Howdy Chainsaw People:
On the surface at least this may sound like a dumb question, but, I was wondering - what makes a saw "a professional saw"?
On the Stihl Comparison Chart (http://www.stihlusa.com/chainsaws/comparison) the MS 391 is listed as a Mid-Range saw with a 64.1 CC engine at 3.3 KW/4.4 BPH while the MS 362 is listed as a Professional saw with a 59 CC engine at 3.4/4.6 BHP.
Perhaps a better comparison would be the MS 271 Mid-range and the MS 261 Professional. Both have a 50.2 CC engine. The 271 is rated as having 2.6 KW and the 261 as 2.8 KW. The 261 0.7 pounds lighter then the 271. Both saws have a recommended bar length of 16 inches.
I had assumed that the bigger the saw engine the more "professional" the saw would be and the smaller the engine the more "home owner" i.e. infrequently used the saw would be. It appears that my assuming is wrong. So what makes a saw a Professional saw?
God Bless, Ward and Mary.
Good question Ward, I always thought of the professional series as built tougher, built to run longer and in harsher conditions. I probably heard that here somewhere...
Jon
It is up to the manufacturer as to how it designates its saws. Nearly all clamshell design saws are non-pro. Pro saws usually have adjustable oilers and higher specific outputs than a similar HO/Farm saw.
Ward, there are others on here who can give a much more detailed explanation, but as you've noticed, there is more to the "pro" vs Landowner/midrange vs "homeowner/occasional use" saw classification than just the size of the engine.
For starters, the higher end saws usually have a higher power to weight ratio. This is achieved both by better materials in the higher end saws for lower weight, and by tweaking the engine design to get that last bit of performance out of it.
The construction is different as well. Homeowner saws are often a clamshell plastic case where pro saws have more metal. This can make the inexpensive homeowners saws tougher to work on (which many times means throwing them out and buying a new one is a better deal than repairing them - especially if you are paying someone else to repair it for you). The pro saws are designed to be taken apart and repaired (when you've got that much money into a saw, you don't throw it out just because it needs a $50 - $100 replacement part).
Homeowner saws sometimes can't take the heat of continual 8 hours a day use, while the pro saws are designed for this.
There are also a lot of what the manufacturers call "midrange" saws that have mostly pro construction features (the Husky 353 and 359 are two such saws). Then there are "midrange" saws that share more of the "homeowner"-type construction (Husky 450/455/460). They are still decent saws, just not in the same class as the "upper level" midrange saws.
It's usually the construction that's different. Lighter alloys, less plastic, better bearings etc on the "pro" saws. This allows them to be ported for higher revs (more power) without flying apart, and they are lighter, more powerful, AND more durable. Of course they cost more.
So a pro grade MS261 (50cc) costs about the same as a "miderange" MS 391 (65cc).
So why would you buy a MS261? If you only need a small saw (for thinning small pine trees?), but are going to be using it 8 hours a day for a year, you buy the lighter and more durable 261.
If you expect to spend a couple of days a year lopping up some larger logs into firewood, buy the 391. You are going to be an old man by the time you wear that out with part time use.
When you get up into the saws bigger than that, pretty much all of them a "Pro" grade, simply because no one wants to spend big $$ on a "throwaway", and most "homeowner" types aren't going to be buying a 70-100cc saw. But there are wide range of smaller pro grade saws for tree trimmers, pruning and lighter forestry work.
The Husky range is less confusing, they put XP on the end of the pro saws. But that goes from a 338XP T (39cc) to a 3120XP (120cc)
Ian
Just to muddy the water a bit, Husky also has some pro-type construction on some of their non-XP saws. They can be excellent, durable saws, for a good bit less money. As mentioned earlier, the 353 and 359 are some good examples. The new 555 is another.
Adjustable oilers and decompression valves come to mind on professional saws. Cold weather options like heated handles and carb heaters,intake shrouds even things like rim sprockets, better bars and square chisel chain. ;D
Here in eastern Canada (NovaScotia) the 353, 359 and 555 are labeled as professional.
Then saws like the 346, 357 and 562 are labeled as commercial.
It can be confusing at times for people wanting a new saw.
Chris
I have one of Husqvarna's US catalogs from 2008. They used to separate saws into Homeowner, Landowner, and Professional categories, with a little color-coded symbol next to them.
Pro Saw: the 570, and anything with an "XP" after it
Landowner: 359, 353, 460, 455, 450, 334T
Homeowner: 445, 440, 435, 240, 235
I always thought the 353 and the 359 were a significant step up in construction as compared to the others in the Landowner category.
That P/L/H labeling had disappeared by the 2011 catalog.
On more modern saws it's usually the construction .Pro saws of the more modern era generally have replaceable cylinders as well as tunneled transfer ports .Not all but most .They are made to be refurbished where generally speaking a consumer saw is not .
