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Alternator problems

Started by DixieReb31, November 14, 2021, 08:48:21 AM

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DixieReb31

Volts read 11.79 while engine not running. 
Volts read 11.73 while engine is running. Not getting a charge. This mill is only 8 months old (LT35HD).
Anyone else solve this problem?
WM LT35HD, John Deere 2040, John Deere 4044 w/FEL, Grapple, forks.

Southside

Have you checked for a loose connection or broken wire? If the wiring is good the give WM a call. The regulator might have died in the alternator. It's under warranty. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

DixieReb31

Yes sir, I've checked all wiring harness and they appear ok, I'm afraid to do too much for fear of voiding the warranty. I do plan on calling WM tomorrow. Was just wondering if there was a quick fix or if someone knew a special trick. 
WM LT35HD, John Deere 2040, John Deere 4044 w/FEL, Grapple, forks.

barbender

If they are still the same, my '97 uses a standard Delco alternator. When mine went down in the middle of a job I stole the alternator off my Chevy pickup and sawed on😊
Too many irons in the fire

Percy

Just a shot in the dark, but check the little wire connection plug on the alternator, the one that excites the windings, not the thicker one that goes to the battery. Mine gets a poor connection often...
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

Southside

If I need to replace an alternator these days I eliminate that style and just go with the single wire that self excites from RPM one less potential failure point is how I see it.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Ben Cut-wright

Quote from: DixieReb31 on November 14, 2021, 08:48:21 AM
Volts read 11.79 while engine not running.
Volts read 11.73 while engine is running. Not getting a charge. This mill is only 8 months old (LT35HD).
Anyone else solve this problem?
Are your voltage readings from a mounted instrument/meter or a DMM? 
Did you jump start the engine or did it start normally?
How long have you run the mill with this low voltage condition?
Are all the electrical devices operating normally?
Is the CHARGE LIGHT operating?
There are more questions than the few I asked because the "problem" isn't well defined as yet. 

DixieReb31

Are your voltage readings from a mounted instrument/meter or a DMM? Hand held volt meter
Did you jump start the engine or did it start normally? Machine sat idle for 2 months, motor was covered from weather. Had to jump it off when I started back. It has started up from then on. 
How long have you run the mill with this low voltage condition? Maybe 6 hrs.
Are all the electrical devices operating normally? Seems to be
Is the CHARGE LIGHT operating? Not sure I have one.
There are more questions than the few I asked because the "problem" isn't well defined as yet.

Side note: sometimes while engine is idling, (no blade engagement) it will just shut off.  Sounds like it's running out of gas and just peters out to all stop. But, it will crank right back up as if nothing was wrong. 
WM LT35HD, John Deere 2040, John Deere 4044 w/FEL, Grapple, forks.

mike_belben

the charge indicator dummy light is also part of the field voltage supply.  if that bulb is dead the alternator cannot charge because the windings inside will not have any current to turn into a magnetic field.  consider it an alternator fuse.  thats not its purpose but if its blow it will behave like a fuse.  when you turn the key on the light should come on because one side has 12v and one side has zero.  once alternator is spinning the zero side comes up to 12 and no current flows so the light goes out.  if its dimly when running then theres a bit of current flowing which indicates either the alternator or the battery are getting low. an issue is brewing. 

if you have battery voltage going into the field wire and no magnetism around the center of the case then the alternator has a problem,  this is typically brushes used up or a big groove wore in the commutator but unlikely on a low hr unit.  if its putting out AC voltage your rectified bridge has failed.  if there is no voltage going to the field terminal you can apply it with a jumper lead careful not to get sucked into any belts, and see if it kicks up to full output. it should. 

sidenote- 1 wire alternators arent really that good at their job, fwiw.  they are simple and are fine for low draw applications like just starting and ignition spark.  high power drawing stuff you want load sensing and field wires so that the battery is never the source of power, the alternator is.  a load sense wire allows a much faster response from the alternator so that the battery is never doing the lifting and being drawn down because the alternator is putting more snot into it every time i click the winch or flip on the ambalamps lights or whatever.   really id suggest an external regulator too on something like a bargemonkey machine that has the lights on 16 hours a night. sorta on topic right?
Praise The Lord

Ben Cut-wright

OK, now you have provided some info we can sink our teeth into.  Some comments and more questions, as promised. ;D

Where did you take the voltage measurements? 

Since you only jumped started the "no crank battery", AND operated the engine for "six hours" after taking the reading of a (11.7 volt=25% charged battery), electrical accessories "seem to be operating normally", and the engine "starts right back up" after dying, the charging system almost has to be working to some extent. 

