Live Oak -- wasting my time?

[Ianab]

Technically you need the diamond wheel to sharpen the carbide.  ;)

But I get the idea. 

[charles mann]

Technically you need the diamond wheel to sharpen the carbide.  ;)

But I get the idea.  

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[FactorySeconds]

We saw a lot of large oak, only trunks mind you. We've only ever used carbides and keep them as fresh as possible. Anything less than 50" we mill at 10/4 to finish at 2", more than that we mill at 13/4 and make sure the stacks are at the bottom of the kiln - they will get finished at whatever the twisting will allow.

Slow and methodical will get you there.

[tule peak timber]

Agrifolia,
  Hard to cut, hard to dry, hard to deal with. Beautiful.

 

[Southside]

After Rob has touched it one must add "Hard to pay for too"  :D

[wkf94025]

Thanks all.  Great input.  

@Rob, since you seem to be the only person dealing with the same species, would you agree slab it now?  Assuming I slab to 3" thick and paint the ends, what would your air dry / kiln dry schedule be?  Most of my drying experience with my solar kilns has been Doug Fir and Redwood, which are obviously faster/easier/more forgiving than any oak or other hardwood.  

[tule peak timber]

I've been cutting, drying and using this oak, along with its cousin, canyon live oak, for about 15 years. I use it for passage doors, window trim, fireplace mantels, bartops, hollow form box beams, island tops, butcher block, and on and on. It is a really beautiful wood that is all around us and nobody is using it. It is, as I said, hard to cut, dries like a pringles potato chip, so you need to be pretty creative to use it.

I've found that cutting green, fresh logs produces a great deal of twist, cup and bow, sometimes 7-8" over 8' of length. I like to wait one to three years before slabbing as I get better recovery and less wood movement during drying. I used to use end sealant, but stopped years ago as these oak logs open up like the Grand Canyon no matter what you do. If you want I can post a great deal of pictures in a variety of uses. 

Is it worth milling? In my opinion YES! It has the greatest, wildest figure of any CA wood and a lot of people like that. It is on the other end of the spectrum from Ikea looking woods!

[wkf94025]

Thanks Rob.  Very helpful guidance.  If I was targeting a table 12ft long, and likely book matched or river style (meaning two long pieces matched up), what rough thickness would you recommend slabbing at?

[tule peak timber]

12 feet is really long for Agrifolia. I would mill at 3" thick with the aim of 2" thick at finish. Even with this thickness, you might have to use the crush break and realignment technique to see 2" finished. Since you are working with epoxy, you can float out low spots and backfill. It's the tremendous twist over 12' you are going to see and have to deal with.

A couple of pics of Agrifolia projects I have completed. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wkf94025]

Great photos, great advice.  Thanks Rob.  Maybe I should convince school that several shorter tables are better overall.  Where can I learn more about crush break and realignment technique?  Also, independent of that, does steel substructure make a difference in twist management?

[tule peak timber]

Crush and break is something we do here on unruly slabs and boards with twist, cup and bow. Basically, I look at where there are problems, put these problems over soft sand, sometimes with a trench in it, and drive something really heavy over the problem. My Cat forklift is good for this purpose. We then pick up the pieces, clean them well, and align them on a very flat, true table, clamp everything up and epoxy the slab/board back together. These breaks usually occur right along the grain lines, so after the pieces realign, it's pretty hard to tell what happened. We've saved many pieces of water warped wide plank flooring this way also. Once the piece is glued back up, a little light flattening, then sanding in prep for finish. We actually do this quite frequently here and it's earned me the honorary title of "wizard of crap". 

As far as breaking the table up into smaller units; absolutely YES. If possible you can maintain grain flow from table to table, which is pretty nice.

We don't use steel substructure to correct slab problems but frequently imbed packed carbon fibre strands (tow). This is similar to what stone counter guys do with rodding. Works very well. We do frequently subset steel and other metals, but it has nothing to do with structural; only for looks.

[wkf94025]

Very cool methods!  Would my 6 ton skid steer qualify as the breaker device?  (5 ton base weight, plus heavy attachment).

[trimguy]

Do you only break it with the grain 
( split ) or do you break it it across the grain ? This is interesting.

