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Examining Eastern Walnut, Curly[figured]

Started by chain, February 03, 2010, 10:17:54 AM

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chain

Several years ago I attended a Walnut Association meeting and seminar in Missouri. One part of the program was discussion on Eastern Walnut  'Curly' or 'figured' veneer logs. I understood that this marbled and beautiful oddity of nature increased greatly the value of such logs. The discussion brought about the fact that a landowner must protect his interest in such a value, as most times those special quality of logs or marketed out in lump-sum bids; the landowner may never know he had such quality and monetary value in his forest.. Any discussion welcomed.

Dodgy Loner

I'm not sure the land owner could know he had a valuable curly walnut tree in his forest. I've seen curly walnut in board form, but I don't know that it's possible to identify trees in the forest with this characteristic. Maybe someone else knows of a way, but the bark of a walnut is so thick, it seems unlikely that the figure could 'telegraph' through the bark like it sometimes does with curly maple.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

chain

That was dicussed as to identifying 'curly' walnut. Just that I dislike saying things without authority from true professionals but, best I remember, it was suggested that written in to a contract the specifics of testing a log for 'curly' characteristics. Those points made were sampling upper logs of each walnut tree or observations at the mills. One statement I believe to remembered correctly was, a forester figured a veneer walnut log we were standing by, it figured nearly a $1000.00, yet if the log were of curly quality this log could be worth $5000.00. Please do not hold me on this but hope to hear from our professionals on this question. :)

Dodgy Loner

What exactly is the question ???

What you're describing seems like a very difficult thing to write into a contract, but I'd like to hear from a logger or a sawyer on this as well. Maybe someone who has experience with curly maple could provide some insight to how landowners ensure they get their proper share of the profit.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

chain

Lol, You're right, I do have difficulty in posing a question. Does curly walnut exist? What percentage of a 100,000 bf of veneer walnut may be curly? Should the  logger or sawmill have the right to claim a windfall profit from such? These questions posed, but generally thought landwoner should market walnut logs exclusively with option to have higher share of specialty profits.

Also, in this particular seminar, was reported genetic-wood scientist were trying to isolate the gene of 'curly' walnut. This report came in from Indiana.Basically, what do the pro-foresters here think about marketing curly Walnut?

pasbuild

Around my neck of the woods the contract will provide for figured logs on a percentage, it is up to the logger to look for these logs and it is in the best interest of both parties when the logger finds them as they both make more $$$

Then there is that one logger out of many that will get them out of the woods without saying a thing to the landowner.
If it can't be nailed or glued then screw it

Ron Wenrich

What about the wood that the logger buys that's supposed to be veneer but ends up not being that good of quality.  Is the landowner going to guarantee quality?  If the logger has to shoulder the risk for wood quality, why shouldn't he reap the bonus in higher priced veneer?  How about if veneer prices spike after the sale of the timber?  Should the logger give the landowner a share?  Timber is usually sold with no guarantee on quality or quantity.  

I've also seen curly birch, curly maple, curly oak and curly cherry.   Sometimes you can see it in the bark, but I'm not too sure you would see it in the walnut.  

I remember our truck driver had delivered a load of logs to a veneer yard in Maryland.  It was owned by a German outfit.  He said there was a log there that was worth $50,000.  It was 51" at the end of 15'.  The growth rings were perfectly spaced.  I suspect the trucker has a hearing problem.   :D  But, there are some highly valued logs, but they are a rarity.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

chain

What is good for the goose..is good for the gander? One way to resolve the fairness issue, is to bid off grade or veneer logs on property. This being done more and more it seems with white oak here. Buyers invited to come in and bid the yard; owner/logger split $$ on previous agreement 50/50 etc.

I know the golden rule foresters stress to forest-owners.."Know what you have to sell" :P

Ironwood

First, I try hard to find the gems. Curly walnut is EXTREMELY difficult to see and predict (even if it is visible in say a splintered piece or upper). Perhaps the only equally difficult thing for ME to find/ predict is high quality consistant Gum Stained cherry.  I am w/ Ron on this from a lumber/ logger perspective. They gotta play the averages, they loose some, they win some. Like he said, is anyone gonna guarentee the ones that are bust? I have cut ALOT of walnut and it is always a question mark. Even the ones that look potentially to be curly are many times not. FYI.

Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

Ron Wenrich

How are they bidding off only certain logs?  Are they having a logger come in and log the property, then sell the logs?   You wouldn't need a logger at that point, merely log buyers.

I know of a few consultants that tried to do this.  All went bust as most foresters aren't knowledgeable about the various forest products.  Many loggers don't want to log like this as the money is made in the marketing of material.  Many of the log buyers won't bid on logs, as they can buy all they want at set prices.

I think the landowner is in a jam on this process.  They are merely a provider of a resource and have no control of the processing downstream.  They are selling a commodity, largely on outward appearances.  The buyer speculates on the inside of those trees.  Good loggers have the experience and sawyers are a better judge than most loggers.  Foresters have even less experience at judging log quality.  Most have sold timber, and very few have ever bought logs.  A big difference. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

SwampDonkey

No mill or their buyers around these parts buy logs on speculation of quality with the tree standing on the stump. A buyer is not even interested in coming unless the logs are at least tree length in a yard and spread out to role, buck and scale. The rolling and bucking in done  by the logger, owner or marketing board staff. It isn't their job to do the bucking of someones logs, they are only buyers. I know curly maple is fairly common, and often it's only in the first four feet of the but log, which doesn't cut the mustard. Same with birdseye, if those eyes don't follow a ray into the heart of the log and the heart isn't small, then she goes for a low grade log or into the grinder. A red maple log alone without figure is not high value in these parts. Only sugar maple with small heart and yellow birch demand good prices. That's just a for instance. Walnut grade seems to be different than other hardwood.

One logger told me if the land owner wants to come out here and do the bucking and searching for those gems, he's welcome to it. The only time I see that is when the owner hires the logger, not when the timber is sold by stumpage to a logger and let to go about his business. We don't have large volumes of quality hardwood on most woodlots, been high graded so much. Our marketing boards market very small volumes of hardwood logs and veneer, it isn't out there. Most woodlots have small diameter hardwood averaging 8-10" in diameter, and 10" average is higher than the norm.

Also, in regards to marketing of logs the specs are often a moving target. Depends on how bad the mill or buyer needs the logs. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

chain

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on February 04, 2010, 06:00:21 AM
How are they bidding off only certain logs?  Are they having a logger come in and log the property, then sell the logs?   You wouldn't need a logger at that point, merely log buyers.

I know of a few consultants that tried to do this.  All went bust as most foresters aren't knowledgeable about the various forest products.  Many loggers don't want to log like this as the money is made in the marketing of material.  Many of the log buyers won't bid on logs, as they can buy all they want at set prices.

I think the landowner is in a jam on this process.  They are merely a provider of a resource and have no control of the processing downstream.  They are selling a commodity, largely on outward appearances.  The buyer speculates on the inside of those trees.  Good loggers have the experience and sawyers are a better judge than most loggers.  Foresters have even less experience at judging log quality.  Most have sold timber, and very few have ever bought logs.  A big difference. 
Buyers come in from various interested mills, some from Mo.., Ky, Il. Last cutting we had before the Oak flooring/export market sank the reps came out to our property where grade logs were rolled and measured and gross bid, the bid-winning mill hauled the logs, good for logger, great for landowner! I received a log report from mill of price and bf. doyle scale.

Ron Wenrich

How did your gross bid work?  Did you put them in lots or was there a big pile of logs?  Did the buyers pick and choose?  What happened to the low grade and off species?

If you have a system that works, then you're ahead of what we have in my area.  Something like that would not work as there are too many landowners with timber and too many loggers with logs to interest buyers bidding on logs. 

