Best advice on winter logging

[concretecutter]

Hi guys on here reading a lot, there's a ton of great information.

I currently run an excavating bussiness I started 5 years ago, I would say I am staying afloat at that. Market is getting saturated with every other kid thinking they can run a machine, but I chase the technical stuff that a lot of others don't have experience at.

Winters are tuff here in northern Wisconsin not much to do to make any money or stay busy.
I've played with cable skidders and now I have a Clark 666c that I'm rebuilding completely.

What equipment would you buy if you had $80,000 to play with to be the most efficient and profitable.

CTL and a forwarder?
Not finding anything decent for a proccesor and forwarder that fits my budget, that's not super high hours.

Or

Feller buncher, skidder, slasher?
I'm leaning towards this route, because I could chase bigger timber in return filling trucks faster.

Winter time will be the only time I would be logging 4 months out of the year at most.

Good timber short drags older grapple skidder, tracked feller buncher, and a slasher. Two guys running how many cord a day should be expected?

[mike_belben]

I would spend that money on snow removal or firewood equipment personally.

Your excavating business has a certain format.  You show up to a customer that knows he is gonna pay you.  He swears its 'just a little job' to try to minimize the damage.  He wants minimum bill for a big job. When you switch to logging your customer knows you pay him, and he swears he has great timber even when he cant tell his ash from his elbow. He wants top dollar for his twisty pecker poles. Oh and dont leave a mess, or ruts, or calk up the driveway or go onto the neighbors but yeah i swear this old fence is my boundary line. 

In excavating you decide what you will work for and if that customer says no you knock on the next of a million doors.  In logging the mill tells you what it pays and if you dont like it the next door might be 50 or 100 miles away offering even less money. 

Low grade logging is basically like being a scrapper except you deal in wood not metal.  Either way you drive in and take what they give, no discussions.  The smart full time scrappers disguise themselves as yard cleanups guys and charge to haul off the metal (and mountains of trash) theyre turning in for scrap.  Ive worked for scrap yards and those were the customers making money.  The most successful one partnered with the scrap yard to rent a 30yd garbage dumpster so he hauled trash and metal to the same place end of every day.

That guy had a 3 man crew and a guaranteed check to pay for them because of the trash, not the scrap. He did like 3-5k a week just in scrap plus his removal fee. He didnt depend on scrap checks, it was just free money. Not so in logging.

Its common place among homeowners to hear of 2 things.  Big jackpot timber checks from a friend of a coworkers neighbors babysitter.. and of loggers ripping off customers.  Not paying for every load, not bringing back every check.  So the landowner narrative when they see a lackluster check for their lackluster wood is against a logger even if the logger is actually pretty good.  We dont hear too much hate for tree service and landclearers as long as they do what they said theyd do for the price they said theyd do it for. the customer always gets billed and they always hauls off the wood. Its no ones business what he does with it.  He quotes a fee and does a job.

Normal scrappers are just regular people competing for strictly metal, which is rarely given away free and always hotly competed for when it is.  Logging is really similar. The good wood is commanding good money but the cost of production is high so what do you have for a margin?  Sometimes very very little. Sometimes nothing. You can buy stumpage in spring then come winter the mill drops the price and you have a machine go down or burn, or fuel spikes.  Now what?  Landowner aint gonna pay you to haul it off.   Snow and firewood dont have this issue unless you got into some sort of foolish contract.

The more mills in an area the higher the wood price but the more the local areas forests are picked clean. The further from a mill the more mature the timber, in smaller blocks,  especially as we approach suburban wealth.

Forests dont restock as fast as snowy parking lots or cold houses so you are always on the move as a logger, and always writing checks.  Firewood and plowing you get to work close to home and send invoices.  Your excavation business could easily become a critical component of procuring your firewood supply by sliding into tree removal. They know youre gonna charge as soon as you pull in. 

What logging i do now is under the guise of landclearing.  I dont pay the landowner, they pay me. I bill the one machine at $125hr for friends and when i bid jobs for neighbors/strangers i aim at $200/hr with or without the wood.  Firewood is so low here i am money ahead to pile and burn it instead of dragging it home to pile higher and never have time to process it since its just me burning it.. for $50 a rick it would cost me money to sell it.

