Two Species, One Stump!

[SawyerTed]

There are two species growing from the same stump.  

Tulip Poplar on the left and white oak on the right!   

[thecfarm]

There was a white pine and an ash doing that across from the house that I grew up in.
Very odd.
I have not seen that on my land.

[Peter Drouin]

If people can intermix, why can't trees? 

[doc henderson]

our dog and cat both have longer same color hair.  They act as if they are related.

[Ron Wenrich]

But are they the same age? 

[WV Sawmiller]

If people can intermix, why can't trees? 

DEI at work again. 

[SawyerTed]

But are they the same age? 

I'm not proficient in guessing the age of trees of different species.    They both are similar diameter +/-18" DBH.  

My guess would be the white oak is older than the poplar.  Both are on the north edge of a large hay field.  I'm thinking (WAG) the white oak is 70 years old, the poplar maybe 40-50 years old.  

I've  owned this part of the farm since 1986.  Before that the property was mostly untouched for 20 years except for cutting hay.   

Trees were cut in this section to flue cure tobacco as late as the 1960s.  There are many multiple stem trees that probably sprouted from stumps.  

[beenthere]

If people can intermix, why can't trees? 

Probably only like two in bed together. 

Not like one baby with one arm one color and the other another. 

[Brucer]

I have a few of those.

The most common combination on my property is a Quaking Aspen (hardwood) and a Western Red Cedar (softwood). What I found when I cut one pair down is that there are two stumps, with the WRC wrapping around the Aspen trunk like a crescent moon. The roots are totally intertwined.

I'm guessing that two seeds germinated about the same time in the same location and the trees grew up together. The Aspens tend to grow straight up with the branch-lets near the top. The Cedars grow branches right away in all directions. Neither of them get overly shaded by the other.

If you ever cut a pair down, it would be interesting to saw through the stump(s) close to ground level and see how they merge.

[Ianab]

I would guess the same age, because they probably started out as seedlings together. If one was an established tree it would have shaded out the latecomer and suppressed it as it was so close. But 2 saplings starting out 2ft apart, and the race to become the dominant tree could end up as a dead heat, and both trees survive. 

We have a more unusual pairing here in NZ. One of the dominant local trees is Rimu (A podocarp softwood). It eventually grows into a substantial tree, usually reaching out of the general canopy. Another tree called rata often starts out as an epiphyte up in the crown of trees like the rimu. It's not a parasite, and starts in the collection of moss and ferns up in the tree. But eventually sends aerial roots down the outside of the host tree to the ground below. These roots thicken up over time, and by the time the host tree dies (hundreds of years), the rata roots are thick enough to act as it's trunk. Over time the dead rimu rots away and leaves a very unusual looking multi-stem rata tree standing in it's place, usually with a hollow inside. The rata can then go on to live a few hundred more years. But in that intermediate time, you have both trees sharing the same stump space. 

The rata can of course colonise other trees, but they generally aren't as tall and long lived as the rimu, so they don't end up as the impressive top story trees in the forest. It can even grow from the ground, but then just grows into a shorter bushy tree. That seldom happens because it's not shade tolerant, and most of them starting on the ground would be out competed. Up in the top of an old rimu, it's above most of the canopy, and gets enough light to grow. 

There are various trees in different stages on the road into the Nat Park, I should get some decent pictures of them. They vary between a wrist size vine down the side of a tree, a 12" trunk, a dead rimu with a rata top, to a hollow rata tree. 

[Ron Wenrich]

My guess is that they're not the same age.  White oak is a climax species, and is very tolerant.  Tulip poplar is more intolerant.  The white oak was probably there when there was a harvest.  Tulip poplar have seeds that are good up to 7 yrs.  It could be released when the overstory is removed.  I don't recall seeing poplar in the understory the way that I have seen oak.

I remember having a discussion with a landowner about size is not an indication of age.  He had a small 4-5" white oak growing under another tree, and it was in his yard.  I asked if I could do a core sample to get its age.  40 yrs old.

[SawyerTed]

The trees from the high side with the debris moved away.


The trees from the downhill side. 

Not sure why these trees have occupied my thoughts like they have.  Trying to figure out just why they grew like this is both interesting and impossible.  

I did some research on estimating age based on circumference.  The white oak is slightly smaller around (65 inches) than the poplar (67 inches).  I tried to measure circumference at the same height above the crotch, about 12".   That put me at 54" above the ground on the high side.  Calculated diameter for both right at 20-21 inches.  

The online estimates are 60-65 years old for the poplar and 100-105 for the white oak.  

That would be consistent with my understanding of the different growth rates for the two species.  White oak grows much slower.  

The second photo shows how the white oak (on the left) wraps around the trunk of the poplar.  Wouldn't that indicate the white oak is older?  

Also as you can see in the second photo, these trees have had ample sunlight at the edge of the field.   I'm looking due south to take the second photo.  I'm thinking these trees might have had a higher growth rate since they are not in a canopy forest.   The field has been there over 100 years.