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Bugs is Bugs and Bugs are BAD - Another Customer Story

Started by YellowHammer, May 03, 2020, 09:37:49 PM

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YellowHammer

Most folks know how I hate bugs in wood, and how I've had issues with customers in the past, and their "Bugs is bugs, and bugs are BAD" thought process.  Since we sell retail, we really take it seriously, because the customers knee jerk to bugs like they are the plague.  But this particular case was fueled by a "professional."  

So, this last week I get a call from a very distraught lady a hundred miles away in Nashville, who started the phone conversation with "I own a house, it is infested with bugs, bugs everywhere, in my paneling, in my oak, and the bug exterminator guy says they are coming from the wood that you sold my sister.  She built a table from your curly maple wood, gave it to me and there are bug holes in it, new holes every time I look at it, and the exterminator says its going to cost thousands of dollars to treat the house and its all your fault.  What are you going to do about it??"

Yeah boy, I thought, this is going to be fun.  

Anyway, it was apparent that after pulling her sister's purchasing records from 3 years ago, and putting two and two together, our wood was not the source of her bug issues, and we conclusively proved it to her.

So the real story is that her sister bought 4/4 curly ambrosia maple from us and built the table for her.  I assume she did all the finishing and even used the surface coats to cover the ambrosia bug holes.  However, the bug holes were not filled, only covered with a thin layer of polyurethane.  As time went by, the surface wore down some and the ambrosia beetle holes started opening up.  She sent me a picture, and it was classic ambrosia pattern, which matched the purchase records, so I sent her a Wikipedia article on ambrosia wood that explained the life cycle, with pictures.  She even accused me of misleading representation of product because I should inform all the customers that ambrosia wood will have bug holes in it.  I said I did, its on the web page under the description of the wood, and also falls under common knowledge.  I explained how we sterilized the wood, at higher temps and longer times than required, and when the wood leaves our facility, it is bug free.  It also turns out that the "professional" exterminator had admitted to her that he had never seen ambrosia maple before and through his ignorance or just wanting to scam her, said the ambrosia holes were obviously caused by powder post beetles, and powder post beetles were expensive to get rid of.  So he was fueling her fear the whole time.  She, with his prodding, had apparently already been talking to her insurance company, or was about to call, and they were all looking for a scapegoat.  Me.

Anyway, the moral of the story.  Keep good records, sterilize the wood beyond a shadow of a doubt, exchange pictures, and try to head things off at the pass.  She still has a "bug problem" but it didn't come from us.
   

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

thecfarm

Good records, makes good customers.  ;D
That could of been costly!!  :o
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

WDH

Oh no.  Now I won't be able to sleep at night. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

YellowHammer

I was amazed we were able to trace down the boards history so quickly, that made me feel good.  

Actually, I'm still so PO'd I'm having trouble sleeping, too.  It was a classic case of "guilty until proven innocent" and since a professional exterminator was telling her it was my wood, then all fingers pointed to me.  

It shows exactly how fast a day can go bad, especially when a person who has no interest or background in woodworking gets specialty wood secondhand from someone else.  So I'm thinking of getting a stamp and burning it into each board.  The stamp would say "Ambrosia maple has holes it it, that's why it's ambrosia maple."

DanG, I'm still fired up.

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

K-Guy


It seems YH that your expectations are too high. Common sense is not dead but it is endangered.  :D
Nyle Service Dept.
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
- D. Adams

Don P

That's a fact :D
Pest Control Operators, well, many of them, hold a special place in my heart.

farmfromkansas

Is a cabinet manufacturer near here that got some lumber in that had PPB.  They built cabinets out of the lumber, and sent it out to jobs, cabinets got installed, and after some time people found their houses infested with PPB.  Was pretty expensive to replace the cabinets and fumigate people's homes.
Most everything I enjoy doing turns out to be work

Raider Bill

I rent out a storefront that sells used furniture. The bugs they bring in make me wonder why anyone would buy used stuff.
Seen it all from termites to PPB.
The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

Stephen1

Not all DH Kilns go the extra step of sterilization. A good example of why it is needed!
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

DR_Buck


Every load in my DH kiln for the last 12 years has ended with 24 hrs at 160º
Been there, done that.   Never got caught [/b]
Retired and not doing much anymore and still not getting caught

Don P

And then it requires good storage. When ppb's emerged from some flooring the building company rep said that the kiln couldn't kill the eggs ::)

Not really, there's a problem in the warehouse.

YellowHammer

Storage is important.  I had a guy call me a year or two ago giving me heck because the wood I sold him had ants in it.  He said they were crawling everywhere, and wanted his money back.  Upon further investigation, he had inadvertently laid the boards in a fire ant nest when he was unloading them.  Duh, yep, that would do it.  However, his first reaction was to accuse me

You can't make this stuff up and I keep wondering what will be next.  Maybe Godzilla will suddenly emerge from my wood, and stomp the nearest town down.   
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

caveman

Caveman

Don P

Thanks for that :D
Every now and then, stuff will be flying apart, one of us will look up and say "Ohhhh no there goes Tokyo". That's it, the earworm is busting out for the next hour :D

Skip

Man oh Man that sure does bring back some memories , smiling from ear to ear . :) :D 8) Sorry for the thread hi-jack YH  .

