iDRY Vacuum Kilns

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Vacutherm iDry input

Started by schwanee, August 04, 2018, 07:41:26 PM

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Busysawyer

Jim, I think what is throwing me off is the thickness of the exchanger. I have a bp-200 water to air exchanger. It is roughly 24x24 but it is about 3 times the thickness of the exchanger in the kiln and has a 2350 cfm rating. 
So I checked on the kiln load today. I was seeing the temp just over 150f. Some of the 4/4 that was pretty well air dried was at 6-7% mc according to the delmhorst j2000. All the 8/4 was pretty darn consistent at 8-9 % mc. Very little if any warping or cupping. Most of the slabs had anchor seal in the ends and very little checking. The few slabs that weren't sealed have moderate checking. All in all very impressive results from where I'm sitting. I put this load in Monday afternoon and it looks like it will be coming out tommorow.  I'm attributing the success to my extraordinary ability to push the start button.  I put a lot of time in to study how to push the start button and it looks like I nailed it first time out.😆
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

nativewolf

Quote from: Busysawyer on November 24, 2018, 11:56:51 AM
Jim, I think what is throwing me off is the thickness of the exchanger. I have a bp-200 water to air exchanger. It is roughly 24x24 but it is about 3 times the thickness of the exchanger in the kiln and has a 2350 cfm rating.
So I checked on the kiln load today. I was seeing the temp just over 150f. Some of the 4/4 that was pretty well air dried was at 6-7% mc according to the delmhorst j2000. All the 8/4 was pretty darn consistent at 8-9 % mc. Very little if any warping or cupping. Most of the slabs had anchor seal in the ends and very little checking. The few slabs that weren't sealed have moderate checking. All in all very impressive results from where I'm sitting. I put this load in Monday afternoon and it looks like it will be coming out tommorow.  I'm attributing the success to my extraordinary ability to push the start button.  I put a lot of time in to study how to push the start button and it looks like I nailed it first time out.😆
@Busysawyer- two people called today looking for you but i couldn't make out the numbers.  One is the Geico easy ad agency, the other is Holiday Inn head of PR.   No idea what they want but I'll take their message next time.
Liking Walnut

Busysawyer

Native wolf , I let me secretary handle all phone calls.
So the load came out of the kiln today. Overall very impressed . Very consistent mc, 6-7% in all of about 50 places I poked. Cut a foot of if one of the pith cracked slabs and even moisture in the center as well. Most of the lumber behaved itself. Had one 8/4 cherry board the cupped and twisted a little and some of the low grade 4/4 walnut I put on the top to fill empty spaces moved as well. Besides that everything looks great. I have a few loads of 4/4 of various species that is thoroughly air dried I'm going to cycle through to heat treat over the next couple days. 

 

 

 

 
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

Glenn1

My first load went in last Tuesday.  Today, I opened the kiln to take a peak.  The 4/4 cedar mc was 7-9%. The 4/4 walnut was 10-13%.  My 8/4 walnut slabs will still need another week.  I plan to take out the 4/4 cedar and walnut on Tuesday.  They should be ready.  From what I could see, the boards looked flat and I did not notice any checking.  (All boards were previously sealed with anchor Seal).  
Vacutherm IDry, Nyle 53 Kiln, New Holland Skid Steer, Kaufman Gooseneck Trailer, Whitney 32A Planer

Southside

Glenn - 

When doing a mixed load like that - just curious how do you deal with the sterilization component? 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Glenn1

The kiln has been running in the 150 degree range for the last 18 hours so I imagine that the internal temperature is above 133 degrees.  All boards should now be sterilized.
Vacutherm IDry, Nyle 53 Kiln, New Holland Skid Steer, Kaufman Gooseneck Trailer, Whitney 32A Planer

nativewolf

That sterilization question was exactly what I wanted to know.  So can you get Phyto certs with these kilns?
Liking Walnut

Busysawyer

I put in that small load of air dried red oak for about 18 hours. It was air dried for 6 months under open sided canopy. Then it sat in the heated barn for a couple weeks with a large fan circulating air. I checked in about 20 places before running it through the kiln. Found readings from 8-10% mc. I started the kiln late afternoon, the next morning the kiln was just under 160f . I pulled the load a couple hours later and checked another 20 spots or so. All readings came back 6-7% mc. Happy with the results again. I was planning on starting another quick overnight run today but snowstorm kept me busy moving snow and hanging out with the kids. 
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

nativewolf

How do you check for case hardening on your oak?   Could you send pictures of end grain on the oak?  