I dont know if i ever made minimum wage as a "logger"  .. when you factor in hours and repairs i probably lost money. 

[Firewoodjoe]

I'd stay out of the snow plowing and firewood unless your location is much different than ours. Just turns money and not a lot of profit. If you're very serious about logging I'd take the 80k and go to the bank. Finance ctl. But if you're thinking winter logging only and parking it so you can do dirt work I'd just get in as cheap as you can. Work for the fact to stay busy and hope it's a bonus vs sitting around. What about using your excavator in some way. Hand fall or cheap buncher cheap grapple Skidder and have the excavator on the landing. Really it's tough to do it part time unless you going real cheap like running a chainsaw. Lots of options I guess.

[concretecutter]

Mike_b I agree with you on a lot of that. I've tried snow removal or snow plowing the problem with that I've found is. It either snows only a couple times a year and when it does trying to get people to pay is the other nightmare. I thought about just having them pay ahead of time. But in the end is it even worth it by the time you maintain and run your stuff through the salt and pound the daylights out of everything.

Firewood is hit and miss I've done it but it also is a dieing thing. People that burn wood cut a lot of their own. Kids know adays don't know how to even start a fire.

Since I have the Clark 666c with grapple and working winch, my thought on this is try a little logging for pulp aspen at about $800 a semii load. Or maybe try hardwoods stack them up for the winter and get a firewood processor and cut spring break up.

Just struggle making any money in winter worked pipeline before but now have a kid in the mix and need a flexible schedule.

Firewood Joe that's kind my thought try to go in as cheap as possible if things sit around it isn't the end of the world. Something breaks it won't be the end of the world I do have a heated shop to fix things and I'm a decent mechanic

[mike_belben]

I'd stay out of the snow plowing and firewood unless your location is much different than ours.

I guess i should throw in the disclaimer that my observations are based on doing a little of everything in the northeast and middle tennessee, and they may constitute terrible advice in places i have never been.

[Firewoodjoe]

Mike both snow and firewood can be a good gig but that's the problem everyone with a pickup and chainsaw try both. Good years and bad years. My last year in firewood a made 7k. Well as a teenager that's great but as a working adult it's not considering all the nights weekends hard work and idiots you deal with. I made a voicemail for all my accounts to call and listen to and never looked back. Snow plowing is the same deal. Nights weekends idiots and $20-40 per drive with a $20-80,000 rig. No thanks. Now if a guy had a plow truck for your own use and you're sitting around by all means plow a drive for some cash or even if you have extra firewood sell it. But not to start a second business endeavor. IMO

[Firewoodjoe]

I guess it's prolly all the same in a way. I spend prolly 50% of my gross just to keep the ball rolling in logging. (Guessing off the top of my head)  But when you're talking 100s of thousands vs 10 thousand that 50% is worth it at the end of the year.

[mike_belben]

I understand.   A man really has to identify the underserved niche in his unique region. Then let his boat drift into the best spot(s) he finds.

Gotta cast where the fish are if ya wanna eat. If we keep casting we eventually figure it out. And hey sometimes a hot spot goes dry such is life.

Only piece of advice that i will stand by as universal in all locations, is that the lower your expenses, the easier it is to succeed.  2 people can be doing the same thing in the same place.  One says business is great, the other says im gonna lose everything.  Expenses is what sets them apart. A business that cannot manage expense is akin to a ship with no bilge pumps.  Theres a storm comin some day.

[chevytaHOE5674]

First thing to look at is can you move whatever you are going to cut?

Further north most pulp contracts are tight and it's hard to only move wood 4 months of the year. The buyers would rather a steady year round logger that they can plan their quotas around vs a part timer that may or may not cut wood next week.

Good saw logs can almost always be sold, but in most Northern hardwoods stand you cut a whole lot more pulp.

[concretecutter]

Chevy I have the ability to move anything I need on my own. I've never had an issue selling pulp part time as the mills around me scream for wood until breakup and they become full. Actually this year the forester for one of the mills called me and asked me to get into logging as they can't find enough people to cut for them.

[Firewoodjoe]

Yep Weyerhaeuser is really low here. Talk of only two weeks inventory left if quotas weren't filled.

