Extreme newbie needs saw advice (and more...)

[edelen]

A few years ago I purchased a small farm of about thirteen acres, with four to five acres forested. I always knew I needed to buy a chainsaw at some point, but put it off. Now after a brutal ice storm downed or damaged about two dozen trees, that purchase will have to happen--and soon.

Where I am having problems is in determining the best saw for my needs.

The trees I will be cutting are primarily:
* Locust, ash, and black walnut
* Circumference from ten to fifty inches
* Height from twenty to fifty feet
* Some need to be limbed, others felled completely
I am unsure of the best blade size for this mix. I'm not great at mechanic work, so if I need to be switching bars frequently the brand of saw would have to make that nearly foolproof.

I have used chainsaws before, but only for light firewood cutting--the prospect of downing these trees has me a bit nervous. Many are on hillsides in thick brush. I know all saws are potentially lethal, but I want one that is state-of-the-art in safety features and few hassles.

After looking at the cost of safety gear, I can barely afford the saw! I suspect my limit would be around $370 for the saw itself. I know that Stihl and Husqvarna are the two brands to beat, but are also very expensive. Someone suggested to me that John Deere makes a great value in a saw, but I am having problems confirming this.

Any thoughts? There are many dealers online for Huskies, but no one is quoting prices for Stihl online and the nearest Stihl dealer is a long way away from me. I can't even tell you if I can get a Stihl that can do the job well for my cost limit. I know that the Husqvarna 350 is going for as low as $285 online with an 18" bar.

Also, who are the best bets online for saws and safety equipment? I've seen a few companies mentioned here, but I may not be getting the whole picture.

Thank you all for your time and assistance.

[Avalancher]

I use the Husky 350 with a 20" bar for bucking, and I find it an excellent saw. I also have a 372 for the bigger stuff, but it is rare that I find myself dragging it out, the 350 seems more than able to handle what ever I throw at it. I do a lot of my buying at Baileys, you can find them here at
http://www.baileys-online.com/
Husky has a tendency to be a little cheaper than the same size of Stihl, and in my opinion is just as good a saw. The bar changing, chain tensioning is foolproof, just read the owners manual before using your saw the first time. Whatever you do, dont overlook the safety side, I would suggest a woodmens helmet. It has a safety helmet, flip down screen, and ear protection. That with a pair of gloves, chaps to protect your legs, and sturdy boots you should be well protected.
Stick with chains that will MINIMIZE kickback. No chain, regardless of what they say, will not prevent kickback. As you get more experienced you can move up to chains that are more aggresive and cut faster, but dont be tempted to try them at first. Faster aint goin to do you any good if you have a saw go through your forehead
Im sure some folks will come along with some excellent suggestions, this board is full of some of the most helpful people you will ever find.

[Tom]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, edelen.

I found myself needing a chainsaw when I started my custom sawing business and was no expert by any means.  Pretty much your situation where I had done some clearing and firewood.  At a loss, I ask the Pulp Wooders around here to give me advice.  Here is what I was told.

There are two saws that are supported locally, Stihl and Husky.  Either will do the job.

If you get a Stihl, and take it to the mechanic, you'll probably have it back the next morning.

Ifl you get a Husky, and take it to the mechanic, you'll be able wait a few minutes for it.

What they were telling me was that the bench time is shorter on a Husky.

Then they said that I should get a saw with a 4 cubic inch displacement, or as close to it as I could find.

Then they suggested that I would probably need a 20" bar since the size of the wood would vary so much.  A smaller bar if I wanted power and speed, but no less than a 16" bar.

Taking their advice I ended up with a Husky 61 and it has provided me continued service since 1993 and has lived on the back of my truck with not the best of care.  I can't speak for bench time because I have only had it in the shop twice.  The first was within a few minutes of buying the saw and the on/off switch broke.  It was replaced in about 10 minutes.  The next time  was 10 Years later when I had some problems starting it and had the carburator rebuilt.  It was done while I went to the resturaunt down the street and had lunch.

I have friends and customer with both Stihls and Huskys.  Both are good saws.  Most around here use huskys because there are few Stihl dealers.  You will find, in the long run, that you will be doing yourself a service if you shop as hard for the dealer as you do for the saw.  A good dealer will make or break your opinion of your equipment.

Other saws with good reputations around here are Jonsered (a husky look-a-like) and Echo (it is coming up in the ratings due to dealer backing.)  A good dealer will also offer you some training in use, maintenance and provide safety gear.

[IndyIan]

My $0.02 is take a short course on saw use and get the safety gear.  It sounds like you are cutting some tricky stuff right away and learning as you go might not be that fun...  

