The Forestry Forum

I see some chatter about building swingblades and I'm looking to build another swingmill as well or modify mine to make it less work to run and maintain. Less work = more fun right?
I'm happy with the design and operation of my mill but the big drawback seems to be the blade. Even a brand new blade cannot make an 8 inch deep cut in Oak in one pass repeatedly with out binding of the blade in some way. I see this as a major problem if power feed was added. So when cutting Oak at 6 or more inches wide we just make 2 passes like 3+3 to make 6 and 4+4 to make 8 inch wide. In Poplar it will cut 8 inches deep cuts in one pass repeatedly with no problems.
What I'm getting at is the Lucas blade works but there must be something better. Another thing I dont like is the brazed on tips. The tips are cheap at about $1.50 each but changing them is exacting work to get them on just right. Maybe a jig that holds the tip and pivots it into place and holds it firmly into the blade while it cools would make things easier but it's still a Lucas blade.
Would the blades for a MD mill be able to be used on a swingmill? And are they any better than the Lucas blade at making deep cuts in hardwoods in 1 pass? Having replacable teeth seems like a plus but what are the cost for the teeth?
How about Peterson blades?
What other blades are out there that could be used on a swingmill and how do they cut hardwood compared to the Lucas?
Last thing is size. Since my mill is setup for the 8 inch I would like to find a blade that could be fitted by making just a new hub to mount it. If I decide I'm going to build another mill I would like to go bigger. 10 inches or more. Kerf is not an issue for me. I'm mostly milling for fun so when a blade has problems it's not fun anymore. I'm willing to throw a little $ at the problem to keep the fun level up.
So, what do you know about blades??
DD

I know that there was some talk of Peterson having a tip jig and I know that member Captain has done a lot of footwork on blades and blade maintenance.  He is represented here, as a sponser, by offering percentages of his sales to the Forum for support.

                                         (https://forestryforum.com/timberpro.gif) (http://www.swingmills.com)

Oh boy, looks like Dan is gonna build another swingmill, this time with insert teeth and power feed.  You got room in your barn for me to camp out a spell?  8)

would an edger blade work?  or is the diameter too small?

this guy makes blades, and can tell you alot:

B&H Payne & Co in Georgia , Bobby Payne

Binding blade, might mean stress in the log. Or the blade is following the grain.

I believe that newer metals, and designs of circle blades will be coming out in the next few yrs.

stiffer blades, less flex.

This is not a technology that is static. It is moving on.

Somebody out there knows more than me.

The Peterson uses a 4 bolt pattern. Lucas uses 5. So does Brand X. Somehow, I'd prefer a 5 bolt pattern, due to harmonics. (what do I know about that?) I don't know.

I'm interested in the latest blades too. What about a titanium blade ($$!) I know that band blade technology is really moving on. I don't think circle blades are caught up with the bastard blends of metal in a band blade. When they do, expect narrower kerf, and less wobble.

On a chain saw, cutting hardwoods, you want the blade to be be filed more perpendicular to the bar, and on pine, you want it to be more parallel to the bar. (Within reason)

Somehow, I think that the same is true of a Circle blade. File or grind it so that it is not hooking as much, and it will cut better, in oak.

I don't know this for for fact, but the guy I got my Peterson from said it was true.

As always, the truth is in the pile of perfectly cut lumber!

N

Dan, it depends which Lucas blade you are using.  The "aussie" or the one produced for Bailey's in the United States.  There is a difference.

Is the Lucas blade around 545 mm like the 8" Peterson??  If so, I'll send you one to try if you want to make up an arbor.  We have made 6 tooth 8" blades (through our current supplier) that are "B" style inserted tooth.

Captain

Captain-
I have several of both blades.
The "aussie" blade is considerably louder when cutting. Sounds like you can hear each of the teeth chopping out a chip of wood. A ringing kind of sound. You know it's time to sharpen when it gets loud. The Bailey's "copy" blade cuts quieter with less pressure but when the "copy" blade gets dull it tends to be pulled by the grain more than the "aussie" blade. Neither of the 2 can do repeated 8 inch deep cuts without the blade being yanked, pinched or pulled up or down resulting in screwed up lumber and usually binding the blade in the log. I think the "aussie" blade is better on cutting straight and true.

I would be happy to try out a blade.

What are the cost of teeth?
Do you have any pics?
What tools are needed to remove the teeth?
Can the teeth be sharpened while out of the blade?
Can your supplier make up an inserted blade that has the Lucas 5 bolt pattern? How much?
Can your blade make the 8 inch deep cuts better than the Lucas blade?

Dan...If kerf is not an issue for you why not just run a traditional circle mill? Then you can cut as wide as you want all day long in one pass.

Dan,

   How many horsepower do you have on your mill?

