delivered a guy a 5 face ford load of wood in august he's never paid me, I got a hold of him last week he told me to f off he wasn't paying... any suggestions >:(
When I hauled wood, wood didn't hit the ground until payment was in hand. I don't know what, if any, recourse you have now.
Most of my suggestions aren't legal.
I would chalk this up as a life/business lesson. I only deal with reputable buyers and I only accept cash.
Not sure how it works there but in Va. you can get a warrant in debt and take the person to civil court. It would be General District Court b/c of the value.
Like the other gents stated it is a civil matter. :-\ Your only recourse is to take him to small claims court. As well I would touch base with some of the other firewood suppliers in your area and give them his name and address so that they can steer clear of him as well. No since others falling into the same misfortune.
Can I take a police officer with me and go get it
Quote from: cutter88 on November 09, 2014, 07:33:52 PM
Can I take a police officer with me and go get it
That would be trespassing unless the wood is on a public way.
Bad deal. I've been lucky and only had one issue and he paid. I've had friends stand face to face yelling with spit flying and they didn't pay. The problem with wood is there's no proof. No SN or VIN. You have to be a good judge of carrector and stay till they pay. If not then call the cops and your still there with the wood and the truck. Good luck😁
Sounds bad, real bad, not sure what to do, take some pictures if it's still there? go to court, maybe help him burn it?
Find out when no one is home and take it back but it won't be bad if a cop was their
Bum idea..Sheriffs will summons him to civil court here.In the future do not load or unload until you have cash payment in your pocket.
its theft, he never intended to pay you at all. Talk to the cops. Gain from fraud etc
Did he say why he's not paying?
Talk to the cops- it's stealing.
It might just need a third party to negotiate what's going on
Quote from: cutter88 on November 09, 2014, 07:33:52 PM
Can I take a police officer with me and go get it
In Canada if you make an agreement, verbal or otherwise, to receive payment for goods or services then that is a contract. Contracts are civil matters. The police only deal in criminal matters. Unfortunately the police will refuse to accompany you to buddy's property. They will tell you to get a lawyer or go to small claims court. I'm not 100% positive it is the same in the USA but would be pretty much the same way depending on which State. In my books and yours, it is theft. But the law makes that determination. I'll bet money though that this guy is well known to the police.
I would call the fire dept. because that wood would definitely be on fire.
Small Claims court should take care of this. I think it is your best option. He'll pay you before the court date if he is smart.
...so Lighting hit his wood pile ;)
Quote from: ely on November 10, 2014, 09:00:15 AM
I would call the fire dept. because that wood would definitely be on fire.
...or maybe a misplaced lit cigarette :D
While it is tempting to seek retribution, if you go on his property at this point you'll be trespassing and in the wrong. Take him to small claims court, get a judgment and then if you still haven't been paid you have the option to place a lien on his property and/or vehicles. That may not get you paid but he will be unable to sell those things until the lien is satisfied. With a judgement you may also be able to report him to a credit reporting service which will make getting credit difficult for him. Some states will let you recover your property with a judgment and a sheriff escort.
It's a sad commentary on today's society that we cannot go deal with this man to man but that's the society we as Americans have allowed to develop.
Cuttr88
Take him to small claims court.
When I delivered firewood I never unloaded until I had cash in hand checks were limited to a select group of repeat customers.
I dealt in full 8 ft cords, minimum 3 cd load (20 yrs ago) and I never chiseled on the load the customer always got a little extra.
I never advertised word got around from satisfied customers and I had all the orders that I could handle in fact too many as the lots I cut on shares were heavy to softwood not lots of birch or black ash.
Al
Unless you have some sort of receipt saying he received it you'll have a hard time getting any money back. I run into the same issue with hay customers (people with horses are the worst). I don't unload unless payment is in hand. I have very few customers I let pay me with a check, only one in fact and he doesn't have horses otherwise I wouldn't.
I think the best bet would be to talk to any of the other local wood sellers; tell them what's up and black ball him. He's going to be in trouble if you're the only one who will sell to him; which of course, he'd have to pay you for what he owes you first.
My FIL used to sell cordwood. My BIL went to deliver a load to his highschool football coach once. The deal my FIL insisted on was cash in your hand before you dump the wood. We got to the coach's house (who was an adze in my opinion anyway) and of course he has no cash, would we take a check? I turned to go back to the truck to leave when my BIL says "sure". I told him on the side that he was nuts and his dad was going to kill him but he kept saying that it was his coach. Of course, the check bounced and my BIL ended up paying for the wood. Lesson learned!
