Constructing a walking bridge and dealing with the powers that be

[Big_eddy]

I can't help with the legal aspects, but when it comes to the bridge design, I may be able to. If your bank is solid and the stream depth rarely changes, then as said before, a 6x6 beam or two laid parallel to the stream about twice the width of the actual bridge deck provides pretty good support. If the stream level does change significantly, then you will need some protection for the bridge supports. In the case, I could add wings upstream and downstream of the beams, (think V with a flat bottom) and raise the bridge itself a couple of courses, back filled with larger stones and topped with gravel.

If the banks are soft and not solid, then you would be better served by augering a few 3'-4' deep holes on either side of the beam, and dropping in hydro pole sections as piles, then laying your 6x6 beam across the tops. Again add flood protection if the water levels rise significantly. 

Depending on the weight of your "small" skid steer and the total span, you might not need steel. I cross a 12' span with my compact backhoe (3500lb) on 6x6s regularly and the bridge is very solid.

[NE Woodburner]

Like Big_eddy, I can't help much with the legal issues but do have a suggestion for bridge design. This is a good application for the use of helical piles. They can be installed with minimal ground disturbance and can be installed with a skid steer or mini excavator outfitted with the proper attachment, which I'm assuming you could get in there. There are also portable power packs that you could use if you can't get small equipment in there. You may need the help of a design engineer to come up with the pile type and configuration. Vertical piles will support the bridge loads and sometimes piles are driven at an angle to stabilize the bridge laterally. You may be able to build pressure treated headers and wood-frame the bridge for the capacity you need. If not, steel beams or concrete could be used, but sounds like you could keep it simple and keep costs down for your needs.

Helical piles are often used for boardwalks in wet areas and small bridges. A google search will give you lots of ideas.

Good luck.

[doc henderson]

 

 

 

 

 

The above are photos from Colorado at our summer camp.  we extended a 20-foot bridge that you descended down to, and then up the other side, and it was 4 feet wide.  now 36 feet long plus approaches built up with RR ties and filled with gravel (rock from the road cutouts).  now 6 feet wide and able to let a 4-wheeler pass.  cuts a half mile off the trek to archery and rifle.  Telephone poles with a stabilizing brace across the center.  It is always muddy and has running water with almost every rain or with overflow from the lake a mile up.  It is now 4 feet above the ground.  you can see the footprint of the prev. bridge. 

[chesterspal]

Nice guidelines. However, I read the approach fill limit as a total of 250 sq-ft. It says cumulative. So, that means you can have, for example, a 5' wide x 25' long ramp on each side of your bridge. That's still a respectable length.

I don't think they mean a "ramp" as something like a wooden structure.

I read that as you can clear an area of branches and duff (stuff on the ground) up to 250 square feet (say 5' wide by 50' in total) to make access to the bridge easier.

[chesterspal]

If you are in Vermont's Forestry Current Use Program, the first place I would go is to my county forester....

A similar issue arose least year and I was told (by the VT forester) to deal with another department.

Three emails and I'm still awaiting a reply. It's only been 7 months.

I have no problem doing what's right.

I would just ask the other side to hold up their end of the bargain.

[beenthere]

My suggestion would be to move forward and within the limits of the .pdf document you found. Beg for forgiveness if anyone objects. And have the paperwork of what you have submitted to both the forester and the non-responsive department.

[John Mc]

If you are in Vermont's Forestry Current Use Program, the first place I would go is to my county forester....

A similar issue arose least year and I was told (by the VT forester) to deal with another department.

Three emails and I'm still awaiting a reply. It's only been 7 months.

I have no problem doing what's right.

I would just ask the other side to hold up their end of the bargain.

I was not figuring the forester would be the final stop, just that they would know who to talk to. I have no idea what to do about the department not responding.

There are times I wish I had take the path Beenthere suggested

[KEC]

Anyone know if Cornell Cooperative Extension might be helpful ? County Extension agents (IIRC) used to help people with building ponds and such. Seeking the right people to consult early on is often best. Many horror stories revolve around just going ahead with a project without consulting the appropriate agency. Then the nit picking starts.

[John Mc]

Anyone know if Cornell Cooperative Extension might be helpful ? County Extension agents (IIRC) used to help people with building ponds and such. Seeking the right people to consult early on is often best. Many horror stories revolve around just going ahead with a project without consulting the appropriate agency. Then the nit picking starts.

Probably not, since Chesterspal's property is in VT and the Cornell Cooperative Extension is NY.

[chesterspal]

My suggestion would be to move forward and within the limits of the .pdf document you found. Beg for forgiveness if anyone objects. And have the paperwork of what you have submitted to both the forester and the non-responsive department.