LOGDOG

Dan
I run an 8" Peterson with a 25hp Kohler and make a full 8" cut in one pass both vertical and horizontal in oak, ash, elm, and Osage without any problems at all.  I use the standard Peterson blade and one from Captain.  They both work well.  I know that Peterson has a 10" blade with inserts.  I have one here in their parts inventory.

Now this is going to upset a couple of folks and I'm going to get told how wrong this is yet again BUT

I do not have my blade set up like you are supposed to.   When you set your blade up you are supposed to have the blade angled up on the left side just slightly.  When you double cut you are supposed to put a pop bottle cap "shim"on the bolt head of the stop thus making the blade flat and remove it when cutting like normal.  I have mine set up just a few thousands off of flat.  When I double cut you can not hardly see the line on the boards and no bottle cap.  Now I know that this is not "the factory way" but it works well for me.

Tom, there is nothing wrong with your setup, mine is very similar.  You need to be lower on the right side to allow the blade to pass over the previous cut easily, but slightly is all.  You also need a more critical intersect on your mill when running the microkerf as you are.

Dan, I need to schedule a trip to 'Jersey and give that mill a once over with you before you do anything drastic. 

Teeth are removed with a standard bit wrench, supplied with the blade.
Sure I have pics.  Just have to find them  ::)
Teeth range from $2-3 for chrome to $7-8 for trick carbide/stellite and anywhere in between.
With the proper fixture, you can sharpen teeth out of the blade.
My supplier can make anything, but 1 off customs can be expensive. 
Our 8" blades on a properly adjusted mill can cut 8" in a single pass.  Certainly "faster" is a function of the mill's overall capacity.


Captain

I've experienced similar results as Dan.

Here's a bizarre thought, ???

Could it be that 8" swingmills by design are under powered to the point that full depth cuts (8" and over) slow the cutting feed so much that heat has no where to go, consequently overheating the blade causing binding or loss of tension.     

I know this is a bit out of the box but hear me out... ;)
Ive discovered that when making deep,heavey,hogging cuts  when machining metal with multiple tooth carbides its seems to create less heat at the cutting edge than it does if you are feeding at a slower rate.  It is this heat that I am wondering that if you had a bunch more torque on a sawmill blade Let's say you used the same blade with 50 or 100 hp would it simply leave the heat behind.  Has anyone ever tryed a lucas blade with such over 50 HP?

Firebass

Quote from: Firebass on November 28, 2007, 11:22:00 PM

   
Let's say you used the same blade with 50 or 100 hp would it simply leave the heat behind.  Has anyone ever tryed a lucas blade with such over 50 HP?

Firebass

Uh O! :) ;D

this is gonna be good!

Grunt grunt

MOre power (kid jumped in lap) :D :D

Nate

The Mobile Dimension edger blades might work for you... they come in a couple of flavors:
11-1/2" diameter, 3 pattern x 10 gauge, six inserted teeth, 1/4" kerf
17-1/2" diameter, 3 pattern x 8 gauge, six inserted teeth, 5/16" kerf
19-1/2" diameter, 3 pattern x 8 gauge, six inserted teeth, 5/16" kerf

There are other kerf teeth and shanks available for hardwoods or frozen logs.

All of these blades mount via eight countersunk bolts. Not sure what RPM these blades or your swingmill are designed for.

Last time I checked, steel teeth were $1.75 or so and Stellite teeth were $3.50 or so?? Hard to recall, it's been a while since I bought teeth. I sharpen both on the mill (I have the MD 12V clamp-on-the-blade jig) and off the mill, on a normal grinder with a special little tooth rest. All teeth are sharpened perpendicular to the rotation of the blade... ie., straight across, no angle. For the cutting angle, I sharpen the teeth to about 40 to 45 degrees for the woods I cut. For hardwoods like white oak or hickory, the MD folks recommend sharpening the teeth at something more like 50 or 55 degrees.

Of course it makes a huge difference when your teeth are dull (rounded corners) and / or your shanks are dull (edges rounded). How do the Lucas blades handle the shank part of the blade? Do folks normally sharpen those up and get them square?

The bottom edger saw blade on the MD is supposed to run with the front about 1/16" lower than the rear... I guess that would be a little bit of lead? I've run into trouble (saw binding, etc.) when I've misaligned this adjustment while adjusting the edger belts and run the saw too flat.

Not sure about hardwoods like oak, I've only cut alder, hemlock, fir, cedar... but the 50hp or so (VW 1600cc engine) of my old MD 127 drives both the main blade (30", 5/16" kerf, six teeth) and the two edger blades (both 11-1/2", 1/4" kerf, six teeth each) just fine on stuff up to 4"x12" dimension in one pass. For deeper cuts (those over 10 inches) or logs with lots of big knots I slow the feed rate down a notch or two. I haven't yet mounted the 19-1/2" edger blade and cut any 8x12's...

-Norm.