It's just the target market .FWIW most consumer saws won't last long if subjected to the rigors of pro usage .As proof of that statement I have a box full of dead 029 Stihls and 039's that didn't survive one season in the hands of a tree trimming crew .
Usually the man behind the saw running it. I know guys that know what they were doing using a Wildthing put more wood on the ground than one who didn't using a MS660.
Build quality, most pro saws will have closed port cylinders which make more power per cc most times, lighter wieght. Steve
Quote from: Al_Smith on March 27, 2012, 09:38:23 PM
On more modern saws it's usually the construction .Pro saws of the more modern era generally have replaceable cylinders as well as tunneled transfer ports .Not all but most .They are made to be refurbished where generally speaking a consumer saw is not .
It's just the target market .FWIW most consumer saws won't last long if subjected to the rigors of pro usage .As proof of that statement I have a box full of dead 029 Stihls and 039's that didn't survive one season in the hands of a tree trimming crew .
Al hit it right on when he said target market. as others have said pro saws are made to run all day,homeowner saws are targeted to run ever so often and are cheaper in design and construction. I have a box of 09 stihls that where home owner saws,but they where top handle saws,light and cheap. Tim
The user of the saw makes it a "pro" saw. Plenty of professionals using "homeowner" saws and plenty of back yard pikers using "pro" saws. The Clamshells are believed to be more difficult to rebuild and allegedly more time consuming in the process. once you've done a few it ain't so bad to rebuild a clam. any caveman can swap a jug and a slug on a "pro". Can he find out why it blew in the first place is to be seen.
I am far from a pro but I cut a bunch of firewood and since I live on a farm with trees in the fence rows I sometimes need to get a blowdown cut up to move it. I like my 2 pro grade saws, 044 and 261 Stihls, because if I have 3 hours available to buck firewood I want to get a bunch cut and if a tree blows down over a road I want to get it moved quick plus the pro saws are just more fun to run!
While I'd be the first to agree that the user of the saw is what determines whether you get pro results or not, that has nothing to do with whether the saw itself is pro-grade. Also, being a pro-mechanic or pro saw trouble-shooter does not make you a user who gets pro results cutting with a saw. While there are a number of people who are good at both, they are two completely different skill sets. Being good at one does not automatically make you good at the other.
Most professions I've had exposure to are the same. I'd rather deal with a true professional with amateur equipment, than a buffoon with the best equipment made.
John Mc
Amateur chainsaw user, who happens to appreciate using pro saws (even if I can't always afford/justify buying one)
When i had a failure with a saw, the first thing i wanted to know is what caused it. So that i didn't have repeat.
I used farmer, rancher, homeowner, pro-grade saws, never had a problem. I've always said, a saw is only as good as its owner.
The biggest cause of saw failure is running dull and pushing on saw as hard as they can, full throttle on till the piston s scored.
I watch a hired man do this with a new 044, there was nothing i could do except watch. He was a lucky man, if my legs would have kicked in for 1 minute, i would have used Gochie's hold on him. 8)
I'd imagine if the operator of the saw was prudent enough to provide proper attention the non pro grades would hold up .
Fact I ran a non pro rated Mac PM 610 relentlessly when I sold firewood ,flogged it hard for 8-9 years .I took care of it though and I still have it .
You get a trimming crew which face it most brush draggers are not sawmen .Occasionaly they operate saws and they beat them to a pulp .Some people could destroy an anvil with a feather .
In the wrong hands they could ruin a 1200 dollar Ms 660 inside of a week .Yet some people can keep a less expensive "wild thing " running for years .All saw operators are not created equal .
Quote from: John Mc on March 29, 2012, 06:37:21 PM
While I'd be the first to agree that the user of the saw is what determines whether you get pro results or not, that has nothing to do with whether the saw itself is pro-grade. Also, being a pro-mechanic or pro saw trouble-shooter does not make you a user who gets pro results cutting with a saw. While there are a number of people who are good at both, they are two completely different skill sets. Being good at one does not automatically make you good at the other.
Most professions I've had exposure to are the same. I'd rather deal with a true professional with amateur equipment, than a buffoon with the best equipment made.
John Mc
Amateur chainsaw user, who happens to appreciate using pro saws (even if I can't always afford/justify buying one)
John,
Not sure if you were agreeing with me or not...but just to carry my point further...if the question was "what makes the chainsaw a 'pro' " I would say the "Chain" because the actual usage and "anticipated" usage of a homeowner and pro ect saw depends on the user or the ability to maintain a sharp tooth and raker relationship. Any "pro" or otherwise saw is useless w/o proper chains. I'll take a MS290 with a pro filed chain over any 360-1-2 with a hack ground chain every day. Its a "chain"saw first...then a "pro", "homeowner", "firewood", "farmer" ect...
Angelo
I agree that the chains are important, but the OP didn't ask what makes a pro chain (or a pro user, or pro results), he asked about a pro saw. So I guess we're all going off on tangents a bit.
8) Thanks to all who have replied. I have enjoyed the learning that each post has given me.
