How tall to leave stump to push up the roots

[livemusic]

Friend is giving me some mature hardwoods for firewood, he is building a pond. Most are 20" to 25" hickory, red oak, white oak. I didn't measure or look closely, might be a few larger, not sure. He mentioned just letting the equipment operator (dozer or trackhoe, not sure) push them over so he can have the root balls to make fish habitat in the pond but I would rather fell them. There is no underbrush and it sure would be good felling practice! Plus, if they are pushed over, I would think it's going to tear up the trunk some but maybe that is of no concern. But if I fell them leaving a waist-high stump, is that sufficient for pushing or must I leave a taller stump? The operator is not there for several days, can't ask him.

[barbender]

If you are just using them for firewood, let them push them over. It makes it way easier for the machines to do the work. You will have to be very careful cutting the root balls loose, though.

[livemusic]

If you are just using them for firewood, let them push them over. It makes it way easier for the machines to do the work. You will have to be very careful cutting the root balls loose, though.

Yes, I get it but this is certainly an opportunity for felling practice, not a thing in the way! I am no expert, been using a saw for several years but that's it. Seems like a good opportunity to fell, that was my thought. Plus, the owner doesn't care, he's laidback. But he does want rootballs.

[stavebuyer]

The weight of the tree provides a great deal of force via leverage to aid in pulling out the stump instead of digging or pushing. The felling, while great practice, is going to cost either the landowner or contractor significant extra machine hours.

[Southside]

The weight and height sure make it easier. I hooked a tree with my offset disc this fall behind a 300 HP tractor. Boy those come down in a hurry, unfortunately they come down in the direction of travel too made for a tense moment, but the disc frame deflected it. 

[kantuckid]

This past few years of torrential, 100 year rains in my area coupled with rain-ice-snow tree falls has provided me more practice than I wanted with rootballs. They can be scary indeed! I have a mature White Oak ~ 24-30" dia that grew on the edge of a deep drain crevice on fairly steep adjoining sloped ground. The root ball since it toppled is about 10-12'. The tree lays across the crevice and the top is approachable on foot as is the base root ball. The danger involved is real indeed as the entire tree can decide to rotate downhill when a cut releases weight or tension. I ride by this tree every time I'm in my upper woods area and it's still laying there untouched! Scary indeed! If I knew my 6,000 lb tractor would hold the tree butt back, I'd have chained it up and already laid into it. My current plan FWIW is to chain it off top and bottom before a cuts made. 

If your friends trees are going to be on reasonably level ground, then I'd go for them after the contractor does his thing.

 A US Hwy 460 widening project near me does that everyday by pushing over then pulling the trees downhill with a large dozer then loggers working the trees on the level into sawlogs or burn piles. Another road job I drive by often is on a much larger scale, the KY Mountain Parkway, lane addition project. The hills there are even higher & steeper and logging crews cut most all those trees, as they're smallish pole sized hardwoods mostly as tornado knocked down the big ones in 2012.  

[livemusic]

FWIW, the landowner is getting some free firewood out of this and many are saying I am nuts to even do it with giving him some wood. As in, I should get all the wood. Because it will be a ton of work. And as for root balls and resulting holes, if they are not perfect, it's not really a concern, all he is going to do is put them in a pile for fish habitat which will be, obviously, be underwater. I recall now that I saw a big trackhoe there, I would think he could dig up a stump in a few swipes.

It would also be safer for me to fell the trees, seems to me. At least, some of them. I have taken some windblown trees before and, yep, those rootballs can be a bit dangerous.

[mike_belben]

Trackhoe meaning excavator and not crawler loader, right?  


Tires, cinder blocks and tree tops are also excellent fish structure. And theyre all good for snagging lures. 

[livemusic]

Trackhoe meaning excavator and not crawler loader, right?  


Tires, cinder blocks and tree tops are also excellent fish structure. And theyre all good for snagging lures.