Quote from: Firebass on November 28, 2007, 11:22:00 PM

I've experienced similar results as Dan.

Here's a bizarre thought, ???

Could it be that 8" swingmills by design are under powered to the point that full depth cuts (8" and over) slow the cutting feed so much that heat has no where to go, consequently overheating the blade causing binding or loss of tension.     

I don't think so.  ::)  My Lucas 827 cuts a full 8- 1/2" in both directions just fine through oak.  ??? I don't think it is the blade , I think it is tension in the log. A band saw flexes enough that it is still able to ride through an arched kerf. A swing blade is not able to make this curve in the kerf.  I have had this happen in the vertical position before and the blade tries to pull into the log, resulting in a thicker board on one end. Basically the whole mill is flexing to one side. You guys both have custom built saws, and I imagine you have a more rigid frame than Peterson or Lucas. If the saw can not flex to the side during log tension, then surely the saw will try to bind up. ??? :)

Thanks Solodan,
I can cut 8" deep but it's seems I don't have enough power when I do.  I just did some numbers to get my rim speed down a bit.  In the past the Captain pointed out that I was a bit fast.  I thought that the differance between 1900rpm and 2075rpm was not enough to worry about.  ::) Sould of paid more attentoin.   After doing the numbers I find that I gain a 10% torque increase :o by just slowing my rim speed.  This Is only changing the gear box pulley size from 3.9" to 4.375"  HUGE difference in torque for such little change in pulleys.  I know this will help on my mill.

StorminN,

Thanks for the input,

That's good to know the MD sizes.

With all the chatter about building swing mills and best blades here's some info. that might help someone.

One could set up a swing mill with MD circle blade sizes but the max board size would be odd.   Its the gear box area of the swing unit that limits the depth of cut.  The thinnest available gear box is roughly 4.125" then you still need to mount it so it works out roughly like this,


(Blade Diameter/2)-4.5/2"(Gear box)=Depth of cut.

So a MD 19.5" Blade =  (19.5"/2)-4.5/2=7.5"

This means you could cut a max 7.5 x 7.5" board (down and back) and a max cant (without rotating the log) of  7 1/2" x 15".  So you would be limited in size

On the plus side it would be a very tough blade since it's a full 2" less in diameter than a lucas blade.  And the kerf is way more.  8)  And inserts would also be way cool.

After doing all these numbers I might just make a arbor up for my saw to try it. ;D

firebass

Sometimes it's obvious that log tension is the problem. Other times I'm not sure what the problem might be. Don't get me wrong, the Lucas blade will cut 8 inches in 1 pass but not every time. I'll make 5 boards at 8 inches wide 1 pass and on the 6th cut the blade will dive down screwwing up the board I'm cutting by making it too thick and screws up the board below that is now too thin and of coarse hacked looking.  :( So I've made 5 good boards and 2 bad ones. Not good, that's why I do the deep cuts in 2 passes but it wastes time. This why I'm looking to find a better blade.
Power does not seem to be an issue. I'm running a 10hp sinle phase motor.
My frame is pretty rigid and will not flex when log tension pulls the blade to the side. The problem I have is in the horizontal cut. The blade is pulled down in the front making the board I'm cutting too thick. The blade starts to heat up and bind. If I notice it binding or pulling down I'll back up and go forward again cutting slow to try and straighten out the cut but this does not always work and still results in hacked looking lumber.
The MD edger blades are looking alittle too small for building my next mill. What about using the 30 inch main blade from an MD on a swingmill? You could make some nice wide boards.
Seems to me that the bigger the blade the more problems? but I really don't know. How does this blade handle tension in logs? I would like to hear some 1st hand experience with the MD 30 inch blade.
The logs I get are from tree services or off my property. Tree services chip everything below 14 inch and most logs between 14 inch and 24 inch go for firewood leaving me the oversized and hard to handle ones to mill up. A circle mill would definately eat up logs fast but with the size and weight of the logs, turning would be hard work. Also a very large blade or a top saw would be needed. Tramp metal is another concern. Hittiing metal with the Lucas blade will cost only $200 if the blade is totally wrecked. Circle mill $$$. Using a band mill would work but would be hard on the log turner and you would be at or beyond the max cutting width a lot of the time. Big heavy slabs from a circle or bandmill can be too much on my back. The swingmill offers no log turning, no edging of boards after cutting, lighter weight slabs and the ability to handle larger logs. It just seems like the best choice for me. I just want a straighter cutting blade with easy to change/sharpen teeth.

IF your blade cuts well vertcal AND does not cut as well horizontal, is there a possibility that your horizontal "lead in" is not correct?  Are you getting saw tooth marks form the leading and trailing sides of the blade?  When a blade dives, you get more marks form the leading side on the bottom of the cut, trailing side on the top of the cut.  When cutting OK, does the blade ring when exiting the cut?  Also, is the right side of your blade when in the horozontal slightly lower than the left side of your blade?  If not, your blade will begin to push up in the horizontal cut as you come across the log cut surface.

