in Alabama had a tire mulcher and went tracked because he got tired of getting stuck. Unless he gets something bigger weight and fwd I would stick with the kubota skid and move some wood

[Walnut Beast]

I agree the winch setups on the back of a decent tractor seems to work pretty good for several guys on here

[stavebuyer]

I have some videos on my yt channel "rusty mill" where I move some decent sized hemlock logs with my skid steer. But like said above it's terrible in clay with a incline. 

[nativewolf]

Dragging is one thing but have you considered a forestry trailer?  Of course with prices of everything I have no idea what one would cost but it takes a lot less to pull one out.  

Less expensive still is a good log arch.  You can make one or buy one and it would leave you with a bit of dry powder.  A good arch and an ATV/UTV/Small tractor can move a log pretty well.  In this area if the 2wd tractor can't pull it the 4wd may but also might just get your in more trouble.  

Just ideas.  I think the pros and cons have been well hashed.  

[mike_belben]

The issue with 2wd tractor is not enough front ballast. If its got manual steering and you add the ballast you cant steer.  Hydraulic steering, a thick axle beam and pivot, and robust steering parts make this a smaller issue, but its THE issue on a little old rowcrop tractor with pinky thick steering rods and manual gearbox.  The wheel gets ripped out of your hand constantly, tires get stoved into full steer like 80* sideways beyond the geometry limits and get stuck there. Its dicey. 


If the 441 has beefy front the cure is add a heavy front blade.  Id cut down a scrapped snowplow, put a pair of grapple fingers and a gear box behind the blade.  This will way increase the forward pulling capacity, roadbuilding and log piling capacity.  Using the blade to clear debris allows the tires and stuff to survive longer by prepping the ground you run on. 

[mike_belben]

Alright i just found a guys facebook named log hog tractors with dozens of pictures of them dismantled.  It really is built right for the job. Full frame with belly pans, serious axle beam and rocker, protected hydraulics, real cab etc.

 Buy it fast.. Its not anything like a normal tractor and is worth the effort to out of frame the motor and fix whatever the driveline might need.  Even if youre into it for 5k nothing else is gonna pull wood like that in the same price range.

You havent posted any pics of the back of the one youre looking at so we dont know whats missing, but most of these im seeing have a winch, one or two grapples, a blade and serious cab.  

It wont go where a skidder will but it can make you a monthly living without a monthly payment. Do it.

[mudfarmer]

If you don't want it, send me a PM? Might know someone that does for $1k buy in depending on what is there and I would make him give FF their cut

[mike_belben]

Yeah dont let that go to scrap please.  

I just reread your first post, sorry for forgetting your description of the setup. Blade is great.  Is the winch under the seat gone?  Are the tongs literally tongs or are they hydraulic grapples? Ive seen singles and duals on hyd arches.


What loghog did right is build an exo frame around the tractor.  Deletes the 3pt hitch and allows the attachment pivots and winch base to be built right at the axle.  Tremendous increase in lift and skid capacity compared to when we keep a conventional 3pt ag hitch and start a minimum of 30" further back.   Even 10" makes a night and day difference.


Cutting brakes and a diff lock will make for a very nimble machine that can zig and zag like no other.  I can circle my tractor within the footprint of a large hot tub.

[Ventryjr]

I'm going to look at it in person tomorrow and I'll post some pics then.  And it appears to have log tongs mounted on hydraulic lifting arms. Not a grapple.  I'm going to look into the power steering and possibly if it has a winch. I've been dealing with the owners son who doesn't know much about the unit.  I guess the father (owner) is ill. I also know where I can get my hands on a hydraulic winch for a reasonable price. I'll keep you guys in the loop.  Thanks for the advice.  Much like this topic I've been flip flopping on what to do haha. 

[Walnut Beast]

Dragging is one thing but have you considered a forestry trailer?  Of course with prices of everything I have no idea what one would cost but it takes a lot less to pull one out.  

Less expensive still is a good log arch.  You can make one or buy one and it would leave you with a bit of dry powder.  A good arch and an ATV/UTV/Small tractor can move a log pretty well.  In this area if the 2wd tractor can't pull it the 4wd may but also might just get your in more trouble.  

Just ideas.  I think the pros and cons have been well hashed.  

Definitely! That's why I made my log trailer! I don't plan on dragging the logs a half mile out of the woods

[mike_belben]

I wouldnt ask too many question and get the seller to start putting higher value on it after research. Just show up with sockets and a breaker bar and try to roll the motor and trans.  Try it in each gear and see that it doesnt lock up.  Bout the best you can do. 