Yes.
He has about a dozen big pyramids of cinder blocks about eight feet high each built in the pond basin. I've never seen that. Makes sense for fish to hide in there.

[mike_belben]

A big excavator will still stump pretty well without the pole attached.  A crawler loader really needs the trunk to pop stumps without making huge moon craters from a 7ft wide bucket dugging them up from all sides.  

  Leave them knee high for the thumb to grab and rock the root ball out. 

[bannerd]

If he is looking for the root balls I would just get a massive excavator to push them over.  If you can't get anything like that to the job site then a backhoe can do a fine job with a come along.  Ladder up the tree and tie the cable for leverage, us a snatch block to get the direction you want, keep pressure on the tree with while digging around the opposite side of the cable.  The weight of the tree will win every time.  Just make sure you have a change in direction because you don't want that tree falling on you OR the cable breaking and coming towards you.

Either way, I would still vote for a a large excavator, it's effective and will save time.

[btulloh]

He could go buy a couple hundred lures and baits, dump them all in the lake and just skip the whole rootball habitat thing. 

[Dom]

Unless you can convince the land owner to cut them while standing, I would likely pass on this.

I think it would be a pain to cut them when all pushed over, and likely dangerous if they are all in 1 pile.

[HemlockKing]

Unless you can convince the land owner to cut them while standing, I would likely pass on this.

I think it would be a pain to cut them when all pushed over, and likely dangerous if they are all in 1 pile.

Yeah I'm with ya on this, would cut them down and leave atleast up to knee height stump but can't hurt to go more for even more leverage for the machine to wedge loose

[beenthere]

Recently watched a good video of using an excavator to remove stumps. 
Ripping Out The Big Stumps On The New Pond Build - YouTube

Shows using a bucket and a root ripper on stumps he is clearing for a pond. In another video shows placing some large stumps back in the bottom of the pond for fish habitat at 8:45 in this one.

Time To Shape This New Pond Up! - YouTube

[mike_belben]

You ought to see what a big stump shear can do.  Its like snip snip snip and rake, theyre out. 

[beenthere]

Give a link to what you are thinking of as a "big stump shear".  interested to see it.

Or is it like this?
Removing A Tree Stump With Excavator / Machines Tree Stump Removal / Excavator Stump Shear - YouTube

[TroyC]

Had same issue last month. My neighbor brought his D6 dozer over to push down a dozen pines for me. He did not want me to cut them down first. About 4 of them were close to 22-24" at the stump. He had to dig down a couple feet in front of those trees with the blade to break the roots. He had to hit a couple a few times but they all went over. The smaller (less than 20") trees he just pushed them over with the blade about 2' off the ground.

I delimbed and bucked trees for the mill. Cut the stumps as close to root ball as I could. Haven't milled them yet so don't know if they were damaged in pushing over.



 

 

 

 

 

 

[John Mc]

If I were my own property, I do it how I wanted it done. If my way cost the excavator more time, I would expect to pay him for that extra time (and I'd probably take that into account when deciding whether "my way" was really the way I want to go).

If it's not my property, I would ask the person doing the stump excavating before felling the trees. He knows his equipment and will have an idea of whether felling them first is just making more hassle for him.

[Southside]

I will say you can almost always tell when someone used an excavator to harvest a tree about the time the logs hit the sawmill, at least the guys who think it's a great idea to reach up as far as the shovel will go and commence to pushing.  The insides of the logs look like a hurricane log.  

