Steep hourly charge in MA and looking for thoughts

[danf26]

Hey guys,

Thanks for everyone's input with the question I asked about my driveway being too narrow for a mill or not. Since I last posted here, I've skidded and stacked between 35 and 40 logs next to the driveway, in anticipation for them to be hauled off to a mill soon.

I had been talking to a sawyer about milling with him, but yesterday he told me what he charges and I felt astounded. He said he charges by the hour, and its $100 an hour. It doesnt add up to me. He's running a Woodmizer, which I dont know. I have between 3000 and 4000 board feet by my estimates, and if its just him and me running the mill, I cant imagine hes cranking out more than 300 board feet an hour, at best. So, thats $333 per 1000 board feet, at absolute top capacity. Or a little less than $0.35 per board foot. But the much more likely scenario is we're only going thru 200 board feet an hour, thats $500 per thousand board feet, or $0.50 per board foot.

$0.50 a board foot seems incredibly expensive considering I've skidded the logs out myself, will be paying to haul the logs to him, will myself be his second man on the job while we're milling, and then trucking them back to my property. I am waiting to hear back from him to ask him myself, but I can see any justifications for such a steep price. It seems like I must just be getting ripped off.

I know just an hour or two north of me the going rate is $0.25 a board foot, or $40 an hour tops. Plus, there's a sawyer I know in my same town (backed up with work for a month and half), who's charging $60 an hour. Still sounds steep to me, but almost half what the other man is charging?

Any thoughts? I wont mill this wood with anyone but a local sawyer, but I'm living off of savings here, and am feeling taken advantage of. What all do you think?

[ladylake]

At $100 a hour I'd fell like a thief.   Steve

[Magicman]

I would drive up from Mississippi and saw for that.   :-\

I didn't go through and check your figures, but I'm sure that you are on target.  Surely there are other sawmills around.  Look at the map above and you may find another sawyer.  That saw price probably puts the lumber near "store bought" lumber and you have donated your logs and labor.

You do need to look at a sample of the  finished product and talk with previous customers of whoever you use.

[danf26]

Thanks guys,

Talking to other customers isnt something Ive been thinking about, so that helps. I think its true, that at $100 an hour, its all comparable to store bought, then you add to that the skidding and hauling.

You say you'd feel like a thief, we'll Im feeling like Im about to be robbed.

Dan

[Dodgy Loner]

I have paid $60 an hour to have wood sawed on several occasions and felt that it was a fair price. Exactly the same situation as yours - I hauled the logs to him and tailed the boards. The price is driven by the local market, but $100 an hour seems excessive if there are less expensive options in your area.

[danf26]

Magicman, do you mean the Find a Sawyer/Forester thing when you say look at the map above?

Yeah, there are places around that are less expensive, but if they're available or not is the question. There's a circular saw mill around thats charging 0.35 a board foot, but they can only take logs up to 18' long, and I have two 21 footers. I could always spend a day milling those with my chainsaw mill, but would rather not. The local charging $60 an hour isnt available for a month and a half, and then I know same sawyers a few towns over, one charging 0.35 a board foot, and another $85 an hour, both running LT40s.

I think the big question for each sawyer individually is, how many board feet an hour are we realistically talking about?

[sgschwend]

Check you cost of living versus the other locations.  On the West coast the cost of living tends to be much higher and the charges are higher too.

Tree species, log sizes, the time spent handling material and the size of the boards cut do influence production rate.  To answer your question 300-500 bf/hr is what I typically could do with either mill.  I did charge $.35/bf back in 2006!

[Madtowner]

Where are you in MA?  I am in northeastern MA and have a Woodmizer LT 15.

[danf26]

Im in western Mass. Out in Wendell.

[beenthere]

danf26
Consider that this sawyer ($100 an hour) is telling you he doesn't really want to saw your logs. For what reason, can't say. Maybe ask what he'd charge if you were not helping. ;)

Do you have pics of the logs you've skidded out?

[metalspinner]

The sawyer that is busy for the next month and a half is busy for a reason.  I would get on his list then ask if you can show up at one of his jobs in the coming weeks that compares to yours.  You will be able observe his work ethic, habits, quality, output and see his interaction with his customers.  Some practical experience can be gained by you, too, that might allow for more efficient sawing of your logs. 

You are entering a business relationship, but don't lose sight that you could gain friendships along the way.  Sawing in the hot sun and moving logs all day is much less miserable with friendly aquaintances than with grumpy sourpusses. (That's true from each end of the relationship. ;))  Not to mention handing over your hard-earned money to someone you like and respect.