With a course you'll get a basic idea of what you should be doing, how to deal with tension(very important for ice storm damage), hand sharpening, proper felling cuts, how to use wedges, basic saw maintenance, etc.  With taking a course you'll never have to do the "cut and pray" method.  You should have an idea what's going to happen everytime you make a cut.

As far as saws go, Tom's advice is very good, and find a patient dealer.  If they don't have time to help you get started go somewhere else.  

Have fun and take it easy, the trees will still be there tommorow, running a saw tired is a no-no.
Ian

[DanG]

Welcome to the Forum.  Buy whatever saw brand has the best dealer near you.  Look's like a 20" bar will fill the bill.

Now, let's talk safety.  All that safety gear is important, but the most critical item of all is your thinking cap. Take a course, as Indylan suggested, if you possibly can. Read this Forum!  There are some excellent recent threads here on felling safety and technique. Remember, the saw ain't the only thing that can get you.  When felling, or anything else with a chainsaw, your brain MUST be multi-tasking. You can never take your mind off of the saw, but you also gotta be watching and thinking about the tree, your own body position, and a host of "what ifs".  A lot of the what ifs should be worked out in the planning stage, but they don't go away till the wood is in the shed.

Clearing that underbrush is a dangerous part, too, as well as important. It's important because you need a clear work area around the tree, and a good clean escape path. It's dangerous because that's where the saw is most likely to get you into trouble. NEVER just poke the snout of that thing into the bushes where you can't see the tip. Start at the edge and trim carefully until you can see what you're doing.  Make every movement a planned one, and always be very aware.

Limbing ain't as easy as it look's, either, especially on those larger trees. When the tree is on the ground, there are all sorts of unnatural pressures on the branches. Study the whole tree, then each individual branch so you can figure what's gonna happen when you cut it. Make sure it isn't supporting something else. If you cut the wrong one, the whole bloomin' tree can roll over on top of you.

Get some competent help, but be careful who you choose. I'd rather have someone with no experience, that will listen to me, than someone who THINKS he know's what he's doing.

Good luck with the project, be safe, and stick with us here on The Forestry Forum.

[edelen]

First of all, let me say thanks to all who have responded so far!

Safety classes have been mentioned. Where should I be looking for such classes? Would a dealer provide them, the extension office of Ohio State University (there is an office in my county), or is there some organization (like the Red Cross) that holds classes?

It seems Huskies win here, but I always like to consider more than one option since there is only one Huskie dealer near me and I know he's expensive compared to what I have seen online. What Stihl would fall below my upper limit of $370 and be appropriate for the kind of work I will be doing?

Lastly, there is one other option. Do you think it would be wiser to hire a pro to down the trees and just leave me with the firewood cutting that would result? How much would someone charge to down a tree--on average?

Thanks again for your kind observations and support!

[DanG]

I'd say that extension office would be a good place to start. Also, your county or state forestry office might have some info on a course.

Yeah, it probably is wiser to hire a pro, but it ain't near as much fun.  Also, it sounds like you're in the same financial boat as many of us.  To put it bluntly, if you're having to limit what you can spend for a good saw, you probably ain't gonna like the price a pro will give you for that job. You could call one in for an estimate, though. You just may find it most feasable to do the easy ones yourself, then hire a pro for the "scary trees." ;)  You might get a chance to pick his brain a bit while he's there looking at your trees.

Any chance that some of these trees might be sold as sawlogs? If so, you might get a logger to do some of it and pay you for the logs.  

[ComputerUser]

A thought on Stihl:  in your price range and for your purposes, I would give serious consideration to the 290 or 310 (or 390 if the price is right).  These three comprise a family of mid-power non-professional saws, and though they get a lot of bashing here on the forums for not being professional saws - not as readily adaptable to high-power customizing, not as light as some of the pro models, etc. - they are still very good saws and are very reasonably priced.  A few years back I was in a situation similar to you, in that I needed a "my first real saw" for doing work in our local nature preserve and at the cemetery, where trees larger than on my postage stamp sized yard.  I found that the price and power of the 290 was adequate for my purposes, which incidentally look rather like your purposes, and have been extremely pleased with my choice.  I got mine with a 20" bar for about $320, which falls squarely within your budget.

The saw has been a perfect performer, starting well hot or cold.  With the lower-kickback chain that I originally used on it, it cut very well (Stihl RapidMicro2).  With the higher-kickback full-chisel chain I put on it last year, it cut wonderfully (Stihl RapidSuper).  I honestly think the 290/RapidSuper combination is one of the best bangs for the buck going in chainsaws.