Does the engine die when operating the hydraulics or other electrical loads? 

Your owners/operators manual will specify as to the charge indicator light. There are other methods of excitation for the alternator but the charge light is the norm. 

Southside

There is no charge or alternator dummy light on an LT35, not even a gauge.  One thing you can do is kick the setworks off and then on again, it draws a heavy load on the alternator when starting up and you can hear the engine governor kick in as a result.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Ben Cut-wright

Quote from: Southside on November 14, 2021, 09:22:08 PM
There is no charge or alternator dummy light on an LT35, not even a gauge.  One thing you can do is kick the setworks off and then on again, it draws a heavy load on the alternator when starting up and you can hear the engine governor kick in as a result.  
Is amperage load greater when "kick the setworks off and then on again" or when operating the log lift or other hydraulic component?  The OP states "all electrical devices seem to operate properly".

I read your comment above as stating there is no provision, other than electrical faults or malfunction, to indicate a low-no charge condition on the  LT35?

Southside

Correct, there is nothing that indicates an alternator issue on the 35.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Al_Smith

Just a general statement on alternators .In my thinking a GM one wire is the most easily adaptable bullet proof made today .I have them on two Ferguson tractors, one Jeep CJ5 .an Oliver OC 6 dozer .They can be found in the $65 range brand new .Most you can change the drive pulley rather easily to fit the application .The mounting however you need to have some mechanical ability though .I gave up on rebuilding them years ago because of the work involved it's much simpler to just find a new one .
If you don't have a working knowledge of automotive electrical systems there is plenty of help on the internet . 

Ben Cut-wright

Also  only making general statements regarding function of (self-excitation one-wire alternators) compared to three wire alternators. 


Self exciting alternators monitor the voltage and amperage demands placed on the alternator.  The three wire alternator uses a sense wire and is capable of monitoring the demands of the entire circuit and battery loads. Would seem a slight difference but it does provide more appropriate and constant voltage over the entire wiring circuits.


The excitation circuit provides for an idiot light which gives a visual warning of charging fault.  Normally, this also creates a more rapid magnetic field to build and charging is begun sooner than self-exciting units. Alternators driven at slower idling speeds can begin charging without the need of high RPM's.


It is a serious deficit for a sawmill, or any unit requiring a charging system,  NOT to have some method to warn of low or no charging.  

Al_Smith

You can hook up a one wire just like any other charging system by using an amp meter .However saying that I have no idea how this mill is wired as some designers have a tendency to use complicated electronic systems to monitor things that are relatively  simple .
Now repairing a malfunctioning alternator is another subject .First of all is getting the dang thing apart to work on it .An epic battle most of the time .Then determining if it's worn brushes ,a faulty diode trio or whatever .Could have worn bearings .The time and money these days they aren't worth tinkering with .
Might sound hard to believe but I used a big reostat for an external regulated  Ford unit  on a '57 Ford F-600  when I was too poor to even  pay attention and it worked instead of a regulator .Some times you have to do things a little bit half-fast ( say that real quick ) just to get by .

DixieReb31

Update:
Called WM and talked to their Tech. He walked me through several tests. His conclusion was a bad key switch and bad alternator. I had new ones before the end of the week. Replaced the old with the new. However, problem still persists. Battery is barely getting a charge. I placed a volt meter on the machine so I could watch as I used. Battery is using volts faster than alternator is replenishing. Tried calling WM again, but Tech was off that day.  So, back to where I was. Bumfuzzled.
WM LT35HD, John Deere 2040, John Deere 4044 w/FEL, Grapple, forks.

mike_belben

if alternator is charging and battery is not then you have an open circuit in the connection from alt to battery.  If alt is not charging you still have an alt issue.  

While running above idle hold a magnet to the back center of the case without arcing anything.  Do we have magnetism?  13ish volts when measured from the alt chassis to charge lug?

If yes alt is good.  If not put battery voltage to the field terminal by jumper. Do we get magnetism? If no, alt dead or ungrounded.

If yes, check continuity of battery neg to alt case.  Should beep. If not, fix ground path.

Check continuity from alt charge lug to batt + terminal. Beep = go. No beep = fix charge wire.  

Alt should put out 13.x volts at the lug.


