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Need guidance on choosing a "Logger" for harvest of Ash & Walnut.

Started by DavidDeBord, August 29, 2016, 10:23:18 AM

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DavidDeBord

Mornin' Ya'll,

  This is my first post in the Forum, & All that I know about "logging" / "Selling the timber" is what I have read over the past several months. More than likely I'll be asking some Stupid questions, as well as making some Stupid statements, for my "Knowledge" about this Trade is greatly lacking. In real life, I work in the Heating/ Air Conditioning/ Electrical & Refrigeration trade, & the only timber that I've ever cut, was lumber required to "box in"/ "support" equipment.

  My wife inherited part of her Mother's farm, & that acreage is 40 acres tillable, & approximately 20 acres in timber. Beginning last Winter, a "logger" cut timber across the road, & when he was done (It looked like an F-5 tornado went through), he then approached us, & told us that "The Ash trees were dying, & that it was best to cut them while alive, & sell them". He said that he would do this "On shares" where he received 60% & that we would get 40%. He also was "watering at th' mouth" over our Walnut trees, & stated that "They'd bring top dollar".
  I asked this guy whether he did his work by Invoice, or Contract, & he told me that "His word was his bond, & no Contract was needed.". needless to say, ... I told him to leave.
  The thought of making $$$ from timber that was going to die, intrigued me & I began to make phone calls, & some Research on the Internet. I contacted Ohio State University School of Environment & Natural Resources (Kathy Smith 614-688-3136) & Kathy directed  me to their Web site, & spoke with me about the many different ways that we could "sell" our timber, whether by "stumpage", or by literally having the timber cut, & then splitting the profit.
  I've learned that having approx. 20 acres of Timber doesn't appeal to many Loggers. I've also learned that trying to go the route of a "Forestry Consultant" isn't necessarily the way to go either, for one "Consultant" after almost a 45 minute conversation where he versed me about his "accomplishments in life", then told me "he was to busy".  I talked with another "forest Consultant" & he told ne about "Stumpage", & that he would get 10% of of the top of the profits, AND several hundred dollars "up front", that would be deducted from the gross profit, but that it was "Non-refundable".
  I have many questions, & I 'm hoping that Ya'll can at least point out a Reputable source, for my area in South Western , Ohio that could advise on what path to take, & possibly who to approach.

Respectfully,

David

Texas Ranger

Lots of buzz words.  "consultant", "forestry consultant", "logger", I didn't see consulting forester.  The consulting forester makes his money from your money, and earns it.  He is the one that keeps the "loggers" at bay.  Not all loggers are crooks, not all foresters are saints.  Select carefully.  20 acres is a reasonable sale if the timber is there, for thinning or a sanitation cut. 

Unless  there is a necessity for cutting, standing timber is money in the bank.  You do not have to cut it now, you can let it grow, take your time and find the guy that can help you. 

As a consulting forester I do what my land owners want, if I disagree with them, I am polite and tell them I cannot help them.  But, I give advise for the benefit of the land, not my pocket.  It is an old philosophy for foresters, particularly old foresters, new ethics seem to have forgotten the land.

Be careful, take you time, find some one that will talk with you with out a price hook.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

Clark

Sounds like you have had a string of poor luck with this project. I think you are wise to pass on the first logger who came knocking.

I agree with TR and would add several things:

1. Put your location in your forum profile. People on here will have a better idea of your local conditions and someone may be able to better help you out.

2. Unless you know rough market values and how to cruise your own timber (not to mention the silviculture to successfully regenerate your stand) I would highly suggest finding a consulting forester. Sounds like you talked to several consultants and things didn't work out well. Again, your location on here may bring one out of the woodwork.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

Ron Scott

Ditto! to the above advice.

Seek out the services of a "professional" forester that you are comfortable working with. Seeking out the services of your local Conservation District Forester is a good place to start. The Association of Consulting Foresters of America, Inc at www.acf-foresters.org can also provide you with a list of professional consulting foresters serving the State of Ohio.
~Ron

DavidDeBord

That;'s really strange, ...

I posted a reply, & I don't see it. SMH Maybe I hit th' wrong button.

Ron, Clark, & Texas, .. Thank you for replying.

Texas, the "consultant" was the "Forestry Consultant", & I chose the two nearest me listed at the State of Ohio Web site, & they both turned out to be a "bust". We also are getting rid of the Ash trees as they are dying, & will be doing a "Select cutting" only of certain Walnut trees. "new ethics seem to have forgotten the land." I fully agree.

