Siphoning from a well?

[Jeff]

When I look down the pvc pipe of my well, which has a drop pipe with a foot valve to my pump, it seems my well water level could be many feet higher than the level of my pond down the hill.

Theoretically, shouldn't it be possible, by using a pump to start the siphon, to actually siphon right from the well down the hill into the pond, and even run a small turbine?

[rusticretreater]

Sure its possible, but you really shouldn't risk depleting your well for that.  Your well might not have as much water as you think it does.  I have a friend who has to share a well and it sometimes runs dry.  Some wells might fill with water seeping into an area.  A large volume of water usage could run it dry and it would take time for it to fill again.

Do you have documentation for your well?  I have documents that tell its depth, water amount, etc. 

Now if you had a natural spring, then go for it.

[Jeff]

Its 38' deep, I highly doubt I could depleat it considering I can hear great lakes freighters in 3 directions, but I have considered that. Seems if my well is 38', the water level is maybe 6 or 8ft down, as long as I put my drop pipe no farther than I am willing to see the water level drop in the well, it should be ok. Like a ft. down.

[rusticretreater]

Ok, an incremental test would be good.

38 feet?  Man that's shallow. 

[Jeff]

So, using my phone, my current elevation is around 25ft lower than the advertised elevation of lake huron and then the st Mary's river, as the crow flies, not far.  side note, I had noticed a big decline in freightor sounds on these calm foggy days. Turns out there is some sort of labor shut down on the st. Lawrence seaway

[Southside]

I bet the dude at the bottom with the shovel didn't think so. 

[Walnut Beast]

A few months ago the owner of a well drilling company happened to be helping  do a well check at my place and I asked about some of the deepest wells he has drilled and he said a few were 600+. I don't know his prices now but in Kansas I was quoted 55 bucks a foot by one outfit last week 

[Ianab]

At the farm I grew up on we had ~500ft elevation change from the house to the top of the farm. Once Dad worked out it was simpler to put a water intake 1/2 way up the farm, and gravity feed to most of the farm things got a lot simpler. Vs, letting the same water run down the stream, then pumping it back up for the cows to drink. 

Other place I owned has a serious (bubbling sand bed) spring. Large and steady flows all year round, but it was at the lowest point on the farm. Needed 100+ psi to get over the first ridge, and 1/2 way up the next one.  Then a pressure reducer to keep the house pressure sensible, no one needs 100  psi shower pressure.  :D

That spring was amazing though. 3 x 2kw water pumps were drawing from it, and you didn't notice a change in flow. Water was crystal clear, but high in lime, so it was coming from some aquifer many miles away. 

38 feet?  Man that's shallow. 

Totally depends on the local geology. Dig down ~6ft here and you strike water. Heck, in the winter a post hole will fill with water....  :D

[doc henderson]

I would start with the well pump and see how far it drops at a particular gpm.  ie @ 5 or 10, how far and how fast does it drop.  this give you a place to start to see if it is worth it.  to set up permanent will likely cost some materials.  you would hope for little to no drop.  but if the ground water is that high, I am surprised it did not just fill the pond.  It will likely drop some to allow for a pressure change to let more water in the pipe, but then how long to fill up.  if quick should be ok.  a string with a well attached piece of wood should make the water level easy and accurate.

[Jeff]

My geology here on Tamarack ridge is totally different than all around me. I have almost pure clay until you hit limestone at about 30 ft. Where everyone around me has sand and lots of rock

[YellowHammer]

Most groundwater has some head pressure, and a well will recover and fill to above its water bearing strata height.  So a drilled well will normally have a static height well above the water bearing layer height. In this area, the normal well recovery height is 10 to 30 feet above the groundwater strata.

When I was working with state geologists on our wells, I assumed the best wells would be near springs and the bottom of some of our hills, about a 100 feet down to the valley but was told water at that level has very little head pressure and so would have a lower refill or "recovery" rate and that the best place to drill a well was on the flattest, constant height ground or plateau above the nearby springs because that water will have ground pressure and so an increased flow and recovery rate over the nearby springs.  Basically, the best well recovery was when they were on the flat topped hills overlooking the spring or known water seep to take advantage of the height of the ground above the water to provide pressure and a larger reservoir or water bearing material to draw from.  

They were correct, my wells hit water at 100 feet deep, where the water bearing material was, and had enough head pressure to recover to 80 feet, or about 20 feet above the water bearing material.

If you siphon to the pond, a check valve or open air section to prevent the odd back siphon would be a good idea.  Backsiphing is prevented with a well pump because to has a check valve to never let water flow back into the well.

I would assume siphoning would work fine, as long as you can get it primed.  Well recovery would dictate how much flow rate you would get, and if there is any documentation on your well at the local county office, it will give you the recovery rate.  