[DaleK]

I would never fell trees before an excavator again, it costs at least twice as much and leaves twice the hole. Any decent excavator operator will line the bigger trees up for you instead of leaving them tangled, if you ask nicely he'll likely spend an hour or two with the hoe lifting the trunks to let you cut the root balls off safely before he packs it in

[livemusic]

I would never fell trees before an excavator again, it costs at least twice as much and leaves twice the hole. Any decent excavator operator will line the bigger trees up for you instead of leaving them tangled, if you ask nicely he'll likely spend an hour or two with the hoe lifting the trunks to let you cut the root balls off safely before he packs it in

I am going to see them (2 excavators are there) in the morning and will discuss. The landowner came out today and said he wanted them to push them over so he has big root balls for fish habitat. Later, he said he would go back and ask them if I could cut the stems because he first said they were going to smash the rootballs off and I wasn't too keen on buggering up the trees if there is another option (me!), lol. It would be awesome if they would lift the trees for me to cut.
I only felled two trees, a 16" hickory and a 14" red maple. The landowner knew I was going to start today and that's what I got done. Worked my fanny getting that bucked and hauled out in a few hours, lol. Sheesh, will certainly be a job! Landowner said he marked 20 trees for me for them to push down.

[TroyC]

When mine were pushed over, I had already figured where I wanted them to fall. I used orange marker paint and put a line on tree so the dozer could line up with it. Be sure they loosen the root ball completely from the ground.



Note curl cylinders. That is why you have the dozer completely break the root balls out.
Took less than 45 minutes to push all 12-13 trees over. 2-3 hours to limb and buck, another 3 hrs to stack stems and clean up limbs. Couple hours with the boxblade and shed area is almost ready. (Still waiting on replacement cylinders, supply chain bottleneck! :D)

[Runningalucas]

When mine were pushed over, I had already figured where I wanted them to fall. I used orange marker paint and put a line on tree so the dozer could line up with it. Be sure they loosen the root ball completely from the ground.



Note curl cylinders. That is why you have the dozer completely break the root balls out.
Took less than 45 minutes to push all 12-13 trees over. 2-3 hours to limb and buck, another 3 hrs to stack stems and clean up limbs. Couple hours with the boxblade and shed area is almost ready. (Still waiting on replacement cylinders, supply chain bottleneck! :D)

Those rams are toast, or I guess a comparison to spaghetti would be better, lol 

[mike_belben]

stumping is among the most brutal things you can do to a machine. never underestimate a stumps will to stay put.  


i let them rot a few years now before even trying if at all possible. 

[TxTIG]

I didn't have a very big excavator and depending upon the species it would have been nearly impossible to get the stumps out from some of the bigger hardwoods.  Second photo was a huge pecan (wished the owner didn't want it out of the way as it was a beautiful tree) that took all day to bring down.  Limbs on the excavator side cut off, trenched around the tree about 6 ft. deep and had to use the dozer pulling and the excavator pushing.  Most of the time I could just dig a swipe or two on each side and push the tree over.  Job was clearing out 250 acres; took over 6 months.  Given the choice I would rather push the entire tree over vs. trying to dig the stump.



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[SwampDonkey]

Cut them down first. A strong heavy excavator will remove stumps in a hurry, shake them a bit, and drop them in a dump truck, or piles. A good sized machine with a good operator is very efficient, an under sized machine is nothing but a PITA. ;D The hrs thing comes down to machine size and man behind the controls. I've seen guys do a job in one day that some 'hour padder' takes 4 to do. :

[aigheadish]

It doesn't look like I'm going to add much other than saying the size of the machine to handle the stumps makes a bit difference. I'm about to cut down a black cherry but I've learned that if I cut it quite high I can usually get the stump out pretty easily with the backhoe. Digging out the roots (at least with my backhoe) usually leaves a much bigger hole than knocking it over. A decent sized excavator will make short work of any of the stumps. I think you should talk to the land owner and the equipment operator, you may be able to talk them into the best of both worlds.

[chevytaHOE5674]

I don't care what size machine they use, it is 99% of the time faster to get the stump out with tree attached. Once the weight of the top gets over center it has more leverage on the stump than any machine can apply. 

