Giant trees Atlanta

[EtOtw]

Atlanta is a strange place for one it is plaged by hardwoods from the civil war that cause traffic jams power outage and home destruction. Atlanta's answer leave em by the roadside or send them to a private landfill in south east Atlanta I call Tree mountain. Or there left to tree service companies which cost a fortune rightfully so in this case. I want mill as much as I can into useable lumber both for my use and for sale to others . I say waste not want not . I'm trying to make a Kickstarter or similar crowdfunding deal but I'm trying to create a list of needed and wanted tools
-sawmill I've used bandsaw mill before so I'm kinda partial
-chainfall add a frame to lift from helps get trees on the mill
-skidsteer mini x tractor
-trailer for the last one maybe one for lumber
-truck to pull all this least one if a boom or bucket truck maybe skip the skid steer etc
I have a minimum of storage and hope to find some one with a kiln so these are wants chainsaws are a have some not enough a chipper and stump grinder be nice and land is gonna be a nessity before long any help advice anything 

[Southside]

I am honestly trying to understand what it is you are trying to do here. Am I understanding you that your plan is to saw urban lumber into ?  via donated funding?

What is the plan to sell said lumber? Do you have any lumber experience? Urban trees have very little value  to negative value for a reason.

[Jeff]

@Ron Wenrich may have a cautionary tale for you.

[Stephen1]

Urban Salvage is what you want to do. I once heard 11 billion bd ft of urban salvage wood is sent to the dump in North America every year, of which 7 billion is useable wood. 
The definition of Urban Salvage is wood that comes from a community of 2500 population. 
All the wood I deal with is Urban Salvage, lots of nails, hardware and junk wood for sure. Lots of beautiful wood. 
You need heavy equipment, a large band mill that can saw 50-60" at least and a smaller mill that can saw smaller logs into lumber . you need a kiln that can dry your wide wood as green wood or AD wood really has no value. You also will want a wide planer that can plane the wide slabs. Everything you do to the wood increases the value.
I use a tilt deck tow truck to pick up logs from customers. I have a fork lift at the shop. 
If I get really wide logs I bring in a portable mill that can saw 53". I do not come across a lot of large logs so no need for a super wide mill when others have them that I can hire.

[Ianab]

I think the issue with a lot of Urban Salvage projects is the $$ amount of machinery needed, vs the production quantity (and quality) you can achieve. Like Stephen has listed, the mill, log and board handling machinery, kiln and storage, equipment to plane and joint the slabs and boards for sale. The mill is usually only a small part of the overall investment. 


One thing I would consider is looking at a swing blade mill, especially for an initial startup. Lower initial cost / high production / large log capability / portability and  cheap add-ons for wide slab sawing, and even planing and sanding of table top size slabs once dried. The mill is also portable enough to move into a back yard and saw an over-size log on site. Now if the operation becomes successful, you can add more equipment (and staff to operate them). But you have a viable operation with a truck / forklift / and the mill from first start-up. 
 

Sales has been touched on too. All well and good producing the wood, but you have to then sell it. If you run a retail outlet, that's time away from production, or more staff costs. So maybe do your budget on selling "wholesale", either to an allied outlet(s), or factoring in the cost of operating your own retail operation. 


AND, a metal detector will be your friend. Doesn't matter what mill, they don't like hitting metal. With a swing blade you can re-tip the saw yourself with a simple jig and gas torch, so metal strikes are annoying, but need not be costly. Still a cost, slower production and more waste of course. You will need an outlet for junk wood and other waste, maybe a firewood side operation? Some logs you will just give up on and send straight to the junk pile. 

[Ron Wenrich]

I have experience with urban logs in a commercial setting.  The urban setting was metropolitan Newark, NJ.  The business plan was to use urban logs that were brought in by arborists.  They were using it to avoid tipping fees at the local dumps.  Arborists can only lift so much weight, and a lot of the logs were shorter than 8'.  That's a marketing problem.  The theory sounds good, but leaves a lot to be desired from a practical standpoint.