A well can be "overpumped" where the well cannot recover fast enough (done it myself on several wells) but it doesn't mean the water bearing strata is dry, only that the water can't flow fast enough through the porus material to keep up.  When the pump is turned off, the well will refill.

[sharp edge]

I would forget the turbine... then wait to next late spring to see what the water is doing.


SE

[Treeflea24]

This is an interesting idea.
+1 on Yellowhammer's comment about preventing backflow - this is also a common feature on irrigation systems to stop potentially contaminated water from making its way back into your supply.
One handy trick for priming and starting your siphon without needing a pump: install a tee or wye fitting near where the pipe leaves your well, at the highest point of the run. Then temporarily plug the outlet of the where the pipe meets your pond. Fill the volume from the tee/wye to the plug, then close the tee, and then open the plug at the pond. This should get your siphon started.

Health Dept. type people tend to get touchy about situations where a well is open or potentially accessible to surface water or potential contaminants. They want to avoid potential paths for contaminants to reach the supply/aquifer.

[jb616]

Ok, an incremental test would be good.

38 feet?  Man that's shallow.

I am building in lower, West Michigan and my Septic / Well permit says that most wells in the area are 31 - 37'.  I was told by locals that 35 foot is the sweet spot. Oh yeah, no basement or crawlspace here    all sandy and only 4 miles from Lake Michigan. 

[Hilltop366]

After many years of syphoning out the cement pond in the spring I figured out the easiest way to fill the line, we use to use a bucket but that took a while and was messy then we switched to a garden hose, it was much faster but still potentially messy both of those methods would often end up with air pockets in them causing the syphon to stop then I figured if I just shoved the pipe in the pool starting at the pool end with brick tied to the end of the pipe and when I got all the pipe in the pool except a foot of what is going to be the lower end I plugged the pipe (a tapered dowel works well, think 70's coffee table leg) then drag the pipe down the hill and remove the plug. quick, no mess and worked every time.

[thecfarm]

Bury a black water line to the pond.
It is down hill to the pond?
I have ¾ inch black water piper buried just about 6 inches down. I drain the water out to the garden each fall. More then 100 feet away. 
I have an old above ground pump that I use to use in the greenhouse. That would pump some water.
But I know you want to get a siphon going.

[SwampDonkey]

Well is 80 feet here on the ridge. Mom's uncle's was 60 feet. Friends of ours have a 25 foot well, the place in on gravel. Grandfather's was all spring fed, also fed watering trough for cattle, supplied barn water and fed a smaller house. The houses have wells now. Around here, at the base of most gravelly landforms has water coming out of that gravel. At the upper farm, any wet patches where it was cleared off around gravelly knowls had water coming out at their base. Remnants of eskers. There's one bowl shaped dome untouched, but full of gravel up there. Another was mined out years ago and covered back over and leveled off as part of the field. Across from it grows cattails and willows.

[Al_Smith]

I would think if you could draw a suction and get it to flow it would act like an artesian well .Depending on the recovery rate it might take a throttle valve on the down hill run .
I knew  guy that drained an entire 3 acre pond with a siphon .Used plastic field tile and drew a suction with a basketball needle and a tractor engine via the intake manifold then sealed the little hole with duct tape .Ran it untill the engine started to misfire from  sucking water both ends of the tile in water, pond and lower creek .The same guy that put a 65 HP Opal engine in a 9N Ford tractor that would run 50 miles per hour .

[Joe Hillmann]

I would think if you could draw a suction and get it to flow it would act like an artesian well .Depending on the recovery rate it might take a throttle valve on the down hill run .
I knew  guy that drained an entire 3 acre pond with a siphon .Used plastic field tile and drew a suction with a basketball needle and a tractor engine via the intake manifold then sealed the little hole with duct tape .Ran it untill the engine started to misfire from  sucking water both ends of the tile in water, pond and lower creek .The same guy that put a 65 HP Opal engine in a 9N Ford tractor that would run 50 miles per hour .

That guy must have been a farmer.  My first truck had a tap on the intake manifold.  The previous owner used it as a source of vacuum to run the milking machine when the power was out.

[Al_Smith]

I can top that .I know a guy who used  a D8 Cat to draw a suction on a large fuel tank and then used it to suck out a septic tank . A big diesel can really move a lot of air .

[Joe Hillmann]

I think that might have been a somewhat commonplace thing back in the day.  I have heard several stories of old septic trucks using engine suction for there source of vacuum.  

[doc henderson]

might run away if there is enough methane.

[Al_Smith]

In an emergency,like a fire on board we could use the diesels at 1400 HP each on the sub to evacuate the smoke .Never saw it in use but I have seen shirts sucked up tight on the intakes of the big roots blowers while snorkeling on two engines .It would make your ears pop too .