Good luck!
When it comes to life's requirements people will try it on. It doesn't surprise me about the hay, horse people are nuts any way and can get pretty obsessed by them.
That is a bummer getting stiffed on the firewood, One thing I will say is don't go and load it back up, it will make the problem even worse. My wife is in account receivable and does lots of collections, so if you want a bit of help or to see what you can do just send me a PM and I can ask her for you
Kev
I would make a second delivery to his house. This time it would be a dump truck of extremely heavy rocks dumped right in the entrance to his driveway. >:(
Quote from: Busy Beaver Lumber on November 10, 2014, 05:21:53 PM
I would make a second delivery to his house. This time it would be a dump truck of extremely heavy rocks dumped right in the entrance to his driveway. >:(
Got any pig farms near by that would be better than rocks
I know how I would deal with it. My attitude for these sort of situations is that he will pay the money- whether to me or someone else. Luckily I've never once been stiffed for work I've done.
So pritty much my only "legal" option is to take him to small claims court and by the time I miss time in the bush to deal with that it will hardly be worth me 500 bucks I'm out... So I think I will go with the whole what comes around goes around in good time :) and thanks guys for your help :)
make sure to tell everyone in you local area what he did to you. Include all of the details in your stories. When you see him in town call him a dead beat, as in " hey deadbeat how is that money you stiffed me out of treating you?" Then, when he comes back ina few years, they all do, charge him 2 times the amount up front and give him pine and punky poplar
I would certainly try to ruin his ability to do this to anyone else. Any chance his wife/parents/neighbours could pressure him into making it right? Very often people like that do it because its basically not public. Make it as public as possible without getting yourself in trouble. I think the advice about tipping off others is good and could be expanded to anyone who will listen.
Small town you will see him around remind from time to time.As far as things to say to him when you see him tell him if he does nt pay soon you will have no choice but to put a lean on his house,and that if he still has nt paid after 30 days you will go back and push it the rest of the way over.Good luck.
Do you have a record of the transaction or the request for the firewood, if so you can take him to small claims court and collect your money. This has been suggested by others already and does work without taking up a bunch of your time. If he is going to tell you where to go in the manner he did you can include his statement in your claim ..... it might even cost him a little more to get out of it with that attitude ;D, his choice of words is just what the court likes to hear when guys like that respond to a payment request. I would not say anything in the way of him being bad-pay till you have resolved this matter then you can remind him where to go after his payment clears the bank.
I think I'd swing by and pick up one of my boys, and go ask him if he might reconsider. ;D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11185/imagesMLXZKMJH.jpg)
Dakota
I got stiffed another time, but in this case it worked out. We used to rent a camp during deer season. We always paid a year in advance so the guy would keep our week for us (plus we always went up the Friday before our week so we'd get an extra day in hunting). This worked out great for many years and then he sold the camp. The new owner was OK and he honored our agreement but he told us he bought the place as an investment so we knew it wouldn't last forever.
Sure enough, one day in late summer he e-mailed me and said he was in the process of selling the camp and we'd need a new place for November. No problem, I said, just send me my money back. He said he would. Of course, he didn't. He was in Maine and we are in Mass so he must of thought that he'd never see us again anyway. Weeks went by and suddenly he wouldn't answer his phone or e-mails. We figured the money was lost.
I had shot a nice buck the year before and had it mounted by a taxidermist up there. He called me in October and said the mount was ready. My brother and I went up there for a long weekend and stayed with our cousin. The plan was to pick up the mount and do a little bird hunting.
My brother and I drove by the camp on our way hunting and I spotted the owner's truck there. What the heck, I figured, might as well stop. We stopped and I started calling the guys name. He answered from somewhere under neath the camp. Apparently he was fixing a pipe under the camp and had no idea it was us calling him. He crawled out on his back to see who was calling him. The look on his face when he saw it was me was PRICELESS!
He said "Oh, hey, I owe you money right?" I said "Yes you do, and I'm here to collect it." I guess the view of my 6'2" frame from his position on his back may have been a little intimidating because he reached into his pocket and peeled five $100 bills out of a roll and handed it up to me! What he was doing, crawling around with a roll of $100"s under a camp I'll never know but it was probably a good thing for both of us that he did!
Quote from: DeerMeadowFarm on November 10, 2014, 03:21:48 PM
. I run into the same issue with hay customers (people with horses are the worst). I don't unload unless payment is in hand. I have very few customers I let pay me with a check, only one in fact and he doesn't have horses otherwise I wouldn't.