[concretecutter]

One of my competitors hauls a lot of salt in the winter on an end dump. Don't know much about it but might have to look into that might be less headache than having multiple machines to maintain but hate sitting behind the wheel. My ADHD goes crazy lol

[chevytaHOE5674]

Plowing snow is a lost cause UP here. Everybody and their brother has a plow on their truck and will plow a driveway for a 6-pack of the cheapest beer possible. Heck I plow a few driveways for nothing more than a thank you.

Same goes for firewood. Guys will sell a pickup load of wood for drinking money.

If Northern WI is like here, buy yourself a log truck and stay busy hauling other guys wood all day. There's a few guys around that build winter roads for loggers.

[Firewoodjoe]

We have a hard time finding dozer guys in winter. Most excavating companies have stuff shut down and put away. Some even have seasonal insurance.

[concretecutter]

Chevy yep that's the case here as well cheap case of beer or a thank you.

Every crack head sells firewood...

Like anything money in volume, but also don't want touch financing involved incase it doesn't work.


Logging I get it isn't the most profitable but more something to keep me busy but wanted to see if someone had some production numbers with older equipment.

Owning a log truck might be fine in some places but I live within 5 miles of a state of the art scale house and there's a dozen troopers running non stop

Log trucks normally make $300 on a 3 hour trip and back leaving very little money on the table after expenses

[Firewoodjoe]

And insurance and maintenance will kill you on a part time truck. I'm not done with 2023 paper work but I'm thinking it's 5-6 cord per machine hour. My machine hours are low because I jump between two and sometimes three machines. But harvester is about 1000 hours. So 5-6000 cord I'm thinking. Not bad I think for me. Usually alone and I don't hit it really hard. I have a life out of the logging operation. My parts and maintenance was way up this year but a chunk is an engine and inflation. Fuel was actually down $2000. My goal for 2024 is paper work and documentation. I'm not good with that but I want to be able to pull up anything and see exactly what it cost me. And that's on just under $200,000 equipment and high hours. Newest is 2006.

[barbender]

 Trying to find cheap equipment that isn't going to bless you with a major, expensive breakdowns is tough. I'd probably try to find a buncher, and work a season with the buncher and skidder, hand limbing and bucking.

I've seen crews work that way. In my area (northern MN) you can hire custom felling/bunching. The reason I suggest that is any buncher can probably put up a weeks worth of skidding for one skidder, in a day. I've seen 2 skidder hand limbing crews where the buncher sat 80% of the time.

That would at least eliminate hand falling, and get you pulling wood with what equipment you already have. Put a log grapple on your excavator to pile wood with. Heck you could put guarding on the cab and a Ryan's dangle felling head on an excavator, I think those heads are a lot of money for what they are but, worth looking into.

[concretecutter]

Firewood Joe those are some decent numbers thank you for providing some insight. Could I ask what processor and what head are you running. I'm not sure why everything is a secret when it comes to numbers and production etc with a lot of people. we all are in the same boat and love what we do and all have had to learn the hard way on some things. Some more than others. I don't even mind helping my competion out from time to time aslong as there good people and don't talk trash or plays games. We're all here to make a living.

Barbender that is the route I'm thinking of going feller buncher and grapple stack with excavator.

Keep it as simple as possible

Trying to decide a wheeled buncher or tracked.

[Firewoodjoe]

I felt the same way when I started out. All a big secret. Then the ones that do give their opinion (including me right now) are in a different situation. Weather it's financially geologically or type and size of wood. Then you have the used to be's  or employees. Not trying to be rude, their opinions and ideas are correct also. But they don't see it from the owner side or from new/current world. Only from the years they did it. It's tough. It's like the news. You have to watch all the channels and read between the lines. Remember everything and make your own puzzle from all the pieces. More than one way to skin a cat and they all can work if the right situation.

I run a 415ex timbco with a fabtek fixed head. Simple and reliable. Better options yeah but not what I paid or near as simple.

Buncher? Ugh I want a track buncher so bad. They will do so much more. But cost more. And a rubber tired machine is fast on its feet. Right now I parked mine. The way the trees are and the ground lays it so hard to use the rubber cutter. I'm using the harvester to cut from the stump. So much nicer. Lots to think about for sure.