[SwampDonkey]

I agree with the leverage being better from the tree trunk being attached. No disputing that fact. ;D

More efficient land clearing? Nope! Unless the wood is treated as just trash pushed up into piles to dispose of. I come from a different world, that wood offsets my land clearing bill. The difference between $1800/acre or $3000/acre on timbered land.  Those are numbers up here, lots of loggers who run land clearing businesses. I know of no landowner giving away wood.

What will save you from making craters, is a machine capable of severing the laterals. I've had several yard trees stumped, just stump before removal. No huge craters and some hardwood stumps where 40" across. Spruce is even easier than maple stumps. The day I had a 30 foot high house and out building tore down, filled in as well as 2 cesspools, and 12 yard stumps pulled, they were done and gone before 3 hrs was up.

The state when done.




The brush in the back is my work, not the clearing company. It is my snow fence, and works great. They asked if I wanted it removed, I said no way.



And I had them remove the asphalt on that drive way to boot.

I know another guy where that job would take 4 to 5 days.

I felled the trees and cut all the firewood I could get out of it before hand, 6 cords to heat the new house the first winter. That's $1800 in my pocket for heat. The wood cut'n and slash burning I did was not even a week in April when nothing else was going on. The brush burning was no more than a day, big pile just keep pushing it in from the sides. Gone and done.

[Ed_K]

 @livemusic tell the land owner that brush piles make great fish habitat too.

[livemusic]

Ok, the first day, (landowner knew I was starting) I got a couple of trees felled and hauled away. Not huge ones. The next day, the landowner had them push all the trees over. I dunno exactly how many but it's 20-30 mature oaks. If I had to guess, I would say 22" DBH is fair and a 22" tree gives one cord of firewood, so it's 20-30 cords. Or more, because some of them are 30+ inches. So, a ton of work ahead.

The landowner wants the root balls for fish habitat. A problem with all of this is that the trees are scattered over 3-4 acres and, in parts, it's a bit mushy and I don't have a 4wd truck. No way am I going off the access road, which is nothing but dirt. In fact, supposed to get a 1" rain tomorrow and if the rains set in, it's over. Good news is that the landowner told the operator to do whatever I need. They agreed to bring some of the trees over to the main access road, which is dirt, but it's in good shape. I figured they could just lay them by the road and if I get in on the road, I can buck and haul.

They also agreed to snip off the limbs wherever I wish, if I wish. Some of the limbs are big, so, that's firewood and I hate to waste it but I'm open to whatever, as the trunk is the main thing. Also, since the landowner wants the root balls, what to do? I need to cut them off. Do you think I should do this with them laying down on the ground or what if they raise up the entire tree and I cut it? Is that doable safely, less safe or what? I know root balls can be dangerous, I am fully aware of that. But the trees will be in the open. The operators will do whatever I wish, with the landowner's sanction, to get these trees to where I can (eventually) get them out. Of course, this will take many a day to buck and haul. This is quite a project!

My biggest saw is a ported Stihl ms362 with 25" bar. Also have a ported Husky 346 with 18" bar. And others, lol.

I'd say it's 150 to 300 yards for most of the trees from where they lay to a decent resting spot by the access road.

They have two excavators still there, a John Deere and I think a Komatsu. I showed a pic to a friend who is an operator and he indicated they are not big but they looked big to me, lol. Whatever they are, the operators said they could pick up those trees no problem. Also a 750K John Deere dozer.

A number of the tree stems have dirt on them, ugh. I bought a deck brush, lol. Plus studied up on plunge cut bucking to throw chips such that dirt doesn't hit bar.

Pic is just one of the trees.

 

[mike_belben]

Boy that guy must not need money. You really lucked out.  Try not to be in the way or slow them down too much.  


Cutting off root balls on the ground is positively gonna teach you about pinched bars.  Have an extra saw and have the tools to take off your powerhead. And a hatchet for whe  you have two saws stuck in one log.  Have wedges, a beater and a good bar or pipe or cant hook for wrestling pucks out of the lineup.  

 keep your kerfs from pinching your saw by pounding in a wedge or two once itll clear the saw.   Expect the log to come after your toes and pinch the bar when you sever the cut.  It will move fast. Always wise to pile limbs under the log so it stays up off the ground when free of the stump.