As for hiring a pro to down the trees, the truth is that unless the trees absolultely must fall in a particular confined space or if they need to be taken apart first by someone roped up high in the tree, you should be easily able to fell them yourself.  Do some reading on this site and elsewhere, and start on smaller ones to get a feel of how things work and how trees behave.  I'm sure you'll quickly get a feel for it and will be just fine.

[Kevin]

Welcome to the forum!

the prospect of downing these trees has me a bit nervous

That's a good thing, that's what we call your gut feeling and people who don't recognize it as a built in warning device usually end up hurt or worse.
If you take a chain saw course it will be money well spent.

[lucky_cutter]

It is good you are asking all the right questions.

If you have zero experience dropping trees and little knowledge of saws you have quite the learning curve ahead.
 
This forum is a great start. In addition to this thread I believe there is a place that covers injuries you should take a peek at. Someone else will have to point it out.

If you plan on using the saw over the long haul, a stihl or husky is a safe bet as parts and mechanics are readily available. Those two makes also have a great ratio of great saws to lemons.

safety gear has already been mentioned so I won't elaborate other than it can not be stressed enough. A class is also very important. If you are worried about the cost of a class and safety gear, know that they are far cheaper than a single trip to the emergency room.

As for dropping the trees, it depends on how much you are willing to learn. The very least you should have someone with experience showing you what to do. The more dangerous (technical) trees probably should be left to others until you have some experience. Dropping trees is a study in risk assesment and even "easy" trees can hold a surprise or two.You have a lot of knowledge to digest so start slow and build upon success. You might be able to find somebody who will drop the trees for you for a cord or two of firewood.

Keep using your noodle and good luck.

[devo]

Well its pretty much all been well said already, but I'll still throw in my 2 cents worth. The single most important piece of gear to have is a good head and judging by your posts you've got one. I know that taking a saw course will cost you money, but once you've taken it you'll be glad you did. It was stated earlier that the trees will still be there tomorrow, they will also still be there in a month, or in the spring when there is no snow, so if a chainsaw course will put you over budget, don't sweat it, just get the things you need as your budget allows. This probably wont be the last time you will need to clean up after a storm, so invest in yourself, and your equipment and one day you'll be the pro.

Being nervous is a good thing. It means you are using your head, and listening to your gut as Kevin said. With experience comes confidence. I've pretty much been cutting wood full time for 10 years now and I still find trees that I walk away from and come back to later.

On the saw question, my personal preference is for Stihl, but it is just that, my preference. Take the time to go to the dealers and play with the saws a little, you'll find a saw that feels right to you. Then find out if the saw will do the job.

Don't be afraid to ask questions, and this is the best place I can think of to do it.

[Larry]

Welcome edelen,
I bought a Husky 350 little over 5 years ago.  Went with a 16" bar because I wanted to use it for timber stand improvement and little limbing on trees around the house.  It has been a very good saw with no problems....I would think it would do everything you want to do.

Safety equipment is a good suggestion.  You might also want to think about a method to sharpen the chain.

[rebocardo]

> * Circumference from ten to fifty inches

Do you mean that or diameter? I would think a walnut tree 50 inches diameter might pay for someone to come in and cull some trees for you. Getting someone to pay you for your wood is nice  8)

I choose to learn on my own and started with a small saw and graduated to the bigger Huskies. Spend your money first on training and safety equipment.  If you think getting hit in the head by someone with a 2x4 would hurt, wait until a 6 inch branch springs back and hits you in the head. Use the stuff left over for the saw.

Saws 3.8 cc and under are tested along with their chains to minimize kickback as a package. A beginner should probably start with this type of saw and they usually only have bars 16-18 inches long. The more high powered the saw, the easier it is to get yourself into trouble.  IMO.

I see nothing wrong with starting with a $150 Home Depot saw and upgrading to something better IF you find this appeals to you as something you want to do for a long time.

I went over a year without a cant hook, I would recommend that as one of the first tools to buy.

Do NOT start with trees on hills or leaning. You will only get yourself killed or badly hurt. Start with the ones already down.
 
If you hire someone, read the threads and horror stories of dishonest loggers before you do.

Remember, green wood tips the scales between 50-76 pounds per cubic feet. A 18" DBH (diameter at breast height - about 4.5 feet)  tree, say white oak, about 60 feet tall will weigh at least 5,000 pounds.  

If it falls or rolls over on you, it will hurt. A white oak 50" DBH is going to tip the scales at 17-20 tons.