[red oaks lumber]

first question is the hour, clock or hour meter. that will make a big differance, hour meter is only really moving when mill is engaged and at full throttle.if he's charging by the wrist clock i would pass on him.

[brdmkr]

I have a Lucas and about the best I have done is 200 bdft/hour.  However, at 400/hour you are talking .25/board ft.  An LT70 is reported to cut 800/hour and we have folks here that have done that.  I'd find out how much he normally cuts in an hour before I start thinking he is charging too much.  Would you be mad if he charged .25/board foot and then cut your 4000 board feet in 7 - 8 hours?

[isawlogs]

 My first question to him would be , wich WoodMizer he has . If thats an LT15   Then it could be an LT70 that will zip through your logs.
So I aint quite ready to call him a robber just yet.  A little more info is needed for a true opinion to be had.

[Magicman]

Magicman, do you mean the Find a Sawyer/Forester thing when you say look at the map above?

I was really talking about the "Members Map".

I recently sawed a nice job where I made $100. per hour.  The job consisted of 7 tree length logs that sawed out 7238 bf of framing lumber.  I bucked the logs, and the entire job took 19 hours including bull shooting.  I did not have to handle any logs, lumber, or slabs.  It's just not that often that you find that high quality logs that have virtually no taper.

 LINK

It's hard to question another sawyer's prices without knowing what his productivity level is.

[danf26]

Thats a great question. Does by the hour mean clock hour or hour meter?

4000 BF in 8 hours is 500 BF/hr., which would be fine, but for just him and me, that seems much higher than what reality might amount to.

Once he told me around 4 logs an hour, but each log is really different, so while some will just be beams, others will be nothing but 2xs. The "log amount per hour" seems not particularly precise. Either way, 4 logs an hour, estimating 40 logs, is 10 hours, or $1000. Estimating between 3000 and 4000 BF, thats between 300 and 400 BF an hour. We'll see what he says.

$1000 for 4000 BF is $0.25/BF. $1000 for 3000 BF is $0.33/BF.

Its getting confusing over here.

Here are pictures of the logs, the pile is about 12 logs bigger than whats shown in the first 3 photos:

[kderby]

Thanks for the pictures. 

I often run on "meter time" ($65 but I am due to raise it).  "On the meter" the customer pays for the mill when it is running, not for the rest of the "visit."  That takes some of the production pressure off me.  It lets me spend more time sharing the experience.  I don't like to document every moment of distraction. : :

It does not serve the sawyer to "spank" you on price.  Word of mouth is golden.  If both parties are fair, both will come out ahead.  It sounds like a little more communication is in order and then it will be "millin time."

Good question and good discussion.  The customers I usually get feedback from are my customers.  It is interesting to hear another guys customer trying to be fair and learn how things can work.  Again, thanks for the pictures and tell us how it turns out.

Kderby

[danf26]

Ok guys, thanks for all your feedback today. The decision is narrowed down to two mills, including, believe it or not, the mill originally mentioned in the post. Im hoping to decide tonight.

Caution to whomever reads this: Part of me posting is it helps me think, so you'll read a lot of thinking out loud. Im not asking for anyone to decide for me, if no one were to reply to this post, I still would be getting something from posting it. If anyone does choose to throw in their 2 cents (or more), I wouldnt appreciate it more.

The sawyer running the portable mill is charging $100 an hour. He says at top capacity he can go thru 400 BF/hr., but I should probably think of it at 300 BF/hr. If he does get 300 BF/hr., then thats $0.33 per BF. If Im thinking I have between 3000 and 4000 BF, then we're looking at $990 and $1320 respectively, we can say $1500 to play it safe, but hopefully its faster than that. He's also charging $150 for use of his forwarder, and $50 for his tractor, and $30 per blade. To haul the logs to him, I'd be paying $250 per load, and there's probably one loads worth in there, maybe 2. I would need to rent a trailer ($75 a day), borrow a friends truck, and haul the finished lumber back myself. So, we're talking an estimate of around $1500(milling estimate high)+$150(tractor and forwarder)+$250(safe estimate hauling logs to him)+$225(3 days with trailer), and thats $2125. Could be lower if milling takes less time, could be higher if its 2 loads of logs, not one.

Not far from that sawyer, is a stationary production mill with the whole set up. They run an "energy-efficient computer-controlled linebar resaw" (I have no idea what that is) and charge not by the hour, but a flat rate of $0.33/BF. So, the prices are the same, the difference being while the above sawyers $0.33/BF is inferred, this mill wont vary from that. They can pick up, and re-deliver the finished lumber themselves, $150 each way. So, with them depending on how much board footage, Im looking at between $1290 and $1620.