I'm eliminating other possibilities such as sag in the track, as your setup is stationary.  On a portable mill with track sections, this is quite common.

Captain

Mr Dangerous Dan Dude,

I have a Peterson 9" (rare) mill.

Here is my list of things that can cause the above symptoms:

1.) Mill is adjusted wrong. That is, the blade is LOWER at the leading edge, than at the trailing edge. To look at this, cut a log off to a flat top. Now, lower it maybe an 1/8" drop, and smooth off the top. You should find that there is a NICE EQUAL hatch pattern on top. Which indicates that the mill track and the leading edge, and trailing edge are all parallel.

2.) Mill tracks in middle are sagging slightly, allowing it to Gouge in. This one is more pronounced when mobile milling, on soft setup surfaces.

3.) Over tensioned blade, that is CUPPED, with the concave side up. IF the concave side is down, it will act like a boat, trying to PLANE upwards.

4.) Bent blade. This one is funky. Blade wobbles at slow speeds, goes true at peak rpm, and then under load, when in the wood, with full depth of cut, the wobble tends to cut out more material on the lower side than the upper side. I had this with one of my over tensioned and slightly bent blades. I changed blades, and behavior changed.

5.) Worn pivot points in the swinger. This is a tricky one, that usually does not show up, unless the mill is under tension. I had to replace and upgrade my pivots.

The main point I'm driving at is that there is a FIXABLE cause to your troubles, and it should be found, before frustrating yourself further.

I am into the ROMANCE of milling. The saw running perfectly, the motor at peak performance, the wood all at or near perfection, the beauty of the wood. Cutting matched boards. It sounds like the "romance" is gone from your milling. And you are wondering how to fix it.

So, to make a long story short, FIND the cause, and make more sawdust! (er... circle mills make stringy sawdust . What do you call that stuff circle mills make?


Have a great day, and I hope you solve it.

Nate

Oh Man 8) 8) 8)

30" Swinger.... You got to do it.  If you don't I will ;D

firebass

as my uncle used to say when we'd get stupid on the dirt bikes:

"you boys, wear your helmets"  :)

I was going to suggest the 30" MD blade, but I thought that might be a little too much...  :D :D Silly... what was I thinking??

But say you build a 30" swinger... what would be the advantage of this over a stock MD mill? I guess instead of your max size being 8"x12" you could cut 12"x12" or 12"x24" with a double cut? How does the double cut work on your mill?

-Norm.

30" swinger.... hmmm, wouldn't you need a pretty wide carriage?  Of course, you would be able to handle a ..... fairly large log ;D

This would be a excelent episode of Junk yard wars ;D

It's not a matter of if you should, rather a matter if you could.

smiley_headscratch Or is it...

It's not a matter of if you could, rather a matter if you should.

Oh, somebody just do it... and post lots of pictures ;)

I think somebody should do a study of the effects of gyroscopic force on that blade before standing next to it ....with all of its inserted teeth....in the midst of swinging the blade.  OK, I'm game  :)

Captain

I think the blade will be too big for most gearboxes that you'd like to use.
It's gonna take a lot of ponies to run something like that.
That leaves 3 phase as your only easy option.

How big of a log can you guys handle on your mills? I know My Lucas can handle about a 60" log before I would have to block it up. I have sawed a 62" sugar pine once and had to remove the handle to roll under the top bar. :) I think the Brand X will only cut a 36" log, and the Petersons come in a wide or narrow frame. Firebass, what will yours do, and how wide is the carriage? Dangerous what about yours?  Inquiring minds want to know. :)

If the blade zings or rings when exiting the log, does this imply a problem. Mine does sometimes but I cant corelate the sound with bad cuts. Sometimes it zings and the cuts are still accurate and sometimes it zings and I find the blade has dipped down 3/16 or an 1/8.????

Quote from: Captain on November 30, 2007, 10:47:48 PM
I think somebody should do a study of the effects of gyroscopic force on that blade before standing next to it ....with all of its inserted teeth....in the midst of swinging the blade.  OK, I'm game  :)

Captain

That sounds kind of fun.  Gyroscopic force testing. Bet it don't pay real well though..  Maybe take a old trashed MD blade in a un-supported  swing frame powered by a old yugo motor then feed it (remotely) into a log till it till it grabs and forces the swing frame to do the HURKY JURKY. :o   I Wonder if the blade would bend, break or just simply stall.  As for the gryroscopic force to rotate the carraige manually I don't think it'd be that bad.  If it was too much you could always go hydraulic. or mechanical.  my carraige is fairly heavey and I use a counter weight to equilize the Swing Frame.    I once acctidently gave my mill full throatle with out the swing frame latched.  Surprisingly it was no big deal, I just felt a little pull on the handle but nothing drastic. Maybe bigger would only add more mass making it even more stable.  But the torque that  50 or 100 HP could produce may be differant ball of wax.  For me testing would most likely be on a near complete prototype.