A woods trailer is king if you can make it happen.  No one is giving grapple loaders away however. Not easy to come by. 

[thecfarm]

Trailer is fine on somewhat flat grade. 
Even a ½ of wood on a trailer coming down a steep hill with a 2 wd tractor will get your heart going by the time you get to the bottom. 
I have worked a tractor in the woods since '93. BUT on my land. I am very fussy with my roads and what I leave in the woods. Rocks are hauled into wet hole and rough ground. Trails are worked on to make them easier on the tractor., Yes, I might twitch out more than I should at times, but stumps are cut low and nothing I run over for small trees. Yes, it takes time, but I have not done any major damage from a branch. Yes, banged up fenders a few times, but nothing that needs to be replaced. A tractor is a tractor. No reason to run over trees 2-3 inches across or over a bunch of brush. And just so you all know, I am not easy on equipment. People see my tractor and wonder what I do with it.  : 

[Ventryjr]

As @thecfarm said I don't think a trailer would work good even with a 4wd tractor. To steep of grades a trailer will push a tractor all around.  

[thecfarm]

We use to haul wood out with a trailer with a 2 wd tractor and a steep hill. Than we got a 4wd with the same trailer and same steep hill.
 The front wheels will hold you back. Or something sure did work better.    
What a difference!!!

[Ventryjr]

 

 

 

 
I think I'm going to pull the trigger on it.  
Tires all hold air and have some life left. Everything else seems intact.   No winch and doesn't look like one is missing.  But it does seem easy enough to mount one on the rear.  Motor looks like a total loss. Cylinders are stuck and heavily corroded.  Owner claims to have all motor parts in a box and the sheet metal for the hood.  Said when they tried freeing up with motor they tried every gear and the clutch worked good. Motor never turned while they owned it tho.   I found a few ford diesel tractors locally that run. I think I'll do a motor swap. 

[47sawdust]

Well you are the right age for the project. Plenty of time to the finish line.
Best of luck getting it going.

[mike_belben]

i guess for the money you cant go wrong, its a robust hunk of iron by the pound. an electric winch would serve it really well for the occasional twitch that it cant back up to, but the way those are armored itll get up in where an ag tractor is getting torn up so probably not a ton of winching needed. yeah DC winches are slow but they cost less than the slider tackle and brake bands for a real winch.  a 12k electric is enough to flip the tractor over backwards so strength wise theyre fine. just need a good marine battery and alternator working right.


id tear the motor down and inspect it real good, then check agkits and such for parts and weigh out maybe partly doing it yourself, just sub the parts you cant do to a shop.  drop the crank out, sit it up on some tires and soak the pistontops in wd40 or diesel, PB, blue kreeper, kroil or whatever your magic sauce preference.  seeing it wash down is a good sign.  cut a hunk of hardwood limb or firewood to sit nice and flat and tall out the top of the block and beat the pistons down a bit without wacking the deck.  if it wont budge put some bottle torch, more sauce, more time then in a day or 3 more beating.  get them driven down to reveal the ring marks.. then hand sand the bores with diesel for lube until theyre shiny all the way out.  flip it and again use a wooden rod to drive the pistons out onto a piece of cardboard or dog blanket etc.  

it looks like a parent bore block and not a wet liner.  hopefully the bores have an oversize left in em.  

buying another motor of that age but "runs" can often mean a high priced core that needs a headgasket and few other things soon after anyways... so i would inspect the one you got real hard and considering a full reman on it before paying much for a sorta good one. composite headgaskets have an age based shelf life, no way around it.  if its from 83, its leaking.

[Ventryjr]

Well a deals made on the log hog.  I just need to pick it up. And maybe I'll get into rebuilding it.  I'm not sure yet. Maybe I'll swap the motor and set it's current motor aside to rebuild later.  I have a collection of items to rebuild later haha. 

[mike_belben]

congrats man.  hope to see it resurrected one day.   8)

[Ventryjr]

Thanks! My plan is to have it running to use this summer.  But we will see about that! 

[mike_belben]

meanwhile.. what attachments do you have for the skid steer at present?

[chevytaHOE5674]

Looks like a ford 175ci diesel? Based on a 3000 series tractor.

If so don't bore the motor out without having some thick wall sleeves pressed in and cut back for factory size pistons. The ford motors are common to cavitate and one in the condition probably isn't long for this world you don't want to remove any more iron. Lol

Personally you can probably find a good running motor with good oil pressure, little blow by, good compression, etc and come out way cheaper than rebuilding that old hunk.