That guy is giving you a good amount of $$ in wood so i hope you do something nice for him or his wife etc in return.

[Southside]

Be aware too that those excavators just might get to bouncing around when that root ball breaks off if they are holding the tree off the ground.  I'm not so sure I would try and cut the rootball off as my first cut.  Assuming the shovel is holding the tree it might be a lot easier and safer to knock the top off first, then something in the middle, then finish off with severing the ball.  Since your buddy said they are not big shovels you want to reduce the leverage advantage those trees and root balls have.  I bet that tree in the picture weighs north of 15,000 lbs with the root ball on it.  

[csmall61]

I have a Komatsu PC300LC-5 (70,000#) excavator, with 4 ft wide curved rate and hyd. thumb.

With this equipment I can pick-up the trunk level with the ground and have total control of the tree, but the bottom of the root ball is still on the ground.  Then based on the shape of the root ball decide the safest side to cut from.   You will need a long enough chainsaw bar for a single cut (no cutting from both sides).  Cut a 1/3rd of the way through the trunk, then drive in two wedges in the top center of the log, then finish the cut watching the saw cut gap to make sure the stump is not twisting toward you.  I have cut hundreds of large post oaks this way with no issues with pinching.  The wedges let the bar exit the cut without pinching.

If the excavators just have regulator dirt buckets, do not attempt to do the above.  A dirt bucket and thumb can't control the log well enough when the root ball is severed.

The next best option, based on the picture you provided, would be to saw the root balls and tops of the trees as they lay, then have the excavators move the logs to the location you want.

If you saw the root ball as they lay, it will be way safer to have a long enough bar to make one cut and the wedges will help keep the bar from pinching.

Just remember, the root ball will move before the cut if finished, so pay attention.

    

[beenthere]

Cut off the rootball from the topped log and have them move the logs to the roadside. 
True as Southside said, cutting off the rootball will give you lots of experience figuring out the tension and compression points. 
Wedges and being aware of your cut spacing (kerf) at all times will be important. 
But it can be done, and looks to be your best bet to get those logs out. 

[SwampDonkey]

I cut the limbs off first just like a blow down. You make sure that machine, if he lifts the trunk, that it is slightly off the ground and held so it does not roll off the machine. And a few feet from the root ball. And you be sure your on the machine side of it in case the trunk decides to come at you off that machine. The root ball will be heavier on the root end. If the trunk is just slightly off the ground, roots on the ground, it isn't going to have the momentum to roll, just flop away. Them lateral roots are like limbs, will kill the roll factor.

[livemusic]

I went out at daylight to try to beat the rain and get something done, but mostly take my John Deere Gator side-by-side to leave it out there so I can at least get some bucking done down the way if the site is too muddy. I managed to get one tree done. First time, I put my saw in the top in what I thought was top bind, it bound SO quickly, I mean, heck, I had no time to react, it just pinched. What the heck? I got it out with another saw but this happened to me a couple days ago on the first tree I did. The bar doesn't even time to get in but a couple inches. What's up with that? It's under so much tension there that I just cannot cut ANY from the top? Oh well, I got that one done reasonably well. I do have wedges but I had no time.

I took a pic of the excavator buckets. One looks like a dirt bucket and the grapple type is for logs? I don't know what both are, but one of these is a John Deere 250G, whatever that is. Pic attached. (I told my buddy it's a 250G just now and he said it's decent size.)

Once again, if anyone has insight on how to buck the root balls off with the excavator picking the tree up, I'm reading and pondering all of this closely. If it's simple to do it with the machine, that's good but if it's not, I don't want to be in a hurry and would rather limb and cut the root ball with it on the ground. Whatever is easiest, safest.