Now I know all of you have more sence than attemping any of the above but I am going to add this little note:

WARNING: Do not attemp any of the suggestions or test above.   Serious bodily injury or death may result. ;) ;D

Firebass

Hans, the most common cause of your intermittent scenario on us folks with portable tracks is track sag and parallelism...that is if the event happens on a horizontal cut.  A constant ring when exiting implies a problem.

Captain

You should be able to stop pushing the mill through the log, and go back and forth at ANY time, and the marks left on the lumber from doing this should NOT be deeper than the corners of the teeth. IF they are deeper, mis-alignment, track sag, or something is wrong. Occasionally stressed trees do it though. You cannot do anything about stressed trees. Are these Butt cuts? Butt cuts seem to have more stress.

Cap'n seems to have a good handle on this, (proberly alot better than me), and we are saying alot the same things, with different words.

I'm good at making simple problems complex!


N

Dan,

Why stop at 30". I have 5 PERFECTLY good 54" Frick blades at the shop, if you build it I will give you some..................... ;D, Powered by a Unimog motor........

                   Ironwood

Quote from: Furby on November 30, 2007, 10:49:31 PM
I think the blade will be too big for most gearboxes that you'd like to use.
It's gonna take a lot of ponies to run something like that.
That leaves 3 phase as your only easy option.

What about using a gearbox for a bushhog?  Those are rated at 100+ HP.  Don't know if the gearing would be right though.

The beauty of a swinger is to see a light saw head bounce it's way down the log on a swaying aluminum frame producing accurate lumber. To me this suggest the dynamic forces envolved, that overcome traditional sawing standards. There's got to be a trade off to get the desired effect, and higher RPM seems to be the reason. I am tempted to apply more power and bigger blades as well, but that calls for more hold down power, HD frame ect. Eventually it will evolve into a big hunk of machinery on the scale of a large circle mill with the ability to swing. It would be awsome, I would love to see it happen.

The question is, what is the best blade for swingmilling. There are proven, working mills with a blade RPM ranging from 1900 to 3000. This is a known working range. The direction of efficiency is to increase torque and lower RPM to find a happy medium before discovering the law of dimenishing returns. Then again there are some points to consider in the higher RPM's.

The best blade would be one that didn't find a piece of fence wire just after sharpening it. ;)

Has anyone ever had insert teeth come out on a MD mill :-\ 


Dan, 

Have you tried making some larger carbides?  If you not worried about kerf maybe you could cement some 5/16 carbides on your existing blade.


Firebass

With response to woodbowl.

If increased torque is what were after with a swing mill and not hp. Why hasnt anyone mentioned using a diesel. I would love to smell biodiesel all day instead of regular old stinky gas!! I know it is a bit of added weight, but how about a new vegie oil mill!!!!

hans.

I belive Peterson was doing a lot of testing with diesel engines and there was a problem with the harmonics if I recall correctly, and the added weight was too much.

Steve, love the new Moniker!!  Shows Swingmill Basics in the Raw!!  Now just some flying sawdust in the 2 directions....

Captain.

I have played with the adjustments for the blade many times trying to get it to the point of making the 8 inch deep cut in 1 pass in hardwood. Seems to me it's not the adjustment it's the blade. It cuts nice and straight until there is a little pinch on the blade or rubbing which seems to heat one side of the blade, cupping it slightly causing the rubbing to become worse, the blade gets hotter and the cup become worse and next thing you know - problems. It looks like the start of the problem is tension or following the grain causing heating of the blade.

Here's 2 ideas for a bad @ss swingmill.

How about using a big circle blade with gearbox and power unit that mounts stationary. It would flip from horizontal cuts to vertical cuts just like a regular swingmill. Support the log from below on a carrage like a circle mill but using bunks like mine or whats on an MD mill. This carrage would need to lift up and down as well as go back a forth like a regular circle mill. A lot of big parts to make, probably too much work.


How about this idea on the other end of the size scale. This is what I would really like to build.
I'm not really sure but it seems to me the smaller the blade the less problems that will arise. I was hoping to get some feed back about more types and sizes of blades making full depth cuts in hardwood. Here's my idea. Use the Lucas or Peterson 6 inch blade in a machine like my swingmill. 10hp should be plenty if not overpowering that small blade. For a visual of the design imagine the start of cutting a new level of boards out of a log. Now mirror the motor and blade to the other side of the log. Imagine 2 blades cutting from both sides of the log. 1 mill could be slightly ahead of the other so when they get to the middle of the log they are double cutting the last board which is in the middle of the log with out the blades hitting. The idea is to cut from both sides of the log at the same time making 2 boards per pass until getting to the middle where you would get 1 board double wide. A 12 inch wide board could be cut with the 6 inch blades.  If 12 inches is not wide enough try it with a 30 inch blade.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12002/SawmillDoubleCutff.jpg)

Well, as I now see, you are no amateur when it comes to doing stuff.