5 acres of woods, properly managed, will provide you with plenty of renewable firewood. Learning to use a chainsaw can provide plenty of fuel savings AND fun.

I usually get great satisfaction out of of doing something myself instead of hiring someone. Plus, you might find after you cut a few trees up that you might want to make some lumber for yourself from your own wood. Even if it is rough sawn and used for a shed or playground set.

[Avalancher]

Be aware of one other thing when buying a saw online. You may pay more money from a dealer than online, but you are more likely to get better service from a dealer where you bought the saw. There is a discussion somewhere on these boards that got a little heated about this subject, such as buying a Husky at Lowes and expect warranty work at your local dealer.
A dealer will help you select your proper bar, set the saw up, and give it a tuning once the break in period is over. He might even show you how to file your chain and show you the proper gauge to use, saving you tons of cashola on having a shop sharpen your chain everytime it gets dull.
The safety issue that everyone else stressed is the most excellent point. I learned how to proper fell a tree by hiring on with a logging crew in the summer. I did nothing but limb trees, set chokers, etc but I got to watch the pros knock trees down, and they were all willing to answer questions. When we were done for the day I went behind the crews and gathered firewood, came home every night with a pickup load of firewood. I took two weeks off of my job for vacation, and it was the best vacation that I have had! I got paid peanuts, but made up for it in knowledge gained. You can also contact road builders for the same experience, they always need a little extra hand for some cheap wages.
There was a gentleman that was killed here in Mobile after hurricane Ivan came through. He had a tree that broke off 15 ft up. The tree was on a hill and he reasoned that if the tree was cut, it would fall down hill. Started cutting on the uphill side and was surprised when the butt end swung off the stump and squashed him like a bug into the hill. Like everyone has stressed, trees are nothing to fool around with

[Captain]

I recommend

Professional Timber Falling, A Procedural Approach
by D. Douglas Dent.

It will not make you a competent tree surgeon by a simple read, only years of experience can do that.  It sure does a good job at showing you some of the dangers to look for.  At the time I read it, I had been felling trees for 16 years, since I was a teen that learned from a professional logger.  I still learned a bunch.

CAPTAIN

[pifan]

I am kinda new to this kind of work also but I've found out a couple of plastic wedges are a big help even when bucking firewood also if you buy a cheaper saw to get started you can always carry it after you upgrade to a bigger one I cannot count the times ive been dumb enough to get my bar stuck and had to get the other saw out. : good luck

[DanG]

Good point, Pitfan.  Also, if you only have one saw, carry an extra bar and chain. If you get the saw stuck, you can unbolt the saw from the stuck bar, put on the other one and use it to retrieve the first one. Be really careful with the second one, though. ;D :D :D :D

[rebocardo]

> Be really careful with the second one, though
 :D

[Kevin]

You can also eliminate most of those by learning to read the tree or log for top and bottom bind.
If there's any doubt cut slower, watch for movement in the wood at the cut and get a feel for the bar in the wood.

[DanG]

Had ta laugh this afternoon. Son-in-law was "helping" me remove a couple of little pines. We "removed" them to the mill. ;D  Anyway, I did the felling and limbed out the first one, then he limbed the second. As he was about to cut it off up there where it get's too skinny to use, I said, "Don't make me go get the other saw, now."  It weren't 15 seconds before he had that saw hung.  He gave me one of them looks sorta like Jeff eatin' a mouthful of grits. ;D :D :D :D

[Ianab]

One of the wierdest saw pinches I've had was cutting the top of a mac cypress. We had cut all the top branches off the trunk and they were laying around on the ground. As they we 4"-6" dia we were slicing them up for firewood. No great problem untill I got to this weird 'elbow' in the limb. Cut about 2" into it and the tension grabbed my saw real good  : . So here I am with the saw stuck in a little limb, that I could almost pick up and carry with me. It was only internal tension holding the saw. Had to get my buddy to cut me out of that little one  :-[

Gotta expect the unexpected  :D

ian
  

[Tom]

Ah yes.  I've been there and done that.  It's embarrassing.  :D

that's when having a sharp axe available is certainly handy.  Lots better than another chainsaw.  'Course, you gotta be real careful with them suckers too. :P

[Chris J]

If you guys keep offering all this useful advice & information in a friendly & nonjudgemental manner, I might have to give up that other site.

Seriously...welcome aboard & good luck, Edelen.  Let us know what you buy, & how everything goes.  Chances are whatever situation you encounter, someone here can give you some solid advice.

Forgive the digression, but I'm curious (BA Journalism) about the novel that you're writing.

Y'all be careful.