I met with the town's main zoning official this past week. Told him of my needs and showed him my bridge design. All cards on the table. He verified I was not working within a flood area (using online VT maps, etc.) and said I did not need a permit from the town for my bridge.

It was suggested I still contact the state for their blessing. That's what I did. Now I await a reply.

Winter is coming... so they say... so, I'll need to hold off doing any work. However, when the time comes and I need access on the other side, the bridge will need to go up.

Plan B:

They make these 10' by 20" wide aluminum truck ramps that can support 5,000lbs per axel.

https://www.discountramps.com/loading-ramp/auto/p/05-16-120-04/?srsltid=AfmBOopb1hEY29eS-Q5WsGlzS46d5aMIHgrxKw-bupL6fdA_JN7J1dO-uSY

These would work fine to get my skid steer on the other side. They could simply be pulled away when I'm not up there.

No permanent structure to deal with plus they can be moved to other areas I may need to access.

Any thoughts on this, should the need arise?

[John Mc]

If you are looking at removable structures, you might want to look in to temporary skidder bridges. The Vermont Dept of Forest Parks and Recreation published some designs. They first put these up about 15 years ago, but the designs have been updated.

VT FPR Temporary Skidder Bridge Plans

Some of the plans include drag bars, which makes an easy place to attach chains to drag them in and out.

[chesterspal]

If you are looking at removable structures, you might want to look in to temporary skidder bridges...

I have two of these on my land now. There when I purchased the propperty. The prior owner installed them, but he had the equipment to do so.

These are heavy, 3-beam sections that need something like a crane or excavator to move and install.
They also require access to where they need to go. I do not have that. The reason for this thread.

Anything I do going forward must be doable by me as a 70 year old, 150 pound individual.

[chesterspal]

For the loggers on this forum...

Can you explain why the prior owner of my land, a logger, created this massive pile of (junk) logs before selling the land?

Is it just common practice to create this as part of the logging process?





I now need to remove it (or move it) somehow to gain access to the section of land off in the distance. My thoughts are to rent a chipper and use the material to fill in the wet sections, as needed.

[Jeff]

Very poor plan to put mulch or sawdust in a wet area. You make it permanently wet.

[doc henderson]

how deep is the creek?  at 10 feet wide, I bet you can wrangle some temp stuff across to get to where you can build you bridge.

[chesterspal]

how deep is the creek?  at 10 feet wide, I bet you can wrangle some temp stuff across to get to where you can build you bridge.

This picture is from a different location on the property.

Does not involve my little walking bridge project.

[beenthere]

chester
Think you are going to have to make some decisions and then decide if will buy or at least rent the equipment to accomplish your job(s) ahead.

The log jam pic looks like logging slash that has washed into a massive pile from the creek rising (flash flood). A match will be your friend to burn that pile when the time is right. Either that, or wait for it to rot down. But flash flooding is one of the reasons that rules are handed down to restrict or disallow such things as logging slash and/or bridges to be across stream/creeks.

Good luck figuring out a way to get to your property. A drawing showing a map of the property outline, the location of the stream bed, and where you need to get to would help with more helpful comments. Wish you well.

[chesterspal]

The log jam pic looks like logging slash that has washed into a massive pile from the creek rising (flash flood). A match will be your friend to burn that pile when the time is right.

Some of this may have washed down from heavy rain (from the left side) but the majority of the pile was there when I purchased the property in 2023 and prior to the flooding up there in June. The stream is downhill and to the right and there are trees in between so it did not wash up from there as all logging was to the left.

More like the logger was a slob. He knew he was selling it, after he took his 10 year quota in 1 year, and could care less how he left it for the future.

My friend also suggested I contract for someone to burn it when there is snow on the ground.

...flash flooding is one of the reasons that rules are handed down to restrict or disallow such things as logging slash and/or bridges to be across stream/creeks...

Interesting you say this is not allowed. I had the VT forester for my area come and inspect the property prior to my purchase to make sure all logging work was done to their specifications. I did not want to be on the hook if it was not, later on. This never came up.

Thanks

[doc henderson]

Actually, I was back to the original point of the thread, and how to get stuff across the waterway.  Can you remind me of your goals for the property on the other side of the creek.  If goals include DIY and keeping costs low and use for recreation, that will change my thoughts and suggestions.  If you simply seek information about your legal tact, then I am done.  We all love to design, and problem solve and potentially spend your money with ideas.  Trying to help you refocus us (me) and help if we can. 

