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Author Topic: Repeat offenders  (Read 1815 times)

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Offline barbender

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Re: Repeat offenders
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2021, 12:01:03 AM »
I don't mind tire kickers so much, I'm usually pretty willing to help people figure out what they need and how much money they'd be looking at. It doesn't even bother me if people throw me an offer of, "any discount if I buy 100?" or something along those lines- sometimes if I'm in the mood I might even give them one. But the cheapskates that think my time and effort is something they should get for free, I have no time for.
Too many irons in the fire

Offline WV Sawmiller

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Re: Repeat offenders
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2021, 08:37:17 AM »
   I am a very social animal and love talking to people and helping them and seeing them get excited over a piece of wood or two but I have little tolerance for the ones who just want to get everything as cheap as possible. They are not the ones who really love and appreciate wood. They do the same thing with everything they buy and everybody they deal with. I think I have thrown in something extra with every order of wood I ever sold. I am much more likely to give them a few boards for a worthwhile project or deserving individual than reduce my price. Now when they try to jew me down (Sorry for the political incorrectness) on my sawing then I get real peeved because now you are challenging my worth as an individual, not just the value of a board. They are the ones who want to bring you 10" logs and want 2X12's out of them, want you to reduce your rate, figure you should cut 2" stock half the price of 1X since it takes less cuts etc. They are also the ones who have their logs scattered over 40 acres and want you to wait while they bring them to you (Actually they can't see why you don't move them for them) and to saw in an impossible location or such. They are the "experts" that want to tell you how to make every cut.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2009 4wd Dodge PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Sthil 440 & 441, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once"

Offline Old Greenhorn

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Re: Repeat offenders
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2021, 09:20:40 AM »


I've got a 1.5 man machine shop that I'm looking at upgrading to mostly newer technology in order to improve workflow and reduce man hours.  Early last year I had a machine builder contact me about buying one of their machines so I had them work up a quote.  Never hurts to have a quote lying around as, even if it expires, it still gives a starting point for pricing (around $95,000).....
Anyhow, there's a view from a "repeat offender".  If your job is to sell product, than part of that involves dealing with tire kickers and people who firmly believe that you don't deserve to earn a profit off of them; anybody else is fine, just not them.  It's one of the reasons why a producer, who sells retail, needs to run a margin higher than 50%.
.....

Brings back memories. Before I retired I was an M/E and part of my job was new capitol equipment purchases. When we needed something I would write up the justification, collect the required specs form all interested parties, and write a detailed RFQ sending it out to at least 4 vendors for competing quotes (corporate rules). There was one vendor I really wanted to get a machine from because I had seen how they were built and spoken with others who had them and I knew them to be quality. Bu this salesman would just send me all the boiler plate quote material on a couple of machines, about 40 pages, and never break it down with the options we required. Try as I might I had to fight and ask 3 times for a proper quote. Things he told me they couldn't supply magically appeared as an option months later. I gave him EVERY opportunity over 8 months to get his act together. I even gave him a 'last call' before we chose the winning big (machine was $275k). A week after the award he came in with a better price and would have won the order if he had done what was asked in the first place.  Next time I asked him for a quote, he refused saying they never won the and I pointed out that he would have sold us that other machine if he just did his job. This time, he did a little better and won the bid. Man, I don't miss any of that. ;D

Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 450, 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I am the woodcutter now.
I can work with wood, but I am NOT a Woodworker, yet.

Offline Resonator

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Re: Repeat offenders
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2021, 10:17:40 AM »
Had a guy stop in twice a while back, said he was building a shelter for his horse. Held out his hands out in a "I caught a fish this big" gesture to show how big his horse was.  smiley_horserider
Told him to call me back when he figured out how much lumber he would need for his building. Never called back. :D 
Under bark there's boards and beams, somewhere in between.
Cuttin' while its green, through a steady sawdust stream.
I'm chasing the sawdust dream.

Proud owner of a Wood-Mizer 2017 LT28G19

Offline sawguy21

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Re: Repeat offenders
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2021, 03:53:34 PM »
I enjoyed sales for the most part but some really ground my gears. If they expected to waste my time trying to nickel and dime the price went up. I had one catch on and demand to see my boss who had overheard the conversation, he had been in a few times and figured he was entitled. Boss gave a price about 20% higher then said See you should have bought from him" :D
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Offline SawyerTed

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Re: Repeat offenders
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2021, 06:09:40 PM »
 They keep calling, eventually they will say I saw no activity at the mill this week you could have been sawing for me and at least put a few bucks in your pocket.  I say yup could of but if I'm gonna trade a old dollar for a new dollar I would just as soon do it fishing and just switch which pocket I keep my money in.
A potential customer called me once and inquired about portable sawing rates.  When I told him my rates he told me my rate was too high and he started a professorial lecture on the economics of a machine not running versus running below rates. His pontificating tone was condescending to me so that didn’t help his case. 

I told him I don’t “buy work” by slashing my rates.  He asked how I covered overhead when the saw doesn’t run.  I explained my overhead is paid in advance and not his concern.  I told him if he could get his sawing done at the rates he quoted, I could not compete. 

He called back when he fired the other guy he hired because “his” other guy cut wavy lumber.  We never worked out an agreed upon rate because I refused to lower my rate.  I reminded him that “his” other guy was “buying” his business by sawing at 25% less than my rate and you get what you pay for.  He didn’t like that and our conversation ended shortly afterwards.  He’s not called back and the rest of his logs are rotting in his side yard.  

