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4 degree vs turbo 7

Started by Magicman, November 12, 2020, 08:53:34 AM

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flatrock58

I have been running Turbo 7's for a while. I use .45 x 1.25 on my lt40 Kubota. The run good in most everything I cut until the get dull.  The only problem I have had is a nail strike takes out 1/4-1/2 the teeth on a blade compared to a few teeth on the 9 degree blades. 
2001 LT40 Super Kubota 42
6' extension
resaw attachment
CBN Sharpener
Cooks Dual Tooth Setter
Solar Kiln

Durf700

I took one of the blades with me when I picked up my BMS250 sharpener that came with my LT 35 mill that were dull.. turns out the previous owner was running some turbo 739 bands.. so I grabbed a cbn wheel for them as well as for my 10 degree bands.  I cut almost all hemlock.  I sharpened the 739 turbo bands (keep in mind I've never sharpened before) with 2 light passes on the sharpener.  then set the teeth to about 23 thousands.  (first time ever using setter) and was super impressed with the turbo 739 band on my gas LT 35.  It appeared to cut flat and very fast compared to my 10 degree bands.  I have about 30 of these turbo 739 bands that were used that came with the mill.  I'm gonna run a few of my used 10 degree bands to make a good comparison but I felt the turbo 739 cut very well..

Magicman

I have read several comments about how 4° blades seem to handle metal strikes better and are more easily recovered than "pointy teeth" T7's.  Remember that I only saw customer's logs.  When I strike metal, I change the blade, add a $30 blade charge to the customer's invoice and continue sawing.  I have no interest whatsoever in whether the blade can be reclaimed because it goes into the junk pile.  My only consideration is what blade saws the best/flattest and fastest for me.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Mossy Chariot

So good to hear opinions about different blades and the basis for these opinions. 
When I started sawing (just two years ago), my only blade was 4 degree. This was based on recommendation by Tim with WM, Newman GA.  I had 15 of these resharpened by a nearby sawyer who sharpened them to turbo 7's.  I have since also purchased a box of 747s and a box of 10s. Over the last couple of weeks, I've sawed about 8,000 bf of poplar, all 1" x 16"/14"/12" with my LT35HD with a 25HP Kohler and used all four of these blade types.  The 4s cut the flattest and smoothest while leaving a lot of sawdust on the boards. The T7s cut good and removed a lot more of the sawdust but seemed to dull quicker and start diving at knots even when I slowed down. The 747s did not cut smooth at all. Maybe I just don't have enough power for these. The 10s seemed to dull the quickest.  Based on other's comments in this thread, the best blade seems to vary with HP, cut length and wood density. In my case, I'll probably migrate to 4s for most everything.
Tony B
LT35HD, Riehl Edger, Woodmaster 725 Planer/Molder, Nyle 53 Drying Kiln, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, T750 Bobcat, E50 Excavator, Kubota 3450, Wallenstein Skidding Winch, Vermeer BC1250 Chipper, Stihl 250 & 460, Can-Am Defender

SawyerTed

Yesterday I used Turbo 7s to saw around 600 bdft of walnut. They cut smooth and flat.  Sawing speed was a bit faster than 4° blades. 

I have portable jobs Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday.  The new 4° CBN wheel won't be here so I'll be using T7° bands.  I'm satisfied they will do the jobs.
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

Durf700

what is the difference between the turbo 739 bands I have and the turbo 747 you guys are using?  I have only ever cut with 10 degree bands until I just tried out these 739s.

thanks

Percy

Quote from: Durf700 on November 15, 2020, 10:44:52 AM
what is the difference between the turbo 739 bands I have and the turbo 747 you guys are using?  I have only ever cut with 10 degree bands until I just tried out these 739s.

thanks
The designations/names  confuse me sometimes. I think, and I may have this wrong, the 7 degree turbos are tall tooth blades with more meat on the backside than a 747 blade. A few years ago, I tried a couple turbos(7/39) cutting sitka spruce...they were kinda slow cutting compared to the 13 degree blades I was using at the time.They cut strait untill the knots showed up and the 13's performed much better than them in sitka(softwood).. The 747 blades seem to like the sitka right out of the box and they cut strait...for me...I had to doctor the 13's to get them to cut strait(way more set)in the sitka..Ive learned from this forum that hardwoods and SYP are much different animals than what Im used to....
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