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

I sometimes serve as an expert witness in such PPB cases that potentially could go to court.  In many cases, the source of infection is storage after the kiln, often in a warehouse with foreign wood or bamboo.  The truth is that careful storage after kiln drying will eliminate the risk of getting a PPB infection.

The pallets used for shipping or for storage in a warehouse can be the source of infection.

There was an interesting event In one case...the purchaser hired an expert witness who was an entomologist from a local university.  His expert report included pictures that he claimed were taken at the home.  At least two of the pictures were actually Taken from a book and on the internet (and I recognized them) and not from the customer's home.  When that was pointed out to the claimant's lawyer, the case was over...thank goodness.  Actually in this case, the flooring was stored alongside bamboo in a warehouse for two years.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

caveman

Dr. Wengert, Is it correct that if the wood is sterilized and then planed that the lictid powder post beetles cannot get into the wood?  I think I recall reading that they needed a rougher surface than planed.  Thank you for your continued contributions.
Caveman

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

There is some truth to your comment, but porous woods like ash and red oak are potential places for the femail to lay her eggs, rough or,planed.  A finish like varnish makes those wood unfriendly for an egg laying place.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

YellowHammer

So here are the big questions that are asked or that are the most concerning.  If anybody has any practical or real life experience, I'd like to hear it.


So, after a house is infected with PPB's, how is the house treated?  What is used to kill everything?  Full fumigation, spot treatments, or ?

I'm assuming the hardwood PPB's won't go into the pine or softwood framing lumber, so what would be the extent of the damage?  Would they go into polyurethane coated hardwood floors and fully finished furniture?  

Not into the baseboards and trim even, because I assume that would be painted softwood or poplar?  Probably not into the subfloor sheathing or plywood?

So, for a modern house built with a majority of softwood dimensional lumber, wouldn't the damage be mostly superficial, not structural?  Other than damage to the localized piece of hardwood itself, how rapidly will the PPB's spread?  



YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Ed_K

 When I first built our log cabin I used hemlock logs for uprights for a deck. We stacked our cordwood between the post and yr 3 I found PPB in the logs. After couple more yrs I had to replace them and we stopped stacking our cordwood near the house.
Ed K

longtime lurker

S'why I inoculate everything with borates, even when it doesn't technically need it. I'm a generally nicer person when I sleep well at night.

Had a guy couple years back ... termites in bridge deck we'd sold them. Went up, had a look... they'd unloaded them onto the ground on top of a nest and left them there 6 months between delivery and commencing installation. Even in naturally resistant species that kind of temptation is too much, there was a bit of gallery between the boards in the pack. Environmentally sensitive area so we couldnt use pressure treatment, wasn't really my problem but anyway I agreed to replace one pack of them.

By the time we'd replaced them the installation delay put it into the wet season, the creek comes down and old mate can't get in to pull his pump out when it floods so.... he tries to stick me for a replacement pump or at least not pay for the replacement boards. Anyone could have read that weather forecast a week in advance... trough affecting half the east coast coming in.

Eventually he drives into the place one day about 6 months later and... somebody has stacked a pile of firewood in the middle of the bridge. I got paid three days later. ;D


The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

moodnacreek

Many times I have filled an order with stuff I had on sticks for years only to find out later it was in a dead pack on the ground where they got ahead of themselves.  In the last 10 years my sawmill and property has become a termite farm. Locust posts are a waste of time and money now. I can't see how any wood not treated can be put near the ground. In this state all the borates are not available to the public. You will have much better luck getting fireworks or drugs.

moodnacreek

Me again. I have sold wood to people that had ppb in it. Not much, but along the sapwood edge. I told the buyer that if they planed, sanded and put poly on the insect could emerge but not reinfect . Was I lying?

YellowHammer

From the reading I've done, they will sample the wood, and not lay eggs on wood that isn't right for a successful brood.  They need fresh, exposed wood.  

The bad news is that the best, and freshest wood at that point is under their little feet, the newly exposed wood surface where they just bored a hole.  So they leave a little present, they will deposit their eggs on the freshly exposed wood of their tunnels.  Reinfection occurs at that point.  

They will also infect all the long dead logs and wood chips and scraps in a log yard, especially if trying to spalt them, as we do.  We have found that routine scraping down to the dirt, and pushing all that into the burn pile really controls them and most other bugs.  

I found that out when my logyard was so badly infested with bugs, of all types, many years ago, that I was even losing new money logs in very short order.  So I ended up burning about half my logs in my log yard, scraping to dirt, and even burning that.  Lesson learned, and that cost me a lot of money.  

Since then, my best pesticide treatment regimen is called "Yellowhammer Extreme Prejudice."

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Don P

In some reading they say that the starch is what attracts them and that over time it becomes less attractive. From my experience that must be something over 200 years cause they are perfectly content to hop right back into 150 year old wood and spawn the next generation. If you read English reports the deathwatch beetle is just starting to get interested after a century or few, preferring a little fungal funk around weak places in the weather envelope. I've seen tunnels go from hardwood to softwood so preferences are one thing but bugs don't read books on etiquette. There are bugs that prefer softwoods like the old house borer. The common house borer is another that will go from hardwood to adjoining softwood. I try not to hone in too far on the thinking that I am dealing with one type of bug, there is a bug for just about every condition the wood can naturally be in. I decided to upset their tummy.

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