Agreed. They certainly can be. I have six horses. I have two hay suppliers. One for round bales and one for square bales. I make it a habit each year to visit them 2 weeks before haying season and give them cash up front for the hay I need for the coming year. They always appreciate it because they need to buy fuel, baler twine, etc.
Quote from: Billbob on November 11, 2014, 02:12:10 PM
Agreed. They certainly can be. I have six horses. I have two hay suppliers. One for round bales and one for square bales. I make it a habit each year to visit them 2 weeks before haying season and give them cash up front for the hay I need for the coming year. They always appreciate it because they need to buy fuel, baler twine, etc.
Wow, I'd love a customer like you!Oh, and please don't take offense on the horse people comment. I realize they aren't all like that, but they are the only ones I have had trouble with. Some of these people own horses and their house is falling down around them. I understand the attraction to the horses, but you need to keep a roof over your head!
:) No offense taken! There are a lot of horse people I don't trust. Either with money or animals!
I love the idea of letting everyone in town now he's a dead beat. If you know where he shops for food, visit. If you know where he buys gas, visit and report. If you know where he gets his hair cut, stop by for a cut (tip well) and let all know that will listen while you're in the chair that he stiffed you. In fact, you might go by his place of employment and ask the receptionist for him. Tell them he cheated you out of the cost of a firewood delivery and you came by to ask if he'd like to pay his bill yet. Might even go as far as taking out an add letting all that read the paper that he still owes you "x" amount of money for your delivery of firewood delivered back on "date."
Then I'd look into anyone that sells firewood and send them the information. You might be surprised what might happen.
Tempting as it might be to burn it or reclaim it, let it go. I agree with others here, don't dump the wood unless paid for. I'd spread the word about this guy, and his behavior will only come back to hurt him in the future. Small claims court is an option, but it also burns up your time and your insides. Just pass it off to experience is my harsh suggestion. Best of Luck.
I talked to the wife last night about this, she said unless you have a signed contract you are pretty much screwed. Now if someone heard the verbal agreement and is willing to sign/swear an affidavit then take it to small claims if you want. other then that take it as a life lesson.
We had a guy here try to do the same with us, said we shorted him wood which didn't happen. we did get paid but not the full amount. After we talked to some of the other firewood guys in our area we learned that he did the same to 3 others.
kev
I've been stiffed a few times in my life. Tried lots of different remedies. Most will land you in jail, the rest will leave you not sleeping because you're *pithed off about the whole deal.
Then I started reading the bible, and found where Jesus said to bless those that curse you, and to pray for those that despitefully use you. I also found where God said that vengeance is His. I figured, what the heck, I'll give it a try. Well it works, and sometimes God will let you watch Him exact His vengeance. Way better solution than court. ;D
There must be some smelly stuff you can dump on the wood so he can smell it when he brings it in. :D :D :D :D
smiley_smelly_skunk
Red prospector you hit the nail on the had! Same thing here as the Bible and church opened my eyes and heart and now I sleep at nite and aren't in jail or in trouble. I do like hearing about the get backs but would never do them( the illegal ones)! Good luck and it does stink that this happened.
I would quietly go around to the other wood suppliers in the area. I don't know that aggressively telling the public would be a good idea or not. I sold a 450.00 dollar order to a guy through the state last year. He was running out again, so I sold him a pallet of eco bricks for 300 bucks delivered. He finally paid that off on time. Then got another pallet and a half and has never paid me for that. This year the state asked me to take him another order, I refused and told them he still owes me money from last year, so they had to get another vendor. I can take him to small claims court but I am going to probably let it go. He lost his job and the other guys in the area wont sell to him anymore so after his state allotment runs out, he will probably have to move south.
I am not familiar with the state allotment but I do wonder when a government agency will not guarantee something like that. If the others will not sell to him then that probably means that everyone has gotten stiffed for some amount by someone in the system. I know that welfare and social assistance are needed but I don't think a supplier should lose money when a government agency is ultimately paying the bill. If the product is necessary and sanctioned I think the payment should be guaranteed. Let the people with some power deal with it so if 1) He is using his heating money for beer. Or 2) he doesn't get enough to actually get by, the people with the money can deal with that. Did you ask if the State will pay an overdue bill?
What is 5 face cord of wood worth? Isn't that a cord and 2/3? Around here that's about $300 retail depending on green or seasoned. How much are you actually out as in your actual costs? $150?