Magicman

I got a PM asking whether I use 1¼X.045 or 1½X.055 blades.  My reply is copied below: 

I am using 1¼" - .045, but the 1½" - .055 would saw flatter.  My problem with .055 blades on my 19" bandwheels was much less blade life.  The LT70 has larger bandwheels so the blade life with .055 blades is much better. 

Everything seems to be a sorta trade off balancing act weighing the pro's and con's so there is really no right or  wrong, just different decisions based on the different sawmills and sawing markets.


This topic has generated several interesting replies regarding the different blade tooth profiles, etc. that we use for sawing different species plus different sawmill setups.  There is no one-size-fits-all.  I think that I have enough 4° blades to saw for a couple of days before they are all dull.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

YellowHammer

The Standard Turbo's, just like the 747 Turbos have a deep gullet (tall tooth) and both carry more sawdust out of the kerf than the standard WM 7's, even though all three have a 7 degree tooth.  The standard 7's, with a shallower gullet, spills more sawdust and cuts straight for me in hardwood and moderately fast.  Since the gullet is shallow, they retain a good deal of beam strength in .045 thickness and were my preferred blade for the 19" inch wheels on my LT40.

The .045 Turbos, with the deep gullet, in the same .045 thickness, had less beam strength and wandered more in hardwood, and also produced a scratchy surface on the board faces, where I could tell it wasn't "happy."  So I changed over to 7/39 .055 Turbos and magic happened, the beam strength was back, the saw cut as fast as I could push it, which results in much less sawdust on the board and no hand scraping.  So that was very desirable, fast cutting and little sawdust.  However, that's when I started having drive belt issues and band fatigue problems.  So when a band breaks, it sometimes tears up the bandweel belts so I was losing time and money where they popped.  So I went back to standard 7's.

When I got my LTSuper 70 Wide, I found that there really isn't any band or even brand it doesn't like, but the .055 x 1.5" 7/39 Turbos really perform well.  Noticeably better than any other band including the 747's.  Faster, smoother, and very little sawdust.

Having had 3 different types of mills over the years, there is no doubt that there is no silver bullet for bands, each one has advantages and issues.  The best thing is to get a few of each, hang them on the wall, get into a good sawing rhythm and run a few to dull, with no preconceived notions.   
  
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Magicman

I put my last sharp 4° blade on this afternoon to test it's ability to saw nails.


 
It's toast and I had grown weary of changing the 4° blades about every 2½ hours anyway.

I am going to call Resharp and have them replace a couple of reject 4°'s with 1½"X.045, T7°'s.  I am not interested in chasing blades, but they should be better for me than the 4°.  I'll see if I can tell any difference between the 1¼" and 1½".   ???
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

ladylake

Quote from: SawyerTed on November 13, 2020, 03:57:30 PM
I guess I'm sawing with T7s tomorrow since this is my 4° wheel.

I was getting frustrated with my 4° bands.  Now I know why - there's nothing left to sharpen the tooth face.  Too many attempts at recovering metal strike blades  🙄


 



  How many bands did you sharpen before the wheel wore out?   I think you ran it a little too long.  Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

SawyerTed

In the neighborhood of 300 ish.  I found two things that led to the wheel's early demise.  First in the last 6 weeks or so I've had an unusual number of nail strikes and I've been using a heavy face grind.  Second, and probably more important is the tube from the pump to the wheel that carries cutting oil had a partial clog. 

So it was a combination of inexperience and being "penny wise and pound foolish."  I need to examine my metal strike blades closer and be much more judicious in trying to recover blades that hit metal.   And I need to be more careful about cleaning up the cutting oil in the sharpener.