You will have a higher incidence of trash metal.  We couldn't filter all of it out with scanning the logs with the typical metal detector.  We also couldn't get it all with a commercial metal detector that each log went through.  High amounts of damage to equipment.

Species mix is also a problem.  We got a lot of sycamore, pin oak and silver maple.  You may take the time to try to quarter saw the sycamore, but you better have a market.  In addition, urban trees grow a lot faster, so the ring spacing isn't quite as good.  It gives a lot more bland looking wood than do forest grown trees. I found a lot of the logs yielded blocking material.  If you have a high amount of softwoods, you may be able to recover dimension lumber, which means you'll be competing with the big box stores for market share.  Your economics will be thrown out the window.

We were working on a 10 acre lot, and that wasn't enough room when you get into a natural disaster.  Ours was Hurricane Sandy, where we got dumped on, and filled the lot within a month.  You may be able to pick and choose logs, and keep your production rather low.  Your production time will be eaten up by sorting and  retrieving logs, which will no longer be "free".  Metal will still be a major problem.  Here's what a log dump looks like.


 

A skidsteer always looks to be a practical loader until you have to use it.  My experience has been that they're too light to handle any heavy loads, unless you get one designed to work that way.  We couldn't lift and move a bundle of 1 Mbf.  

We never got to the real production stage.  They were producing blocking with a Mighty Mite sawmill, but were transporting it too far to be economical.  They went through $6 million and went bankrupt.  That wasn't due to the original business plan, but through their mismanagement of trying to pull the project together.  Then there was also a lot of red tape involved.  They were using a mixture of old equipment (to keep costs low) and new equipment that they leased and destroyed.  Inexperienced help is very expensive.

We were looking at getting about 10Mbf/day with some value added in both kiln dried lumber and stakes.  The price point was set too high to make enough profit to offset the costs.  It was so high that they couldn't move lumber at any production level.  

There are people that are producing urban wood at a small scale.  But, you have to know the markets of what can be produced and at what price point.  Waste disposal can get to be a problem in urban areas.  If you're serious about doing this, you might want to set up a business plan and use a sharp pencil to get it all together.  Most times, milling and log handling equipment costs are underestimated and production is overestimated.  Sale prices are often overestimated and production costs are underestimated. 

I want to add the importance of niche marketing.  Many years ago, I was walking around a major US college campus.  Lots of urban trees, and I wondered what they did with those trees when they were taken down.  But, then I started to wonder what I could do with those trees.  I knew someone that worked for the university and found that they buried the trees that died due to disease. My thought was that the end use was to put this campus trees into furniture, diploma frames, and the like with a target market of college graduates.

My friend started to inquire about the logs, which triggered the university to thinking it had a resource they could use.  They had their lumber sawn, kiln dried, and produced furniture, diploma frames and the like that they could sell to their alumni.  Its cool to see your plan working, but not so cool when its working for someone else.  Finding a niche market is pretty much the key to urban milling.  Market first, production later.

[Ianab]

Ron's post makes the point that a larger scale operation needs reliable sources of Good logs, and matching markets. If you are $10 mil into an operation it HAS to be moving a LOT of material, and all at a pretty slim commodity wood price. 

The smaller niche operation allows you more flexibility, but has it's own challenges. Sourcing logs and marketing product etc. 

Is there an option to work with a firewood processing operation?  Idea being that they can move pretty much any wood (for the right price), and put aside some of the good saw logs.  You would probably end up paying them something for those better logs, but it's easy $ for them as they just have to put them aside for you, so a "handling fee". The firewood market can also act as an outlet for much of the mill waste / reject boards. 

The portable mill I mentioned gives you the option to do "low impact" mobile milling of oversize logs when the opportunity comes up. And if you have kiln drying and basic machining services on offer too you have those niche services mentioned. Kilns are certainly a good add-on, because they are making money with little labour input. Sure you have to load / unload and monitor them, but for that week or 2 they are just sitting there earning $$ while you are able to do other tasks. A mill or planer/moulder needs an operator(s) or it's sitting idle. 