Since my O.P., I contacted Shawnee State Forest, Ohio,  because a "Logger" that I'm interested in, gave it as a Reference for his work. I talked to a David Parridge(Sp?), who in turn referred me to a Steven Rist who is a "Forester Consultant", for the State of Ohio. Problem is, between his work, & mine, we've not been able to talk, let alone meet.

  Since my post, I've downloaded data concerning the BMP for Ohio, as well as data concerning the crossing of a creek, & it's restoration. I downloaded sample contracts from five different states, so that I could get an idea of what all should be considered in a Contract. We do intend to replant with Walnut & Oak, as well as Fruit trees in several areas. One concern that I do have is this tightening of the "Clean water/ Clean Air Act", & the new rules that are in place for not only my work, but also anything to do with "bodies of water" now, but also that are going to be increased as of Mar. 2017 (If Ya'll need a Furnace/ water heater/ Air Conditioner/ Refrigeration unit get it before March 2017!), ... If I'm understanding it correctly, any equipment used near/ in a tributary stream will be more restricted than ever before. That is one reason, that any Contract with a "Logger" is going to have to be "Clear & Explicit"  in regards to the BMP of Ohio, for we absolutely do not want any wrong doing to be placed upon us.

My apologies for not having responded to all of your posts, but it appears that i forgot to click the notifications button.  :>(

Autocar

I  disagree with having a consulting forester, call the Ohio Forestry Association and get the master logger list. Iam the chairman for the western side of the state and we have a number of loggers in our chapter that will log a woodlot like it is there own. Get two or three bids and ask for referances, drive by the woodlots they have logged in but keep in mind big trees break little trees off. Good loggers will do everything in there power to lay trees where it will do the least amount of damage. But again there will be damaged trees we stress good land management and for myself I will cut off broken snags or smaller damaged trees making the job more eye apealing. If I would and it has happened a few times damaged a up and coming tree I will leave a marked tree and cut the damaged tree after the landowner and I agree on the plan. Remember your the land owner and you own all the unmarked trees don't be afarid to ask questions ! Good luck and welcome to the forum.
Bill

Ron Wenrich

I have a saying that good forest management isn't in what you cut, but what you leave.  As such, I always felt that a landowner should at the minimum have a forester come in and make up a management plan.  That would start with an inventory and mapping of the area.  It doesn't take all that long, and I have taken field data on 100 acre tracts in a day's time.  A lot depends on terrain and sampling intensity.  You can then go from there with a plan and an appraisal of what any type of timber sale would be worth.  But, many foresters and landowners don't start with this step.  They go right to marking for removal.

I also think it is prudent to have a consultant mark the timber for removal rather than a logger.  I've seen junk left to grow in the selective logging that happens.  Who does the selection can often have a large effect on the outcome of the job.  After the marking, the landowner and logger will be armed with the data necessary to make an intelligent estimation of value.  I also don't think it is necessary for a consultant to solicit bids.  The landowner can do that on his own, and the master logger list would be good to use at that time.  It also removes a bias on the part of the consultant where the value of timber removed determines his paycheck. 

Cutting down busted trees should be part of the contract administration.   The consultant can be brought in to do a site inspection, if needed.  Most loggers can do a pretty good job of cutting timber and leaving an area in good shape.  Most foresters can do a pretty good job of marking timber for future management.  The fuzzy area is where you inject income from what's cut and what's left.  I've seen plenty of jobs that are labeled timber management and end up being timber mining.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

pineywoods

You guys are makin me realize how fortunate I am. I don't use or need a forester on our 250 acres of timber, BUT, I exclusively use a local family owned and operated logging crew. 4th generation loggers, the only complaint I've ever had was one skidder rut that my pickup fell into. One brother runs the feller-buncher, another runs the grapple skidder, one drives the truck, a nephew is the best I have ever seen on a loader. Momma keeps the books and oversees everything..I don't let anyone else in my woods.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

drobertson

I  am doing  what a few have mentioned, we found a retired forester who made the plan, there are seven stands on 120 acres. Each stand has varying prescriptions, ones that lend to wildlife, others on timber improvements. These improvements leave the good, take out the junk, this is the tricky part, its all hard work, so finding loggers, good ones,
To follow the plan can be taxing. We got lucky, our logger had done, and worked so much side by side with my forester , it was like having the forester run the saw and skidder. As mentioned be patient, and make your plan, it really is about the land, when done right, the process will produce a quality
habitat, with above avg returns in timber sales down the road.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

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