[Ventryjr]

I found a ford 3000 diesel at auction with a "rebuilt" motor and bad clutch going for $1k.  So I may pick that up to swap motors then assess the current motor in the log hog once it's out.  I'd like to be able to use the log hog this summer.  

@mike_belben i have forks, bucket, hitch plate, jib boom and a auger. For the skid steer. 

[Ventryjr]

The current motor in the log hog is not original. It's blue and the rest of the tractor is yellow. 

[mike_belben]

take your forks, stiffen up the back rack to mount a 12,000 pound, 12vdc winch with remote and 100ft of steel cable, a high roller made from a used mini-ex bottom roll out of your local dealers scrap hopper and a hydraulic 3rd finger off the remotes.  get some 11-r22.5 snow chains with the L wrench and crescent adjusters all the way down the side, cut a few rungs off to fit your machine on all 4.  buy some old arc welder cables from your favorite weld/fab shop or scrap yard and put an anderson connector down your boom to run the winch.  the winch brake is the issues, not the rating.  an 8 winch will pull the machine over, but the load holding brake is only good to 4k so skidding with the winch will wreck the brake.  youve gotta transfer chokers over to a welded grab hook once you reel it in if you need to skid.  thats why a grapple is so much faster for logs you can drive up to. climbing out to chain and unchain everything gets tiresome. 


you will have a really nimble little micro logger for short distance jobs.  the 3rd finger hydraulic top clamp is critical.  youll be furious trying to juggle logs with plain forks in a woods setting and itll be a ton more fishing through the same ruts trying to catch that fidgety log right until you get stuck. 

 i personally prefer the stump bucket in the woods but intend to put a grapple on my forks for handling back up in the yard.  i cut the center tooth out of my stump bucket, put in a trailer hitch and use it to walk a bunk trailer.. until i popped the engine.  









this is the grab that is worth what it costs, and its not as easy to get it with forks, which is why i prefer the stump bucket.  being able to pinch between top and bottom fingers instead of a flat slippery fork surface and one finger on top.  you can snake a 16ft log out backwards between keepers but you cant carry it crossways with forks or a brush grapple. 

[mike_belben]

the skid steer wont go where the tractor can.  so the skid steer is best on the landing to load truck or trailer.  the tractor fetching out of the woods to it. 

[Ventryjr]

Ended up with the ford 3000 also.  Has 2100hrs so I'm planning on swapping this motor into the log hog soon and potentially rebuilding the motor in the log hog.  I'll post more pics once I pick both of them up.  Thanks for the insight.  

[Ventryjr]

 

 

 

 

Picked up the log hog this weekend and began disassembling it.  I'm not sure if this block will be salavagble or not. But either way it's coming out.  

[chevytaHOE5674]

If the block isn't split it should be salvageable. But with how many 3cyl ford tractors are out there it may not be worth rebuilding. 

Pre-covid a guy could buy a ford 3000 that runs good for 2k bucks or less with worn out tires perfect for a transplant. 

[mike_belben]

a gas axe will pop that rust right off and swell the bores enough to start working lube down there and get things ungummed.  dont melt a piston and dont shatter one beating on it.   an old busted axe handle makes a good piston pounder. be careful not to wreck the cylinder walls incase thats a parent bore block. 10 or 20 over aint gonna clean much if you really ding it. 

[mike_belben]

pretty cool machine.  on dry/frozen ground that isnt too steep or off camber i bet that thing can get pretty good production. 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Its a parent bore block with thin walls to begin with and prone to cavitation.

The cylinder walls wouldn't be what worries me they are easy to bore and sleeve. What would worry me is the open water jackets and freezing weather, the open holes down to the oilpan so the crankcase could be full of water and ice. 

[mike_belben]

yeah id expect it to be.  i opened the planetary on a fully sealed winch last night and it had in ice crescent in the bottom blocking it from shifting to freewheel. 

[Ventryjr]

I pulled the dipstick out and the oil was slightly low and dark black so I don't think water made its way down that far. The ford 3000 I bought at auction didn't "go" I guess the auction house left the sellers the ability to decline a sale price. So I'm still on the hunt for a replacement motor.  Id still like to rebuild this one.  But I think a complete tractor would be my best bet for getting this unit running.  Looks like I might be missing a bunch of small parts/ hardware. I do have the head/valve train that was kept indoors and doesn't look bad.