I wish I had talent to do what you did. (not to mention the welding, bending, cutting, designing, and improvising skills!)

Now, on to your blade troubles.

IF your teeth were wider, (wider kerf) I predict that some of your troubles would go away.

I kind of think that the reason Peterson went with the more flexible frame was to ALLOW the blade to guide the MILL. Don't know that for sure. This prevents overheated blades.

For now, if you start feeling it bind, slow down, ease through the knots, or back up a little, to allow the blade to re-allign itself with the mill, and to get back in the proper groove, and then proceed with cutting. When I am cutting a SOFT pine log, and I come to a super hard knot, I slow down, and ease through it. This allows the blade to remain on the right path. I have found this helps with heavy tension logs.

I feel a little "in over my head" as you appear to be in a higher league than me, an AMATEUR miller!

It is all still fun for me though. And to get to talk milling with folks on this forum just plants seeds of industry in my soul.

And, I like that photo chop shop job too! I have been thinking of a double blade swing blade too. But it looks like you might actually get it done!

N

OK so what is that a pix of?... Where do I get one?...That looks awesome. 

I wish I had 1 ounce of D.D's knowledge and ability to "git-r-done"

As far as blades, my Brand X came with blades from Pacific Hoe and if the saw dr. puts the teeth on correctly and I keep them sharp I usually have no problems with the 8" cut if I remember to be in a little less hurry.  If I get lazy and don't keep 'em sharp I cut 2 passes of 4".

woodsteach

This is going to be rather lengthy, but I believe it will answer your questions:

**DISCLAIMER** I dont sell blades nor do I repair them and I certainly dont sell mills. What I have to say is strictly out of experience and observation.**

I owned the Peterson 10" swing mill and I could cut 10" wide boards all day long in oak or any other wood for that matter. I would stop maybe twice during an 8 hour day to sharpen the blade (a 10 minute task) and then go right back to milling.

When I sold my mill, the new owner had a frined that owned an 8" Lucas with a 27hp engine on it. My Peterson was a 10" with a 13hp engine. All I would hear from the guy is that there is no way the Peterson could possibly mill with that little hp engine, and if it did, it would be slow as molases.

On the day I demo'd the mill, I picked a large oak log from the pile and began milling it. After a couple of passes, I let the new owner saw. He was moping along barely pushing the mill. I told him to speed it up and go faster. I got agrivated at him after a couple of minutes and lowered the blade to it's full 10" swath and pushed it as fast as I could through the log. He quickly saw what I was doing and then took control to try it out for himself. Of course it worked quite well.

After we were done and shut the saw down, he called his friend on his cell and told him "you aint gonna believe this"!! Then he told him how fast it would saw at 10" with the 13hp engine. He told me his friend's mill wouldnt go half that fast, with twice the HP and only 8" of cut no matter how hard he tried.

When the blade is sharp, it produces long strips of shavings. These have no resemblance to what a chain saw produces. They are long, as in 4 to 6" long or longer. It rips right through the log.

Here is what I believe to be the difference:

I believe that the blades I had were a different cutting angle of the tooth than what the Lucas mill blade was. Because of this, it cut better. Now keep in mind that I may be dead wrong, but knowing what I know I believe this to be so.

If you want to see if your blade will cut better using the Peterson setup and tooth angles, it would be fairly easy to get your hands on the sawdoc papers that discribe the angles of cut and try it for yourself. I believe that you will see the difference.

oh yeah, one last thing..... they guy immediately wrote the check to buy my mill.

getoverit
A lot of sense to what you said....and the speed of the push through the cut caused the sawdust to stay in the gullet and not spill out into the kerf beside the saw blade....where it will rub and cause heat that then causes trouble.  Not saying this is the root of the problem, but sure can be one.

I've heard sawdocs go to trouble shoot circular mills, and one thing they would do or recommend was to remove every other tooth in the blade. Often found the cut to be much better...taking more wood out in the bite, and getting less spillage of fine sawdust alongside the blade...avoiding the heat from rubbing.

I recall how fast Husband pushed the Peterson mill through the redwood log we sawed up last April. I was surprised that the engine had the power to go that fast. He knew it would, and put on a good demo. Then again, it was redwood...
See
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=24954.0

Beenthere and getoverit,

Now that's some good stuff ;D  Thanks for sharing.  I know one thing for sure is I'm not getting any 6" ribbons.  So that in itself could be my problem.  I'm going to take your suggestion and work on my mill till it does just that.  I'll post when I figure it out.