[tule peak timber]

Yes, on both above. This method can flatten wood without taking away substantial amounts of thickness. You need to have a very strong true table on which to pin and align these pieces. We also use fine tuning tools, such as 20# sledgehammers, to crack and break down into alignment parts of a slab that just don't want to flatten out. By strong true table, I mean REALLY strong. Then beyond taking a pringles potato chip and making it look like a tortilla, you can go in at the ends of a slab with a cold chisel and start removing shards and long splinters, forcing the natural edge outline of a slab into anything you want. The trick to the human eye is cracking and breaking along the grain and bringing the grains back together tightly, with a LOT of big clamps. Clamps and massive cauls, 4x4 oak is standard, and I have a whole pile of steel eye beams just for this purpose; to press against the true table. This is how I do most of my work.

Doctors rebuild broken bones in a similar fashion. Autobody people; somewhat the same. Ship builders take plate and torture it into compound complex curves. Have you ever eaten chicken piccata and notice that it doesn't look anything like the shape of a chicken piece?

Just some food for thought. (I eat a LOT!!)  ;D

[Old Greenhorn]

Well, I for one and intrigued, in fact if I knew what it felt like I might actually say titilated (easy guys, you should know what I mean).
 I have an 8' RO slab in the shop I have been looking at for at least 3 years. Frankly, it is in the way and I have no plans for it besides and ad hoc work bench and a place to dump extra epoxy before it cured. It got a pretty hefty cup in in. Recently I have been thinking of ripping it down the center and running thru the jointer, then re-gluing it together. Maybe this would be a good subject for trying to learn this technique?
 When I take a shop break tomorrow I am gonna stare at the thing in a totally different light. :D

[KEC]

Agree this is interesting stuff. Years ago I read about using red and live oak to build Old Ironsides. Using manual labor, they cut big  pieces for corner bracing out of tree trunks with a big attached limb with hand saws. So, at least you are going to have an easier job on your hands than they did. Good Luck with it.

[beenthere]

Didn't know about the red oak, but know there was a lot of white oak used on that ship back in Geo. Washington's day. 

Geo. Washington ordered three frigates to be built to battle the pirates. Materials were collected and finally due to needing a frigate to go to battle, Old Ironsides was built in a years time (what I read). 
Sawing and shaping 6" thick white oak planks for cladding and 12" by 12" frames of live oak by hand, and pinning together with copper rods was quite an undertaking. The keel was white oak. Wondering where on the ship the red oak might have been used. 

[tule peak timber]

In England, as a kid in 2nd year school I did a detailed report on the generations in a family who went into the forest to bend and train ships knees. These families would bend young oak trees progressively over the years into the shapes required for ship framing. England had a huge Navy and merchant fleet and oak was in big demand. I still have that report somewhere in storage. The other thing I remember about Fox Hill School was the caning for non-performers in the classroom.
 Before you try the crush and flatten method make sure your effort and time is worth it economically. There are a lot of other woods that take less effort to tame into submission (more profit). Personally, I like Live Oak, have a lot of it in my home, my drying sheds, and in the field with customers.

[wkf94025]

Thanks for the ongoing advice, and fun stories from the past.  The wikipedia page on Old Ironsides is a great read, both from a military history standpoint, and from a woodworker's standpoint.  I particularly enjoyed reading about when they decided to capture an enemy vessel as a prize, versus sink it / burn it on the spot.  

Regarding the economics of chasing Agrifolia, the school specimen has sentimental/historical value to the school, so financial considerations (within reason) take a back seat.  The only real investment is my time.  [Yikes]  Good news is that the 20,000# of Agrifolia that I got in April (which started this thread) will give me some practice material to warm up on, and time to do so, given the fact that the school log came down only 2 months ago.  Also, kismet:  the April Agrifolia grew up about a mile from the school Agrifolia.  In comparing DBH's, the April tree was probably ~50 years older.

[bannerd]

I would cut it now and wouldn't wait... even if you soak it years down the road in water.. it will swell and has a high risk of cracking the log right down the middle.  If you don't have time then make sure it's on the ground.. out of the sun.

Such an awesome tree!

[tule peak timber]

Speaking from experience, when you go to bid the job, keep in mind that our school system here has a lot more dollars,,,than sense. :P

[beenthere]

I would cut it now and wouldn't wait... even if you soak it years down the road in water.. it will swell and has a high risk of cracking the log right down the middle.  If you don't have time then make sure it's on the ground.. out of the sun.

Such an awesome tree!

Suspect it will take little if any water if submerged. But would keep the wood from surface drying and surface checking (just no swelling). IMO