I will not buy work and run the mill at a loss.
Woodmizer LT35HD25, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher, Ram 3500 6.7 Cummins

Offline WV Sawmiller

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Re: Repeat offenders
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2021, 09:05:37 PM »
  I have had several cases where a customer took his logs to somebody who promised to saw them a few cents cheaper/bf than my rate then let them sit there and rot. One neighbor moved them back to me to get them sawed. Another called me and I sawed 2 logs and we concluded they were all ruined - pine full of borers. I don't negotiate much. There's no future in it.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2009 4wd Dodge PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Sthil 440 & 441, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once"

Offline Southside

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Re: Repeat offenders
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2021, 09:22:42 PM »
Back when I was foolish enough to answer unknown numbers on Sunday a guy called about portable sawing.

So he explains that basically we would have to pull my truck and mill into his site because of the "road" condition and how he has virgin timber.

I explain that isn't going to happen and discuss rates with him, and he tries to beat me up. 2x should be less, "fewer cuts", 3/4 should be less for some other reason, then when I won't budge he gets to spouting about how I will be "judged for my Earthly actions".  

Yea, most of you probably know that I will put up with a lot, but when it's time to Rock and Roll, I play a mean guitar. I said something to the effect that he was fortunate to have been born in a time and place where he was free to purchase his very own sawmill, edger, kiln, loader, building, tree smoother, etc. and charge any rate he believed would grant him a pass with St Peter, in the meantime I had bills to pay.

Never heard back.... ???
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Offline barbender

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Re: Repeat offenders
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2021, 01:03:00 AM »
Haha yeah when they start to tell you that you are thwarting God's will by not giving them bare bones pricing, just send them away🤦🏻‍♂️
Too many irons in the fire

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Repeat offenders
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2021, 01:16:31 AM »
Just remind them god says that its better to give than recieve.
Psalm 37:16

Offline WDH

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Re: Repeat offenders
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2021, 06:50:12 AM »
Yeah, he can go get his own tree smoother.  Last time that I went to the Box store and asked if they had any tree smoothers, I got some really funny looks :D.  
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Offline Tacotodd

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Re: Repeat offenders
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2021, 07:46:35 AM »
Most will probably send you to a small hand held piece if you asked about the real deal.    ::)
Trying harder everyday.

Offline Cedarman

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Re: Repeat offenders
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2021, 07:50:26 AM »
Years ago when asked to sell cheaper I would say I had kids in college, so what do you think.
When they had graduated I told the cheaper askers that the bank said I couldn't lower prices until they were paid off.
Now when they ask, I tell that I can get their order in a month to 3 months as we are backed up to next to infinity.
Now the only ones asking if I will discount are the ones who are afraid if they didn't ask and hear no and remove doubt, that I might have said yes.
It is a great time to saw and sell cedar.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Offline Tacotodd

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Re: Repeat offenders
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2021, 08:00:36 AM »
When I’m in a similar situation I tell people “a week from never”!  ;)
Trying harder everyday.

Offline Magicman

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Re: Repeat offenders
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2021, 08:12:18 AM »
Reading this topic is both alarming and amusing.  I realize that the examples being given are exceptions and not the normal, but they verify why and make me thankful that I sell nothing.  I have never been questioned about my sawing rates nor has any attempt been made to bargain those rates.  When talking to a potential customer you must sell yourself and your sawing services, not your rates.

I tell the ones that sound like "tire kickers" that they will have to remind me who they are if/when they decide to use my sawing services because at the moment I am unable to make any notes.  I can generally tell which ones will call back and there are some that do and some that do not.  Some "tire kickers" will become repeat customers.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Offline Bradm

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Re: Repeat offenders
« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2021, 05:35:06 PM »
When talking to a potential customer you must sell yourself and your sawing services, not your rates.
This is key.  Unfortunately, far too many potential customers (B2B mostly), and far too many vendors, approach these relationships in an adversarial manner.  The customer must get the best deal (cheapest rate) possible and the vendor must get the maximum out of the customer (never leave money on the table).

Offline terrifictimbersllc

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Re: Repeat offenders
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2021, 05:10:08 AM »
I sawed for a guy 2 weeks ago where we banged out 1900 actual BF of sawn wood from logs mostly 5-6 ft long and 30" diameter.

Really annoying sizes, a tree service tragedy,  but it worked mainly because of the help he provided.  

Anyway this was about twice the amount of wood I expected to see based on photos sent beforehand.  I had told him previously that the sawing would probably be accomplished within the minimum charge to his location, but the 1900 BF ended up being about twice as much, as I told him it would be when I arrived and saw that the pile was much bigger than I expected.  He profusely assured me it would be fine. He saw no reason to sign my agreement, had not read it in advance, did not want to hear me go through the details of it, showed me a big wad of cash he pulled from his pocket, and signed the agreement when I told him that this is how I do business.

The day went very well with him.  But when the bill came he asked for a discount.  I was surprised and just said NO, you got 1900 BF of accurately sawn wood for about 35 cents a bf from fat little logs, this is a bargain.

Then he said "how about I pay you cash and take $100 off?".  ($100 was more than the sales tax).  

I said no this is a legitimate business and I don't cheat the government.

He says "why not?".  

I don't hide my feelings well in these situations wish I could do better.   He backed off and said "it was just a question" and wrote me a check.

Now he's called back and we'll probably schedule another job week after next.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

Offline WV Sawmiller

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Re: Repeat offenders
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2021, 08:50:09 AM »
   I get the cash discount question a lot too. I also reply cash or check is the same to me as I report all sales and pay sales taxes on everything I sell whether it is $10 worth of slabs for kindling or $2,000 worth of mobile sawing.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2009 4wd Dodge PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Sthil 440 & 441, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once"


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