Whomever asked... yes, the landowner is getting something... firewood. Although, plenty of people say I should get it all free because I am doing him a favor. But he'll just pile the logs and burn them, already has burned no telling how many. Some say he should be paying me! He wanted "three or four cords" but I told him that is too much, it's a mountain of work ahead for me! That I would be fair. He will only burn 1/2 cord to 1 cord a year. (I'm betting 1/2 cord, just ambience fires, he doesn't heat, and it's a 2nd home at this tract, not his main home.) I figure I could do a 90/10 split and I think that's too high, actually. If I get 20 cords out of there, he gets two. And I am splitting and stacking for him. He does not do manual labor, lol. Oh well, I have been longing to get way ahead on wood (I sell some) and this will do it. The goal and hope is that I can do it when I can get to it (over this winter) and that is why I would like the logs pulled near the road!

Thanks for all this advice.

[mike_belben]

I dont mean to hurt your feelings but you better get smart quick or this game is gonna injure or kill you.  Logs roll and crush limbs when playing in tops.  Theyll trap you, trip you or throw you ontop a running saw.  


If tension and compression in a limb arent clear to you, then you need to start at the other end or force the limb to show its hand.   Cut shallow slits like fish gills until you see something relax.  This will show you the force lurking within and allow you to cut on the side where the kerf will open instead of close. Remove small pie cuts and whittle like a beaver if it isnt going right.  10 more seconds of cutting beats an hour on getting unstuck or a day wasted looking for a new bar in stock.

You got chaps and a helmet with screen and muffs?  You got a phone on you and someone who knows where you are?   Keep a piece of string in your pocket for a tourniquet and first aid kit on the sxs.

[Skeans1]

I went out at daylight to try to beat the rain and get something done, but mostly take my John Deere Gator side-by-side to leave it out there so I can at least get some bucking done down the way if the site is too muddy. I managed to get one tree done. First time, I put my saw in the top in what I thought was top bind, it bound SO quickly, I mean, heck, I had no time to react, it just pinched. What the heck? I got it out with another saw but this happened to me a couple days ago on the first tree I did. The bar doesn't even time to get in but a couple inches. What's up with that? It's under so much tension there that I just cannot cut ANY from the top? Oh well, I got that one done reasonably well. I do have wedges but I had no time.

I took a pic of the excavator buckets. One looks like a dirt bucket and the grapple type is for logs? I don't know what both are, but one of these is a John Deere 250G, whatever that is. Pic attached. (I told my buddy it's a 250G just now and he said it's decent size.)

Once again, if anyone has insight on how to buck the root balls off with the excavator picking the tree up, I'm reading and pondering all of this closely. If it's simple to do it with the machine, that's good but if it's not, I don't want to be in a hurry and would rather limb and cut the root ball with it on the ground. Whatever is easiest, safest.

Whomever asked... yes, the landowner is getting something... firewood. Although, plenty of people say I should get it all free because I am doing him a favor. But he'll just pile the logs and burn them, already has burned no telling how many. Some say he should be paying me! He wanted "three or four cords" but I told him that is too much, it's a mountain of work ahead for me! That I would be fair. He will only burn 1/2 cord to 1 cord a year. (I'm betting 1/2 cord, just ambience fires, he doesn't heat, and it's a 2nd home at this tract, not his main home.) I figure I could do a 90/10 split and I think that's too high, actually. If I get 20 cords out of there, he gets two. And I am splitting and stacking for him. He does not do manual labor, lol. Oh well, I have been longing to get way ahead on wood (I sell some) and this will do it. The goal and hope is that I can do it when I can get to it (over this winter) and that is why I would like the logs pulled near the road!

Thanks for all this advice.

Those aren't log grapples that's a thumb and a set of concrete grapples that'll make for a fun day for the operator. Truth be told it's blow down now, buck it off the stump first, start on your compression side with a face so stuff has room well you cut your tension wood.