Thanks
Firebass

HOLY COW Steve, YOU DID IT.  Nice  ;D

Captain

Firebass,

I have had insterted teeth come out while sawing on my MD... that was in the days before I realized they sell different (over)sized shanks  ::) :o

I agree with all the other stuff said... I'm wondering with the Lucas blades and other braze-on tooth type circ blades, does anyone square up the blade in the gullet area below the tooth? On an inserted-tooth blade, it's important that the shanks have square corners so they carry the chips and don't let them fall to the side of the blade... when the shanks get worn and rounded corners to them, you either file them back into square, or buy new shanks...

-Norm.

Maybe some water on the blade could keep it cool. If it is stress logs, and then heat makes the blade get hot, then loose it's tempering, and then go crazy.

N

I've seen some comments within this thread asking about diesel and biodiesel mills, and wanted to let you all know that we have tested, tested and retested, and now we have it. 

A super efficient diesel motor option for some of our mills, which was officially added to our pricelists last week.

I have just posted some info in the sponsors section of the FF if you want to find out more.

;D

Quote from: Nate Surveyor on December 03, 2007, 11:02:38 AM

Maybe some water on the blade could keep it cool.

Yeah, what are you guys using as the blade lube system?

Quote from: getoverit on December 02, 2007, 01:02:58 PM


He told me his friend's mill wouldnt go half that fast, with twice the HP and only 8" of cut no matter how hard he tried.

Ken, something was wrong with this guys saw. ::)  I have never clocked my sawing speed, but on flat ground I can make a full 8" pass with barley more effort than a one finger push, and I am probably cutting at a rate of about 45 ft/ minute. :) ??? :)

Solodan,

Which blades are you running?

You probably posted it, before, but please tell us.

N

Opteco 5tooth flat.

That is what I am saying. I think the tooth angle was wrong on the other guy's saw blade. A difference of even 1 or 2 degrees can make all of the difference in the world. If the blade isnt producing long strips of shavings then the tooth angle is wrong and it is like trying to saw a log with a dull chainsaw blade.

When choosing a blade for a swingblade, get one with the right tooth angle and it shouldnt make any difference as to what brand of blade. I had a 6 tooth and an 8 tooth and I really couldnt tell the difference between the 2 of them. When they would get dull, they produced short chips of sawdust and I would have problems with the blade pinching. When it was sharp, it would eat right through a log.

I could also see where a sawdoc that didnt know the proper tooth angle for a swingblade could set the teeth at the wrong angle and cause all kinds of problems.

QuoteI could also see where a sawdoc that didnt know the proper tooth angle for a swingblade could set the teeth at the wrong angle and cause all kinds of problems.

What is the correct angle for swingblades?

The standard hook angle on the Lucas is 36°.  Tooth clearance angles are as follows...back relief heel angle is 12°, radial taper 3° and the tangential angle is 2°.

I know the Peterson blades have different operating characteristics to the Lucas, such as more teeth, a stiffer blade and less rpms.  It would be good to learn their hook angle specifically....we could all glean a better understanding of the working swingmill blade.

So, Peterson guys, what is you hook angle??

I wish I could tell you. I gave all of the sawdoc info to the new owner when I sold him the mill. I'll bet it is different though

Hey guys,

The hook angle on a Peterson blade is 35º, the back angle is 10º, radial is 2º and tangential is 2º so yep, a little different.

I talked with Lucas and exchangeed several e-mails about a diving problem with my saw and was told that in the horizontal cut you needed to saw it twice because of the geometry of the blade.  Any deeper than about 5 1/2" was a problem.   Vertical cutting was not a problem for full depth.
Have also discovered that when cutting white oak  at 8" deep if I use too much water  it seems to bind the blade from the sawdust jamming the sides.  Makes kind of a much and have to cut slower to allow the sawdust to exit.  Really band when I hit a piece of punky wood.

Might try changing my tooth angle and see if I can get longer shavings.  Thanks for the idea

Steve

How much push/pull should be (max) on either the Peterson Mill, or the Lucas?

I'm curious, because I have about 5 blades, and it seems that some require MORE push than others.

Thanks,

Nate

OK, now we know the Peterson blade specs.
What are the specs for the Lucas?
DD

Dan, post # 58 on this thread!!

Whoops. Brainfart!

Wonder what it's going to take to change the lucas to the peterson specs?

Guys,

   Have any of you ever sat with a saw doctor and had him illustrate the "triangle that is formed" based on tooth angle and depth of cut and how to lay it out? I wanted to ask before I go into a lengthy explanation of it. I haven't seen one person mention it yet in this thread. KnotBB
was getting warm with his last reply though.

LOGDOG

Dangerous Dan,

I love your funky little icon of a swingmill in action!

That is really cool!

Needs just a little sawdust, and that is too cool!