I would be curious what he actually said when you went to collect too.
I would ask if is worth court costs and time to do anything. Sure, I don't like loosing $150 but I don't want to spend another $150 (or more) in time and lost sleep trying to get it back either, especially if it ain't likely. That SOB will get his and it is obvious he has it coming. If he is stiffing you on firewood imagine who else he is stiffing. You don't need to waste any more time IMO. I would perhaps share his info but again I wouldn't spend a bunch of time Doing it. It could reflect poorly on you if your running around town badmouthing a guy even if he deserves it. If he is a real cuss he could sue you for libel if you have no proof.
The plus side is you have a story to tell any future customers. "I'd like to leave it but I got burnt once so I have to insist on cash. " Let the customers know up front and you should be good.
Quote from: cutter88 on November 09, 2014, 05:31:36 PM
delivered a guy a 5 face ford load of wood in august he's never paid me, I got a hold of him last week he told me to f off he wasn't paying... any suggestions >:(
Take that skidder and drive over his truck? or push his house down, don't drive through the house (he might have a basement).
Quote from: shinnlinger on November 16, 2014, 09:55:44 PM
What is 5 face cord of wood worth? Isn't that a cord and 2/3? Around here that's about $300 retail depending on green or seasoned. How much are you actually out as in your actual costs? $150?
I would be curious what he actually said when you went to collect too.
I would ask if is worth court costs and time to do anything. Sure, I don't like loosing $150 but I don't want to spend another $150 (or more) in time and lost sleep trying to get it back either, especially if it ain't likely. That SOB will get his and it is obvious he has it coming. If he is stiffing you on firewood imagine who else he is stiffing. You don't need to waste any more time IMO. I would perhaps share his info but again I wouldn't spend a bunch of time Doing it. It could reflect poorly on you if your running around town badmouthing a guy even if he deserves it. If he is a real cuss he could sue you for libel if you have no proof.
The plus side is you have a story to tell any future customers. "I'd like to leave it but I got burnt once so I have to insist on cash. " Let the customers know up front and you should be good.
5 face cord here is 500 bucks
Even going to civil court, it is in his favor, not yours, even more so
if you are unable to provide proof of sale ie: contract, police report
showing the buyer stiffed you, etc, and civil court is just the start...
Even if the other guy never shows, and you win the case, now what?
Just because you win does not guarantee you any money, now you have
to do more work, file a property lien, wage garnishment, and by the
time you reach all this, you most likely will be in the hole even more....
going to court is for getting money from those that have money....
If he has to cheat you on the wood, common sense says he has none...
When deciding to go to court, you have to pick your battles carefully,
or you could end up going to court, spending even more money,
and in the end still have nothing to show for....
and just so you know, if you win your case, the court has nothing to do with
collecting your money; This is called a judgement, it paves the way for
you to start the collection process. People who owe debt get judgements
all the time, but this is just the first step in the creditor/collection process, then they
can try to seize assets, bank accounts (if there is anything to seize)
recap:
Payment must be made prior to unloading....
Payment: Cash only
Your best bet is not to become a creditor to your buyers.
Before you know it, you will have 50 people owing you
money, and you will have to take the same action
on each and every one of them, and still no guarantee
you will ever see your money in the end.
There is a thing called the cube and it clips on your cell phone and allows credit card sales. You get your money that way even if they don't have cash. I would hate to have to drive home with a full load and you know the load on your truck will be 24" when the next customer needs 16".
Sometimes we must burry our dead and move on, don't dwell on it. Warn your friends in the wood business. If he comes around cash only up front no deals. Frank C.
Tell him you need the money real bad because some of your inlaws or coming in from NY and they expect to be fed real good. Just mention that their last name is Gotti and if you don't have enough cash for steaks etc. then you will blame him. :D
Quote from: cutter88 on November 09, 2014, 05:31:36 PM
delivered a guy a 5 face ford load of wood in august he's never paid me, I got a hold of him last week he told me to f off he wasn't paying... any suggestions >:(
Your going to loose any way you go just mark it down as I learned a leason. Your chance of jail,lost time your travel. Tell your self I am not going to do that agin.
Quote from: bandmiller2 on December 01, 2014, 08:15:57 AM
Sometimes we must burry our dead and move on, don't dwell on it. Warn your friends in the wood business. If he comes around cash only up front no deals. Frank C.
That's pretty much it Frank. We gotta learn from our mistakes and move on when that is the only recourse. (Myself, I'm still making mistakes and still learning)
Bill