These arent external voltage regulators are they?
Praise The Lord

Ben Cut-wright

Quote from: DixieReb31 on November 25, 2021, 08:36:51 AM
Update:
Called WM and talked to their Tech. He walked me through several tests. His conclusion was a bad key switch and bad alternator. I had new ones before the end of the week. Replaced the old with the new. However, problem still persists. Battery is barely getting a charge. I placed a volt meter on the machine so I could watch as I used. Battery is using volts faster than alternator is replenishing. Tried calling WM again, but Tech was off that day.  So, back to where I was. Bumfuzzled.
What tests were done to determine a "bad key switch and a  bad alternator"? Obviously the tests were not accurate, the new components are faulty, or there is/has been other problems all along.
 
Does the alternator test at charging level voltage AT the alternator (BATT terminal stud on alternator) when running?
 
What voltage are you using to determine "battery is barely getting a charge"?

Where did you "place a volt meter"?

Testing at one point in the circuit doesn't always indicate the voltage all around the circuit.  Battery voltage through a viable conductor must be available to the alternator in order to begin charging.  Alternator voltage must be available to the battery in order to recharge the battery.  Your volt meter tests must include results at sources, connections, and terminations to be informative.  The Tech you spoke with must have been fairly confident to ship new components as a result of your test results.  This means little if the battery is still not being charged properly, though. The ground circuit is just as important as the positive circuit and is tested in much the same manner.  "Volt drop" tests can detect faulty connections and poor continuity if done correctly. A test light is also a valuable tool when troubleshooting wiring.   

doc henderson

If the batt. gets low on voltage (sounds like that is not a problem) then if the alt is charging it should go up when running.  you can then try putting the batt. on a charger, or take to to be tested.  still have to find if it is the alternator.  what are the chances of getting a bad alternator out of the box, and or a bad key switch?  not impossible, but unlikely.  at least now you have spares.  :) a bad connection comes to mind, and the ground is quite a common problem on outdoor 12 V equipment.  good luck, and let us know what you find.  I once got quite upset with a Walmart tech who told me my batt was fine.  I was sure it was not.  I found a TSC batt +lead, that came loos inside the lead clamp.  I found as I was trying to find the problem as the sun was going sown and heard, smelled and saw an arc when I moved the wire.  I tugged on it and it pulled out of the lead lug, and was covered with corrosion.  it looked new on the outside.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

Jim_Rogers

When I had problems the tech at WM told me to take a voltage check at the alternator first. Then work my way to the battery checking at each connection. If there was a more than point 2 voltage drop then that connection needed cleaning or repairing.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Stephen1

Here is my 2 cents. Simple version. The battery was dead from sitting for 2 months, probably on the contact strip. A dead battery will not charge on the WM when you are running and using hydraulics. The Alternators are not strong enough. It might have enought juice to start the mill but all sorts of troubles stem from a bad battery.
I would replace the battery with a fully charged battery and start testing from the ALT to the battery. 
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

Al_Smith

I'll see your 2 cents and raise it two cents .As general rule the lower the voltage the more problems arise from loose terminals .corrosion etc .12 volts is low you know plus a saw mill usually sets outside in the weather which doesn't help .The more modern use of push on style "quick connect " type of terminals just escalates the problems .I've already needed to cut them off and replace them with new ones just to correct a problem .It can drive you bonkers  chasing down "automotive " type wiring problems .Might take 3 days to find it then only ten minutes to fix it .

Ben Cut-wright

The WoodMizer tech help has always been pretty good, but....they can only go on what they are told when diagnosing remotely.  If the ground lead, for example, of the test instrument isn't connected properly, or the chosen ground is faulty, the test result is no good.  Keeping this in mind, "voltage drop testing" is a better method of testing connections. There are two methods of volt drop testing, one insures the connection test result is good or bad, and the other might NOT prove the connection or circuit sound, dependent on lead contact and circuit integrity. Also, a circuit could very easily pass a voltage test but be unable to pass a "load test".


It is most likely the case the WoodMizer tech help used test results given to them as basis for replacing the switch and the alternator.  Nevertheless, the alternator can be removed and taken to almost any automotive parts house and dynamically tested.  The key switch tests are not complicated.  IF, the probes of the test instrument were used properly there must have been some fault detected. No matter, all functions of the key switch are easily tested and verified as (good or fail). 


This is a fairly new machine ("8 months old"), surely passed basic tests when it left the factory.  This particular type of charging system is NOT hard to diagnose.  That does NOT mean all faults are easily found however.  There is info at the woodmizer site and others regarding charging system testing.  Components can be tested individually and as a group.  Parts have been replaced but no info has been provided as to what tests proved these parts were defective. 

mike_belben

Battery could be completely junk.. If it just barely starts the machine the alt should kick out high 12V minimum then eventually get into the 13s.  Theres plenty of juice in an 11V battery to excite the field and bump out some amps. 
Praise The Lord

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