[Log-it-up]

How is is the high grade market in your area for saw logs
You have the equipment to stack and handle wood in the landing, my opinion 80k dose not get you much of a cutter in this area anyways, know of a few people that bought in that price range and 30-40 thousand  later there still not done spending.
So for four months out of the year you done want to be wrenching on iron.
We have the same problem here with guys with diggers I've been working on construction crews for over 20 years residential (which I can't stand anymore) and commercial, engineers and lack of decent labor force has drove me to focus more on forestry

[concretecutter]

Joe, I agree we all are in different situations no two are the same. If I can save someone a few thousand by showing them a different way or by preventing them a costly failure I will make sure they are aware. In the dirt side of things in my area I'm highly respected because I produce a lot of quality results, and worked for most of my competition. But ive had no one help me along the way and probably learned most of it the hard way. Any time i can give advice i will.

Like I tell everyone stay with name brand machines Deere cat etc dealer support is everything nothing more frustrating then not being able to find parts.

Deere in my opinion makes a better machine than cat, in reliability terms.

Paint doesn't pay the bills!



How are the parts availability on the timbcos?

What's the biggest tree that machine can cut off the stump comfortably?

There really isn't a high grade market on logs around me.

Large hardwood go to pipeline Matt's
Large pine go to sawmills but both timber stands are hard to find.

Kinda where I'm at to in dirt residential jobs are a new face every other day
Chasing checks
Lately it's been some of my best customers that are trustworthy now struggling and been a month behind paying when I was expecting them to pay on time.
Working for other contractors well they take the cream of the crop and leave you with what they don't want, leaving very little money on the table. Sometimes you'll get one or two jobs that'll make your summer while the rest your just breaking even.

[Firewoodjoe]

I do pretty much all my own repairs. I've had no trouble with parts. Two things I needed the rebuild and the kit wasn't available so I had to buy the hole part. Honestly sometimes a guy should anyways. It's all high hour. The house swing gear box bearing failed. Oil impregnated spherical brass. No way to lube it. It's a "forever" bearing. Bearing wasn't available. $9k for the hole thing. Well I ordered a bearing from a uk company pressed it out and had my machinist add a grease zerk. Less than $600. Otherwise they're all generic parts. No brand specific like cat or Deere. I do have the last one before komatsu. So they little older ones may be different.

[Firewoodjoe]

The head is only rated for 18". But the bar will cut a full 24". It will grab and swing a 20" I'd say. Once you're comfortable with it you can triple cut very large trees. Then as long as the measuring wheel will touch buck it up. Or use a tape and paint can on the really big butt logs. I mostly cut hardwood. If I was in big pine with limbs near the butt I'd have a different head. It's all in what you want to deal with. You can cut the top up and work down towards the butt. Then roll them around and trim/delimb them. I've cut 40" white pine with no chainsaw.

[Skeans1]

Firewood Joe those are some decent numbers thank you for providing some insight. Could I ask what processor and what head are you running. I'm not sure why everything is a secret when it comes to numbers and production etc with a lot of people. we all are in the same boat and love what we do and all have had to learn the hard way on some things. Some more than others. I don't even mind helping my competion out from time to time aslong as there good people and don't talk trash or plays games. We're all here to make a living.

Barbender that is the route I'm thinking of going feller buncher and grapple stack with excavator.

Keep it as simple as possible

Trying to decide a wheeled buncher or tracked.

Because some of the contracts will state they will be terminated if any numbers are disclosed.

[Skeans1]

The head is only rated for 18". But the bar will cut a full 24". It will grab and swing a 20" I'd say. Once you're comfortable with it you can triple cut very large trees. Then as long as the measuring wheel will touch buck it up. Or use a tape and paint can on the really big butt logs. I mostly cut hardwood. If I was in big pine with limbs near the butt I'd have a different head. It's all in what you want to deal with. You can cut the top up and work down towards the butt. Then roll them around and trim/delimb them. I've cut 40" white pine with no chainsaw.

If you keep pushing that head with bigger wood it will start having some major issues where the spine will get beat out. With ours the previous operator liked to try to do 24" and it killed the pins for the roll arm frames in a hurry weekly I'd have to replace those 3/4" bolts that would hold those pins in.