[Ron Wenrich]

Part of the plan on the Newark project was to use the wood waste to fuel the kiln.  The problem was the cost of the kiln was exorbitant for the project.   But, the return on the wood was good because they were marketing it as recycled urban trees and sustainable products.  The price point was high, but there is only a few types of lumber that are attractive to this market.  

Unfortunately, the majority of urban logs are not of that species.  They tend to be fast growing trees, which yields little character due to wider than normal growth rings.   They are harder to match in a panel.  

You might be able to get someone to sort the logs.  I have my doubts that any place accepting urban logs would go through the hassle.  Its a labor issue that I found in urban areas.  In addition, there's an education process necessary as to the types and species ID.  You would be better off going directly to the trees service guys than to a dump site.

I think the mobility of a swing style mill is a good option if you can mill on site and leave your waste wood there.  Some of these sites are using big hogs to reduce it to mulch.  Mulch markets tend to be more attractive than firewood in urban areas.  But, you have seasonality issues with both markets.  And you need an area so store the material and to age it.

I had looked at doing a mobile operation with another operator, and our choice was to go with a swing blade operation.  We wanted to mill on site and send the milled lumber to a concentration yard.  In the northeast, there are companies that run these dump sites for municipalities.  Where we hit a snag was when the dump operators found that there was value in the logs, they no longer wanted to discuss much with you. They would try to internalize the operation and cut us out.  

[Stephen1]

Ron has been there done that. 
My business plan is based around portable sawing for customers. The Kiln is needed as the customer will just burn the logs if he can not use them sooner than later. I know, I was there before the kiln.  A lot of customers turned me down once they found out they had to wait a year or 2 to get the wood back from a kiln. I buy logs from a local Arborists that uses a mini excavator for all his work. All his logs come back to his yard in 8-12' lengths. He then processes them into firewood. I get to drop in when I drive by and put my S on the very nice logs. He will set them aside and sometimes even deliver them. For a fee.  
As  a small nice market I do pretty good. 

[Clark]

Look into Taylor guitars and their approach to buying urban ash in California. They are doing it but they also have a high value product. There was at least one operation in...Phoenix?...featured in a woodmizer video that was doing much the same thing.

Starting small would be smart and making friends with one tree service that can provide you with what you want is a great first step. If you are providing them a place to drop trees for free they will be more inclined to meet your specs. If they already have a free place then it's an uphill battle.

Some people love to focus on metal in the trees but I don't think metal is going to be the problem. That's an issue that has to be dealt with and priced into your final product. Everything else that goes into the process will make or break you. Zoning, equipment choices, people and supply are the ones that come to the top of my mind.

Clark

[Stevenjohn21]

I'm in Atlanta and had the fairytale "business plan" of receiving urban logs, milling them and making a fortune which then would allow me to quit my day job. 
I'm just over 1 year in with my mill and let's just say, I'm not about to quit my day job anytime soon.

I receive logs from a few arborists who will drop logs off for free when they are in the area. This means that one month I may receive 100+ logs but then for 3 months I don't get anything. 

Milling is hard work! I have a manual sawmill and I have to do everything on my own, after 8-10 hours of working my day job I then put in around 2-3 hours of wrestling logs on the mill. I do get to put in about 5-6 hours on the weekend but that's your weekend taken up. 

The next problem is a kiln. People won't purchase green wood, although I have sold some to customers that have ignored my warning that their project will end up looking terrible. 
My solar kiln does what it's suppose to do but I can only fill it/empty it about 3 times a year because I have to rely on the weather. This amount of dry wood is not going to make me rich. 

I have a Tractor that does the heavy lifting but after 50 hours I learned real quick that hydraulic fluid, oil and grease is expensive and eats into profit along with new sawmill blades, chainsaws, gas & diesel. 

I do use the wood to create tables, desks, chairs, benches & mantels which is a far better return than selling slabs/lumber ..... more hours and time away from milling wood but instead of selling a slab for $200 I can get $2000+ if I make a table. 