The latter mill would be more convenient and I can be more certain as to what price to expect, but Im worried I wont get the logs I need. Maybe the fear is uncalled for. Each log has written on both ends (with Sharpie), what I want from the log, whether its an 8x8, 8x10, or as many 2x12 joists as possible. So I guess that all should be pretty straight forward. As long as I take a good tally of what I have written before they pick up the logs, I should know exactly what I'll be getting back. Right? Otherwise, with the bandsaw sawyer, I would see each log as it got milled, and be able to know exactly what was coming off, and make decisions on the spot, if we found rot or if there was too much curve, etc.

I heard the previous owner of this land sometimes put nails in trees just so they would never be sawed. $30 a blade isn't horrible for the bandsaw, but what if the other sawyer hits hardware? How deep would I be in then?

How do folks out there feel about supporting a local sawyer running a bandsaw versus a local sawyer with a big production business?

Well, I hope to be deciding tonight. The thinking continues.

[Peter Drouin]

I wouldn,t want to cut them for 500 an hr . all in a hole ,have you tried to roll a 1000 lb log up hill?. and you have them end to end. now I have to move that 1000 lb log sideways to the mill :D :D :D. help the sawer and but them on level ground, on 2 small logs. and line up the centers of the logs.Iv,e seen this before, thats why I go without the mill first to look see, If there  new to cuting.unless the mill is somewhare else and your going to feed the logs to the mill with your tractor? then having them in a hole is ok, just more work for you :D :D, but either way get a bf price that way you know how much you have in your wood and the sawer will have to giddy-up to make a days pay. by the hr theirs no giddy-up :D :D :D 8) 8) 8)

[SAWMILL BUDDY]

I dont think $1500 dollars is is all that bad to spend on 4000 bf of lumber. I can sell 4/4 oak all day long at $2.00 bf That adds up to $8000.00  With that being said I let the customer pick  .35 bf or $ 75.00 per hour I prefer the bf price on larger logs. At .35 with my lt40 I can make 75.00 per hr easy And up to 100.00 or more per hr on nice logs. Today I milled 3000 bf of maple and oak in 8 hours.  4000 bf more tomorrow maybe 10 hours. So if he has an lt70 100.00 an hour is not bad. So I let them pick. Makes them feel better about the price. I'm booked for over six weeks now so my prices work for me in my area. There are a few guys around here that charge less and thats ok. I stay busy.

[pigman]

 

with the bandsaw sawyer, I would see each log as it got milled, and be able to know exactly what was coming off, and make decisions on the spot, if we found rot or if there was too much curve, etc.

I have found when the customer "helps" me make decisions while sawing my production drops considerably. If the customer gives me a cut list I can plan and saw the most from each log and have good production rate, but if the customer decides what he wants from each log while I am sawing there is more waste and production suffers.
If all possible, make a cut list including length and size of lumber you want and let the sawyer do their job.

[Magicman]

Im hoping to decide tonight. 

I'm trying to understand why you are in such a big hurry. 

He's also charging $150 for use of his forwarder, and $50 for his tractor, and $30 per blade.

Now you have gone and added much more cost to the $100 per hour guy.

I heard the previous owner of this land sometimes put nails in trees just so they would never be sawed. $30 a blade isn't horrible for the bandsaw,

If that is true, it could add up to much more than all of the other cost combined.   :-\

[danf26]

all in a hole ,have you tried to roll a 1000 lb log up hill?. and you have them end to end. now I have to move that 1000 lb log sideways to the mill

These logs are stacked not for the bandsaw, but to be moved to the mill. We unfortunately were shy on space for a mill to come to us.

So if he has an lt70 100.00 an hour is not bad.

He has an LT40 hydraulic.

I'm trying to understand why you are in such a big hurry.

Im just ready to have these logs milled. I guess it doesnt need to be a hurry, but I just want to get the ball rolling soon, so I can work with these timbers. The decision doesnt have to be tonight though.

I'll ask the stationary mill folk what they charge if they hit hardware. Could be a big factor.

[pnyberg]

Dan,

I'm in CT, about 60 miles from you.  I'm full time portable with a WM LT40HD.  I charge $1/mile one way for travel, and $60/hr for labor.  I'm registered as a foreign LLC in MA (which you probably don't care about).  There's much more information about me and my business on my website (see below). 

My schedule is currently pretty open.  Contact me if you'd like to see if we can come to an agreement.

Best of luck either way...

--Peter

[sjfarkas]

here on the west coast I pay between $70-$80/hr, but have been quoted a$.35-$.40/bd ft.  I hope this helps.