Sawed white oak today.  Several logs were from trees that have been cur a good while, T7s did not cut true - too many waves.  I was able to sharpen several 4s yesterday and they got me through.  One of the white oak logs was about as hard as any wood I've cut.  

The T7s were fine in the green oaks. 
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

YellowHammer

Were those 045 or 055 Turbos that didn't do well in the white oak? 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

SawyerTed

They were .045.  But I'm telling you the white oak logs were dry, very dry and hard!
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

barbender

In my limited experience cutting dry bur oak, and green ash (probably the two most difficult hardwoods to saw up here, because of the low moisture content) it takes a fresh blade to saw them straight, and the blade doesn't stay fresh long. I've been in them where I used a blade per log🤷🏽‍♂️
Too many irons in the fire

Peter Drouin

T7x11/4x55 for me. Work well when I push out the set.
But, when I hit something like iron -rocks the tops of the teeth are gone.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Bruno of NH

Sawing red pine 6x6x16 with silver tip .042 turbo 7
Nice flat and true cuts as fast as it will cut.
I use the silvertips on logs 16" I buy them right at DW bands and like the flex life.
I don't use them for logs over 16"

 
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

YellowHammer

Bruno,
I agree totally, I stopped using Double Hard bands this year because I like the nearly half price and extended flex life of the Silver Tips.  It may be they are the same alloy, I don't know, but in my opinion, the second hardening process makes the DH bands more prone to fatigue.  The Silver Tips have a hardened tip, but the band body is not hardened to the extent of a DH.  Even with my bigger wheels of the 70, I still break .055 DH bands too frequently for my liking.  Along with the fact that they also sometimes take out a band wheel belt or two, a high speed break can get expensive, maybe $80.  

My DH bands for my LT70Wide cost $42, my Silver Tips $23.  So I can sharpen a Silvertip one time and get to about $10 per band, which means I'm at the Resharp/Buy New breakpoint with them with one sharpening.  

As far as I can tell, Silvertips perform virtually just as well in clean wood as the DH bands, with zero out of the box breaks, and at half the price.  Then, since I retire them early because I didn't pay that much to begin with, I don't get the fatigue break of a DH after several sharpenings.

Silver Tips do not like dirt, the DH bands are better in that aspect, so it's important to make sure the debarker is tracking in the saw kerf.  

I was convinced to swap over after seeing, Customsawyer who runs a couple million bdft per year, using Silvertips.

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

customsawyer

I run what ever I can get the most bang for the buck. I just ordered some 1.75x.055 7/39 silver tips. We will see how they do. I was running the 1.75 body blade until I started having trouble with them. Worked with Kasco for several years running their 7/40 with great success. Now doing a little research to see if I can gain some. Don't know how it will turn out just yet but we will see.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

Southside

Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

customsawyer

I ordered 2 rolls. Haven't heard anything about him getting it in yet. Which is fine. I still have over 30 new blades and over a 100 that need sharpened.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

Southside

Don't you be hoarding all of it. Bands be like toilet paper pretty soon, can only buy two at a time.  :D
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Patrick NC

Tried some 4 degree 1.25x.045 blades today in white oak. Kinda disappointed. Don't cut nearly as straight as the 7s I've been using. Blades weren't getting hot. I tried 2 blades in the same log, both cut waves. Put on a 7 degree blade , cut straight. Same log. 
Norwood HD36, Husky 372xp xtorq, 550xp mk2 , 460 rancher, Kubota l2501, Case 1845 skid steer,

ladylake

Quote from: Patrick NC on November 22, 2020, 02:47:58 PM
Tried some 4 degree 1.25x.045 blades today in white oak. Kinda disappointed. Don't cut nearly as straight as the 7s I've been using. Blades weren't getting hot. I tried 2 blades in the same log, both cut waves. Put on a 7 degree blade , cut straight. Same log.
There's something wrong with your 4° blades, mine cut white oak dried out or green perfect until real dull.  Several different brands.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

SawyerTed

Nearly 50% of the lumber I cut is white oak.  In green white oak either 4° or T7 cut fine.  In dry white oak 4° cut better for me. 
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

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