[csmall61]

The picture you provided of the excavators, the john deere excavator has a dirt bucket, it is useless for trying to hold trees with.  The komatsu has a Rockland stump bucket and narrow thumb.  I have one of those buckets and it is great for digging root balls after felling the tree, but it is also useless for holding the tree (to narrow).

Your best bet, as Skeans suggested, is not to move the trees from where they were felled and to cut root ball of first and then top the log.

[livemusic]

I dont mean to hurt your feelings but you better get smart quick or this game is gonna injure or kill you.  Logs roll and crush limbs when playing in tops.  Theyll trap you, trip you or throw you ontop a running saw.  


If tension and compression in a limb arent clear to you, then you need to start at the other end or force the limb to show its hand.   Cut shallow slits like fish gills until you see something relax.  This will show you the force lurking within and allow you to cut on the side where the kerf will open instead of close. Remove small pie cuts and whittle like a beaver if it isnt going right.  10 more seconds of cutting beats an hour on getting unstuck or a day wasted looking for a new bar in stock.

You got chaps and a helmet with screen and muffs?  You got a phone on you and someone who knows where you are?   Keep a piece of string in your pocket for a tourniquet and first aid kit on the sxs.

I am certainly not experienced like guys on here but I have bucked many trees over the past several years including probably a couple dozen blowdowns over the years and I've always pulled it off. I have full safety gear, helmet, ear protection, safety glasses, face shield, chainsaw gloves, chaps, high-dollar chainsaw boots, bleed gear and first aid kit. Which is way more 'stuff' than most that I see, including people who make a living at it. I've watched countless hours of youtube videos including those made by universities and forestry organizations. I certainly do my homework.

You provided your cautions, and I always enjoy your posts, Mike, you know what you're talking about yet in this very thread, it's been stated that pinching your saw is common. So, I don't feel like I am some idiot in the woods going crazy with a saw. And I made this thread seeking more knowledge. One thing I have learned... if you ask ten loggers how to cut a tree, you might not get ten answers but you will get a bunch! So, I just constantly dig and learn and, hopefully, all will be well. I am constantly vigilant to NOT get hurt because that is the last thing I want because I only do this because I like it and it keeps me active. I don't need the money.

Your statement "Logs roll and crush limbs when playing in tops.  They'll trap you, trip you or throw you on top a running saw" is what keeps me ever-vigilant for trying to stay safe. You are so right on with that! Even a few days ago, I was about to fell a tree, had a helper with me, and after analyzing the tree and surroundings for several minutes and clearing my escape path, just before I made the first cut, I backed off and told the guy it isn't worth it, I am leaving this one alone. I spotted one small bit of evidence of rot and was leery of it doing something unpredictable.

[mike_belben]

Im not out to pick on you bill.

All that safety stuff is great.   Doing everything to avoid a fatal mistake is even greater.  So its simple- just use both rules.  

Rule 1, dont make mistakes
Rule 2, wear your gear


Rule 3, see Rule 1. If you break rule 1, lets hope rule 2 softens the blow.
Rule 4, if youve gotta make a mistake make a small one.  

I know these are silly i just made them up to illustrate a mentality that has kept me alive doing lots of stupid industrial things to get it done. 

dont take too much comfort in the gear.  Stay uneasy around loaded limbs and ask them what they will do, dont try to tell them.  They have a lot of willpower.

Stay safe and best of luck.  

[livemusic]

Loaded, springy limbs and saplings are SO dangerous. They may not be fatal but they sure can whop you good. And yesterday, I was glad I had my hardhat on because a limb fell from above that I never saw while cutting a little hand size maple. Landed right on my head!

[mike_belben]

My favorite is when the smallest little branch tip in a whole forest whips me under the screen on the lip or in the eye and i curse its unholy name with a bunch of foul expletives ..all teary eyed or fat lipped.