[KEC]

chesterspal, do a simple computer search for Vermont Cooperative Extension. As a landowner, they may be helpful to you.

[Ron Scott]

It looks like the logger wanted to use the logging debris to close the access to that section of property.

[John Mc]

If you are looking at removable structures, you might want to look in to temporary skidder bridges...

I have two of these on my land now. There when I purchased the propperty. The prior owner installed them, but he had the equipment to do so.

These are heavy, 3-beam sections that need something like a crane or excavator to move and install.
They also require access to where they need to go. I do not have that. The reason for this thread.

Anything I do going forward must be doable by me as a 70 year old, 150 pound individual.

When you said you had a bobcat, I figured you would use that to drag it in to place. If you can't drive through the stream to drag it in, you might be able to put a block and tackle on the other side to drag it woult having to get your Bobcat across first.

It's a simple thing to set these in if you have the equipment. Making friends with someone with an appropriate sized tractor with a front-end loader or hiring someone with that equipment would get it in place quickly and simply. You'll get better life outof anything wooden if you have some sort of footer on each side to keep it up out of the water and dirt. Some people use rote resistant wood, such as Black Locust for the footers, some use pressure treated lumber. I'll probably be doing a crossing one of these days were I use a couple of the concrete blocks (made from the leftovers that come back on the trucks after a delivery) to serve as footers for the ends of my bridge.

[doc henderson]

you could get the platform prefabbed and push it across on some beams just big enough to support the bridge platform.  shove it from one side and now can drive across and support up each end, build the on and off ramps.

build it, back it in with a car trailer and let the back cantilever part over the stream, then push or pull it off to the spot, and drive out from under it.

[stavebuyer]

For the loggers on this forum...

Can you explain why the prior owner of my land, a logger, created this massive pile of (junk) logs before selling the land?

Is it just common practice to create this as part of the logging process?





I now need to remove it (or move it) somehow to gain access to the section of land off in the distance. My thoughts are to rent a chipper and use the material to fill in the wet sections, as needed.

Thats a "slash pile". Basically, waste wood trimmed off at the yarding/loading area. Not at all unusual to see it pushed off to the side into a pile. Pushing into a stream channel would be unacceptable, but not sure the photo gives enough background to make any judgements.
A chipper would be unfeasible. Thats packed tight and probably has as much dirt as wood. If it's blocking a stream channel hire an excavator to cut a channel. Otherwise, I'd leave it to rot and go around it.

Recently cutover ground with little attention paid to reclamation or aesthetics generally sells at a steep discount. Time will fix most of it; money can speed the process.

[chesterspal]

Thanks for the continued replies to my question. Been out of town for a few days but will try and reply to thoughts posed since then.

Thats a "slash pile".... A chipper would be unfeasible. Thats packed tight and probably has as much dirt as wood. If it's blocking a stream channel hire an excavator to cut a channel. Otherwise, I'd leave it to rot and go around it.

Others have replied that wood chips make for poor wet area fill so that idea is now dead. The logger could have found a better location for the pile. It is blocking access to a major portion of my land so I will need to figure something out. I cannot get heavy machinery back there. There is another stream... really a rain run-off channel... that I'd need to bridge.


It's a simple thing to set these in if you have the equipment. Making friends with someone with an appropriate sized tractor with a front-end loader or hiring someone with that equipment would get it in place quickly and simply.

I don't have an easement to get over there and the land owner will not let me pay for one. If I had the easement, I would not need the bridge. I need to perform this task from my land with my bare hands. I have a small Bobcat. Really, it's the Melroe M371. If any of you are into this kind of thing, this link is to my machine.

https://www.skidsteerforum.com/threads/melroe-m371-mods.119483/

I can do some earth moving with it... some digging and carrying of dirt, rocks, gravel. I have forks for it. It weighs only 2,000lbs so I can easily make a bridge that will support it out of galvanized steel H beams with a wooden deck.


It looks like the logger wanted to use the logging debris to close the access to that section of property.

What a guy  >:(


Actually, I was back to the original point of the thread, and how to get stuff across the waterway.  Can you remind me of your goals for the property on the other side of the creek.  If goals include DIY and keeping costs low and use for recreation, that will change my thoughts and suggestions... 

My only use is for recreation. Camping, hiking, fishing, dirt bike riding, ATV riding, enjoying nature in all it's glory. From what I uderstand, VT has an open door policy. Anyone can use anothers land for recreational purposes (correct me if I'm wrong on this VT guys) and their ain't much you can do about it. They do offer some legal protection to land owners should someone who was not invited (i.e. trespassing) gets injured. They cannot come back and sue the owner.

I'm perfectly fine with this.