If landowners had a concentration yard, then I could see it working better. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

chain

First off, I don't believe there is a perfect system, possibly if the owner of the timber is his own logger. The sales I've related to were paid by the 1000bf...generally. Chip-wood paid by tonnage. The below grades were taken to pallet mills and weighed and converted to bf. Some tie logs and a few stave logs were trucked out to respective mills. You see, this was not a 'lump-sum' sale. Trust with our logger is the priority. Grade logs were grouped by species, placed on property log yard for bidding. Of course in lump sum you may have several loggers bidding on an estimated amount of marked timber, here is where you forfeit any specialty logs and must be satisifed with winning bid. Our long time relationship with our loggers has resulted in more income, less chance of the logger to get hurt financially when timber runs bad when selling by 1000bf.

jrdwyer

Most consulting foresters in this area (myself included) sell by lump-sum with full payment before any trees are cut. Sealed bidding is the most common sale process, but negotiated sales are also done where the consulting forester sets the price based on what for is for sale by volume, quality, etc. and also using recent comparables for valuation.

Lump sum sales shift the risk to the buyer, which is a good thing for the landowner. Risk for the buyer is lessened by having the forester accurately mark and measure or cruise the timber for sale. Buyers who are most experienced with the timber being sold in a given area can generally be the most aggressive with bids (assuming that they have good markets and the capital to buy).

Foresters with experience know when the bids are great, average, or poor and tell their clients this important relative information. Sometimes landowners decide to hold off on selling and just pay the forester for his or her time. Other times,  the landowner may request that the forester try to achieve a higher price through negotiation after a sealed bidding process. I have had success upping the price, but I also have had sales where the market said NO.

What the others have said is generally true, that is, the buyers have to play the averages. For example, I sold a tract of beautiful black walnut timber last year that had x amount of 4sc potential veneer, x amount of 3sc veneer, x amount of walnut lumber, etc. Walnut veneer quality timber is not an easy thing to appraise. In 2008, Indiana prices of walnut veneer logs delivered varied from $1-$20/bf, depending on size and grade. I stuck to the averages with my pre-sale appraisal for my client, and thankfully, the highest sealed bid came out just slightly above my numbers. Other less experienced timber buyers were surprised by the strong price the high bidder put on this timber in February 2009. The timber has since been cut and the buyer was happy with both his and my estimate of the walnut and how it cut out. The landowners also got a great price for their timber. The forest is being managed and there will be excellent timber in this stand for another selective harvest 15-20 years down the road.

There are few to no scientific studies comparing net landowner income from lump-sum/sealed bid versus cutting on the shares in hardwood timber. Indiana does publish a delivered log price report and a timber price report based on delivered log prices. In addition, a consulting foresters sales price report is also published. These reports are 6 months old when they get published, but they do show a significant difference between what a landowner receives selling lump-sum/sealed bid with a consulting forester versus selling logs at current delivered market prices. For example, during the 2008 period, the price on the stump using published log prices and a very competitive price for cutting and hauling netted the landowner $.27/b.f for average timber and $.48/b.f. for high quality timber. During the same period, the average stumpage price reported from consulting foresters in Indiana for average timber was $.38/b.f. and $.59/b.f. for high quality timber. Even taking out the forester's commission, the average landowner still netted more going the lump sum/sealed bid route using the skills of the forester.

I mention all of this because I want any landowner reading this forum to know that selling timber can be very profitable if done correctly. Most consulting foresters fit the bill for landowners seeking someone to both sell their timber and manage their forest.




SwampDonkey

I can say also, I have seen land owners get more out of their timber by using a forester, even if it's pulpwood, then letting the logger do as he pleases. At the marketing board the commission was only $3 a cord plus 2.2% levy and all private wood goes through the marketing boards by law as well as require a load slip to haul it legally on the highway. Sometimes the loggers will get desperate in depressed markets that they outbid themselves into bankruptcy just to keep the cash flowing. A forester would advise the owner to hold off until the market recovers. But sometimes the landowner is cutting out of desperation for cash as in inheritance taxes which can be devastating because the old man never had foresite to get his paperwork in order before his passing. Many times the property could be a partnership between two elderly brothers who can't agree on dividing the woodlot up between them to leave to family members. I've seen quite a few woodlots that end up with 5 or 6 siblings or a dozen cousins that all want a piece. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Texas Ranger

Having worked a little in the sales of walnut, all I can add is "Amen" to the previous foresters posts.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

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