God Bless, Ward and Mary.
I believe what I am about to tell you is true in "most" cases. Cheap home owner saws usually have one compression ring, commercial or professional saws will have two or maybe even three compression rings. Heavy bearings on cranks while the cheaper home owner saws may even have bushings not bearings. More machined parts on the pros and more stamped parts on the cheap saws. It would be like comparing a hand built racing engine to an off the shelf 1950 six cylinder engine in the typical car. There is a huge difference. If you are going to trim a few trees in the back yard each year and cut one face cord of small fire wood buy a home model cheaper saw. If you are going to cut 100 or more face cord of fire wood a year as I do, buy the best middle range or pro saw you can afford. I still have a 1976 Sthil 041 farm boss, that cut 120-130 cord a year for 25 years and it is still running. Never had a major repair, just a few minor parts. The only real reason I bought other saws is the anti-vibration feature and I am too
old to cut that much wood anymore so I bought a little 32 cc for trimming and
a Husky 55 for falling an blocking for about 8 face cord a year. The husky has done this now for 10 years and I just bought the 32cc Tanaka this year. First one did not start well and would not start after one tank. They simply replaced it and the second one runs fine after I took the spark arrestor off. It has an amazing 7 year warranty which I find hard to believe.
aquacanis.. ya do know 041 stihl is a single ring?
i blew up a pouland pruner saw this year :) less than 3 wks old. weekend slashin brush from 10 to 20 something diameter pines. only used it on the weekends.
Well actually there were two piston sizes .The 44 mm had one ring ,the 48 mm had two .
The one or 2 ring doesn't matter much as quite a few pro saws use 1 ring plus a lot of 150hp snowmobile engines. Most Husky xp saw have had 1 ring for a while as the 1 ring will make a bit more power due to less friction. I don't know if a saw could get by with a bushing instead of a ball bearing with just the mix for lube, I've never saw a bushing in a saw but have'nt had any real cheap ones apart. I think the most important thing on a pro saw is the quality of the parts that are in it plus the power to wieght. On the little tanaka saw make sure it's not set too lean on the high, a lot of new saws are nowdays thanks to the EPA. The first thing I do on new saws is pull the caps and tune them right for my elevation and the gas I use. You'll find more power also when not set too lean. Steve
Shelby charger400 Not to argue about one or two rings but if you go to ebay
and search "sthil 041 piston rings" they come up with many replacement kits
that include pistons and rings etc. They all show two grooves in the piston and
two rings in the kit. What am I missing?
In my experience around brush saws, it's the operator. I say this because, a few years back, if I bought a top end brush saw and said I was weed whacking around the barn on occasion I would have a full year warranty on the saw. But if I was going thinning for work I only got 90 days. They labeled it as a "professional use saw". This would be the same even if I bought a model or two lower in size. Just a couple years ago they go rid of the 90 day deal and everyone gets a year. I beleive they did this because Echo offered a full year from the get go. Now Echo is out of the top end brush saw business.
:'( guess im gunna have to eat my words aquacanis
i was always told to tell the singles from the doubles is by the 031/ 041 were single, 032/042 ect were the double. i guess that is wrong.
No problem on being wrong on the rings shelby, all I try to do anymore is
keep at 51% right and that is getting damned hard to do at 68. he he.
An honest man when faced with irrefutable evidence that he is wrong has
only two choices admit it and correct it or become dishonest. The latter usually
end up in Congress.
You can't just go by model numbers .A lot of us have the IPL's ,specs etc for a mulitude of saws which give measurements etc .
For example the mention of the 042 brings to mind it is one of the few Stihl models that uses an odd size bore which is 49 MM .Highly unusual because most are of an even number like 44,48,50,52 etc .They're kind of rare but I have one myself .Nice one too .
FWIW many models of pro saws used a single ring .It's an old trick also for racers to remove one ring ,less drag .
Removing one ring and or designing with one ring somehow just doesn't set
well with me. Ring blow by on the power stroke and slop of the piston in the cylinder comes to mind immediately.
I might be a 68 yr. old farm boy but I'll take two rings anytime. Maybe a little
more drag and less rpm but better power running at a speed meant for the rest of the unit.
Keep in mind though that the piston slop on any modern engine be it saw or auto is much tighter than back in the day of the John-Deere A that used two oil rings and 3 power rings or the D4 Cat that used 4 power rings and two oil .Those JD and Cat piston rings are like 5/16 of an inch wide .
A modern car engine has two power and one oil and those engines will out last the time tested Chevy 350 by years .Thin rings to boot .150-200 thousand miles is not uncommon .
I'm about as "old school " as they come but what is ,is . ;)
This is the end of my discussion on the ring thing Al. And you are spot on
with the new alloy rings and only two compression and one oil ring in the new
car engines. The new oils also play a huge part in this. BUT ONE ring still
just does not set right with me. Enough said. Its been a good conversation.