Liking Walnut

Busysawyer

Native wolf, I'm not sure what is the correct way to check. Like I said before I am far from an expert. I have done a fair amount of reading and talking to guys with air and kiln drying experience but I am  very new to this. I knew enough when I started to air dry the oak sheltered from the wind to slow down drying. I guess I figured after 6 months of air drying and a couple weeks in a dry heated shop I wouldn't have to worry about case hardening. I tested this the same way I test everything.  Poke a bunch of different places throughout the pile and cut a bord or two in half and see if I get the same readings in the center. I'd be happy to take a picture. Do you want a pic of the end grain of the cut from bucking the log before it was milled or a fresh cut?
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

ronwood

Sawing part time mostly urban logs -St. Louis/Warrenton, Mo.
LT40HG25 Woodmizer Sawmill
LX885 New Holland Skidsteer

nativewolf

Busysawyer, yeah that would be great.  I'm really intrigued by these small vacuum kilns.  We'd built a demo and were putting together some larger build plans but now forget about it.  This would be so so much easier.  I think the economic impact of these kilns is actually an important game changer.  Assuming we can get certifications re to sterilization these could completely change marketing for us.  So yes, any and all info and send me a PM if you ever want to arrange time to chat.  
Liking Walnut

Busysawyer

Ron, thank you for the link. I dont have a saw that I am comfortable with trying to RIP 1 in material with so I cant really do those tests properly. 
Nativewolf, here are some pics. I made a few cuts but not a proper test.

 

 

 

 

 
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

nativewolf

Quote from: Busysawyer on November 27, 2018, 09:04:47 AM
Ron, thank you for the link. I dont have a saw that I am comfortable with trying to RIP 1 in material with so I cant really do those tests properly.
Nativewolf, here are some pics. I made a few cuts but not a proper test.

 

 

 

 


paging yellowhammer or gene
Liking Walnut

PA_Walnut

I don't believe its possible to case-harden 8-10% material. It needs to be above EMC.

Put some green in there and put the screws to it and see what you get.I am going to assume that since oak is ring-porous, the vac will suck the water right out of the ends it and it will be fine....just a logical assumption.

I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

Glenn1

Good News! Today we took out the 4/4 walnut and the 4/4 cedar.  There was no checking nor cupping.  The Mc was between 6.4 and 7.3.  They have been planed and are now on the shelf.  
Vacutherm IDry, Nyle 53 Kiln, New Holland Skid Steer, Kaufman Gooseneck Trailer, Whitney 32A Planer

WDH

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Busysawyer

Glad to hear its working well for you as well Glenn.  I found something that was a little bit strange.  I'm sure there is a scientific explanation for this but it is probably beyond my comprehension.  I ran that little load of air dried red oak and in 18 hours temps were near 160f and the wood was dried down to 6-7%. After that I immediately put in a small load of 4/4 walnut that I had previously had in my solar kiln for two months or so and had it down to 7-8%. Then it sat outside under cover for a few months. I tested it at 10% or so when I put it in the vac kiln. I thought it would be another overnight dry-sterilize. Checked about 18 hours later , temps in the high 140s mc 8-9%. It took about 40 hours to get that load up to 160f and down to 6-7%. Kind of surprised the solar kiln dried walnut took twice as long to dry as the air dried red oak.  Sure did come out nice though. Loaded another oversize load of hard maple today. 16/4, 12/4, 8/4,6/4 and a little 4/4 as well. 

 

 
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

PA_Walnut

I need one of those things to catch-up on the drying! Are your sales able to keep up on the output end? If so, should pay for that thing in NO TIME!  :o
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

YellowHammer

Re Prong Test:
As noted the prong test specimens need to be cut down the end of the boards several inches, I like 6 inches, parrallel to the face.  Think of an Oreo cookie, cutting out the white center layer between the outer black layers.  

I've done it with a portable band saw or a sawzall.  Chuck the board, I like 4 to 6 inches wide, into a vice, end facing up and make a couple cuts as long as possible from the end, parrallel to the faces, trying to keep the same distance from each face, and say remove the inner 2/3rds of the board.   Basically cut out the white center of the board, leaving the faces intact. Remove the white creamy filling.  :D
Then sit back and watch the prongs and see what happens.  Sometimes they bend instantly, sometimes its take awhile.  It's a very useful test.

Or do a planer test, run an 8 foot or longer straight board, and I mean dead straight, sighted along its edge on its side so gravity doesn't play a factor, through the planer and take successive cuts 1/8" all from the same side.  Unbalance the fibers in the board.  If there is residual stress in the board, then as the one face gets shaved and unbalanced, the board will begin to bow.  It will keep bowing and then maybe even straighten as the face gets removed.

Then repeat the test with a bowed board, and take the all the meat from the high side.  If the board start to change shape, bow more, or reverse bow, then it's stressed.  

Stress can be caused by several things.  

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Brad_bb

A few things:

Busysawyer, did you need to insulate and seal the barn, or was that just a preference for you, nicer to work in etc?

I see the material loads on a car and rolls on rails into the kiln, but do you then have to move the rails in order to close the door?  How does that process work of moving the rails if that's what you do?

One issue is that when you dry wood down to 6-7%, You need to have a place to keep it at 6-7%.  If you just put it in a shed/pole barn, it's going to reabsorb moisture isn't it?  So that tells me that anything you dry needs to be sold right away so you don't have to store it in conditioned space.  The customer should also know that part of what they paid for is drying it down to that level and that they need to store it in conditioned space if they want to maintain that.  Otherwise, buy air dried wood at 10-15% MC.