I have a booth in one of those "antique" type stores where I don't have to be present, the furniture sells itself. I mainly did this for storage since I do not have enough room to store the furniture I make. 

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love milling and working with wood. I'm fascinated at seeing a tree become a piece of furniture, especially knowing that I did it from start to finish however, it's a LOT of work. 

Since you are in the Atlanta area, you're more than welcome to come and see my setup, watch/help for an hour, ask questions etc 
You may decide against it all once you've seen what all is involved 😂

[Stephen1]

Stevenjohn21, good plan but your only 1 year in. It will get better as people will begin to want your wood working skills. Don't just saw wood as you will never compete with someone with a hydraulic mill, or HD. You need to saw and dry what you can upgrade to most amount of money....Finished product. 
The small guy has to value add to the wood. Every step you make to the log adds value.

[barbender]

I really think that a small urban salvage's operation first purchase should be a dry kiln. Hire someone else to saw the lumber for you until you start getting some returns off the back of that dry kiln. If you are trying to produce finished slabs, furniture and other high grade lumber a sawmill doesn't get you there- only part way. And there are sawmills all over, but how many small kilns do you know of?

[Stephen1]

Mine business evolved the other way. I was only portable sawing. I upgraded to a new mill and purchased the kiln and now I only saw and dry. Next might be a planer but the would mean I would have to hire someone.
The kiln runs 24/7. The sawmill runs 1-2 days a week. and hardly at all in the winter. To me the kiln is like the Financial planner who invests your money, the markets never sleep and your invested money is working 24/7.
I think your right BB in that a kiln for a wood working shop should be first, as you can buy lumber from a near by  sawmill very inexpensively. A sawmill involves more than just a sawmill, you need support equipment, skid steer, tractor,. You do not need heavy equipment to run a small kiln.  Then KD for your self and then build and sell furniture,  and also once all these sawmills learn you have a kiln they bring you wood to dry.  Then you need support equipment. It never ends... :D

[barbender]

 I by and large sell utility lumber. Green, right off the mill. Concrete form boards, trailer decking, pallet lumber and lumber for outdoor buildings. I have no doubt a kiln would be profitable in my area, it would stay busy drying lumber for sale and kiln drying for others. I'm just not prepared to invest the money and time necessary to get one up and running. 

 It has taken me a long time to develop the customer's I have, because there is a limited market for green lumber from a low producing mill. I see guys buy mills and think they are going to set the world on fire selling lumber, only to find most of the market is for kiln dried wood. So that's how I come back to my point that, if selling lumber is your aim, you'd be better off with a kiln first because it produces a saleable product, where a mill does not in all cases.

[Ron Wenrich]

I think you're going to have to look at your markets.  It sounds like your furniture is both a work of passion and its profitable.  A kiln would seem the best way to go.  If you enjoy making furniture, it also is a necessity unless you're buying kiln dried lumber.

I don't know how much sawing you have under your belt, but there are going to be products from your production that you're going to have to get rid of.  Sawdust, slabs and edging strips don't command much of a price, and I see where some people give it away.  Your markets may vary. 

But, there's also the product that doesn't make furniture quality.  Low grade can be made into flooring, but there's a lot of waste.  You can sell pallet stock or pallet cants.  Not a great market value, but its just something else you have to handle and dispose of. 

I like the idea of allowing someone else to saw your logs.  If you can bring in someone who is portable, you can do a lot to help with the sawing.  That should lower your "need" to saw lumber.  You also offset the sawmill costs and free up a bunch of time and cash.  You'll still have the market issues.  If you can take them to someone stationary, you may be able to work out a deal with the below grade, if they have a market.

Urban trees sound like a good idea.  Their growth patterns have wide rings, which may not be desirable in the finished product.  The upside is that there are some species that you might not find native that yields nice lumber.

[thecfarm]

If you not sawing, you are building.
Probably more money in building then sawing?
Takes time to saw.