So what if you have wood that you want to take from green down to only say 12%, because it's going to be used for T&G in a horse barn.  Can the idry do that?  I did that this year, had my wood Nyle kiln dried to 12 and then machined it.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Busysawyer

Thank you for the explanation yh.
Brad, I will be using the barn as a showroom. It is heated and will be ac when warm weather hits so I wanted it sealed and efficient.  The kiln needs a dry space that is kept above freezing. All kiln dried wood will be stored in climate controlled space. One of the selling points of the idry for me was the ability to quickly dry material thus eliminating the need for stockpiling large inventory.  If I start running low on something it can quickly and efficiently be restocked. As far as drying to specific mc , say 12%. I would just check daily.  Already I've got a pretty good idea what's going on in there by just watching the temperature graph. If you think you are getting near your target mc push the stop button then push vaccum releases button. Wait a few minutes, open the door and test. The kiln does not lose much temp and climbs back up rapidly. The kiln releases pressure once every 24 hours to drain the accumulated water that is on the floor. If you wanted to you could time your testing when the kiln dumps the pressure instead of checking when it is convenient by forcing a release.
Pa, at this point just using the kiln to finish air dried and partially air dried material it is turning over way faster than what im selling. We are new to retail and still working on setting up a store front.  I sold quite a few walnut slabs from that first load already though.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

jfric

Quote from: Brad_bb on November 30, 2018, 10:35:46 AM
A few things:

Busysawyer, did you need to insulate and seal the barn, or was that just a preference for you, nicer to work in etc?

I see the material loads on a car and rolls on rails into the kiln, but do you then have to move the rails in order to close the door?  How does that process work of moving the rails if that's what you do?

One issue is that when you dry wood down to 6-7%, You need to have a place to keep it at 6-7%.  If you just put it in a shed/pole barn, it's going to reabsorb moisture isn't it?  So that tells me that anything you dry needs to be sold right away so you don't have to store it in conditioned space.  The customer should also know that part of what they paid for is drying it down to that level and that they need to store it in conditioned space if they want to maintain that.  Otherwise, buy air dried wood at 10-15% MC.

So what if you have wood that you want to take from green down to only say 12%, because it's going to be used for T&G in a horse barn.  Can the idry do that?  I did that this year, had my wood Nyle kiln dried to 12 and then machined it.
I have a feeling this is going to start a debate. I'm not trying to start something, and I'm very willing to be proven wrong, I'm just speaking from my own limited experience. Here we go...
I think the concern about keeping kiln dried lumber in a climate controlled space gets a little too much sometimes. I live in Houston. We don't have walnut trees (or maple or cherry for that matter) so almost all of the walnut I buy comes from Missouri. It travels here on trucks that aren't climate controlled. It is delivered to hardwood lumber dealers that keep it in buildings that aren't climate controlled. Then I buy it and put it in my shop that isn't climate controlled. I tested a bunch of walnut this week that has been in my shop for well over a year and the highest reading I got on my Wagner and delmhorst meters was just over 8% (lowest readings were in the 6% range). Our average outdoor emc here is suppose to be somewhere around 13.5% I believe. 
Again, I'm happy to be proven wrong by someone who knows otherwise... but my understanding is that the bound moisture in green lumber is what is really hard to remove, but kiln dried lumber will not regain bound moisture. Any regained moisture is free moisture which the wood will release fairly quickly if it is taken into a climate controlled area to acclimate.
I'm not a moisture denier, I wouldn't store kiln dried lumber outside. I'm just saying sometime we as woodworkers can get a little overly hung up on this subject. I really do mean "we", as I've spent a ton of time fretting about the same thing myself. 
I'm happy to hear from anyone who can add more on this topic. If I'm misenturpreting my experience and I'm wrong I'd like to know. If I'm right... there's a first time for everything. I hope we are still all friends. I've learned an unbelievable amount from this site. Or, have I?  :)
iDRY vacuum kiln, Nyle L200m kiln, Woodmizer LT15-Wide, Bobcat S300, Stihl MS880, 36" and 60" Granberg Alaskan Mills, Ford F550 flatbed.

Busysawyer

Jfric, the professional full time woodworkers I have asked about this tell me that once it has been dried down to that 6-7 percent range it doesn't matter if it creeps up . I was told that it just needs to be dried to the lowest point it will ever see once and then its good.  They also said they generally will put the wood in their shop for a couple weeks to acclimate before working with it. 
Brad, regarding the track and cart system. There is a removable bridge that needs to be pulled out of the way in order to open and close the door.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

Brad_bb

Kinda makes sense. I'm thinking you can get that "bound" moisture out by keeping it in conditioned space, but it's going to take a lot longer.  One of my first project a few years ago was very illustrative of this.  I built a small walnut table in the spring or summer with air dried wood in my shed.  The first winter it shrank 3/16".  In summer it grew again by about 1/8".  The next winter It shrunk 1/16".  Now seasonally it will grow and shrink about 1/32-1/16"
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

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