N

Quote from: LOGDOG on December 05, 2007, 06:43:27 PM
Guys,

   Have any of you ever sat with a saw doctor and had him illustrate the "triangle that is formed" based on tooth angle and depth of cut and how to lay it out? I wanted to ask before I go into a lengthy explanation of it. I haven't seen one person mention it yet in this thread. KnotBB
was getting warm with his last reply though.

LOGDOG

I haven't.  You can feel free to drop me a explanation by PM.  OR just put a post here.  I am always wanting to learn!

LOGDOG-
Let's hear the geometry lesson for blades before I do something stupid and screw up a blade.

DD

We can thank Whendee, my girlfriend for the nifty swingmill avatar.  :)

Dangerous, cool swing mill avatar (sp) (who came up with that name anyhow? what is an avatar?)

LOGDOG ,please elaborate on the magic triangle

woodsteach

Thanks Whendee, that's really awesome  ;D

Ok ...here goes. Next time you're out cutting with your swinger do this.

Start sharp of course.

Move your blade in the horizontal cut 2" deep. Go down and back. Pay attention to the size of the curly cue (sp?) shaving that comes out. Even pick up a few if the ground is clean when you start. They'll likely be long and curly. Through this test, these shavings are likely to be the longest.

Now move in 4"-5". Go down and back. Notice and gather the shavings. I'd bet they are shorter.

Now move in 8" -10" depending on the max width of your blade. Go down and back. Catch the shavings if you can. I would bet that of all the shavings - these will be the shortest. (They were in our tests.)

So the question is "why" right? And, how does this affect my saws performance if at all?

Here's what you do. Take that saw (or if you have others set up exactly like it) and lay it on a table, teeth oriented as they would be while cutting. You'll need a perfectly straight edge that is capable of spanning from the tip of one tooth all the way across the blade to the tip on the other side. Lay the edge from tip to tip and with a super fine sharpie markerdraw a straight line between the tips.

Now on this line, draw an intersecting line that is perfectly square to the tip to tip line. Make the first line at 2" deep - from the very tip of the tooth down the tip to tip line (this is where you made your first cut in the test run). Then draw the next interesecting line at whatever depth (measuring again from the tip of the tooth down the tip to tip line) the second cut was at -4"-5". And you guessed it , draw one more intersecting line (at the depth from the tip of the tooth down the tip to tip line) either at 8" or 10" whichever your max cut was.

VERY important that all intersecting lines are square to the tip to tip line.

Now take a protractor and start at the shallow line. Lay the base of the protractor on the intersecting line and move the indicator arm to coincide with the face of the tooth. If your indicator arm on your protractor is short you may have to extend it using another straight edge . Note the actual angle of the tooth. Take note of the space between the protractor arm and the face of the tooth. Closed at the top of the tooth and open at the bottom of the tooth. Then compare that with your "recommended angle". Is it the same?

Down to the next depth line. Do the identical test. Pay particular attention to the space between the indicator arm and the face of the tooth. Is it diferent (more or less open/closed) than the shallower depth line?

Now down to the deepest line. Same measurements. Look at the face of the tooth and the relief between indicator arm and face. What do you see?

If you're doing it correctly, you should see that while the tooth is brazed in and never moves, the angle of the tooth and how it meets the wood changes with the depth of cut. If I remember right (don't have a saw in front of me and couldn't find one to grab while typing this) the relief on the bottom of the tooth between the indicator arm and the face of the tooth closes more the deeper you go = less hook= smaller chips= difficulty ejecting smaller chips= loading of the saw= gullets being overloaded=sawdust spilling over to the body of the blade = friction/heat=resistance=drag=less rpms=saw not spinning up to correct form (as a saw would spinning with no load tensioned say for 3650 rpm - it'll stand up the way it should vs. a loaded saw at a lower incorrect rpm will not achieve correct form) = all kinds of problems.

Ideally you want that chip to cut and curl and have some body to it so that the gullet sweep it out. Small chips overflow and begin to hammer the body of the blade. Especially in the horizontal cut on a swinger. I could make cuts vertically that I couldn't make horizontally with my ASM. The gyroscopics are different in the vertical plane.

Blades run best when geared up to do something consistantly. Same feed rate, same depth of cut, same type of fiber expansion, same maintainable rpms, same sawdust load or gullet size for sawdust removal.

Those of us who run swingers know that we break all of those constant control factors when running the swinger. This cut may be shallow this one may be deep. We might feed fast on one, and slow on the next. Etc, etc....

So that said, if you gear the blade with a tooth angle meant to perform well at a maximum depth, it will perform well in the shallower cuts too. But if you set it up for the shallow cuts it'll drag in the deep cuts.

I couldn't figure out a less wordy way to say all that. Does it make sense to you?


LOGDOG

P.S. - The hypotenuse of the "triangle" is the indicator arm of the protractor. Ideally, if you have a helper to steady the straight edge you can trace that straight line down the straight edge to leave the "track" of the hypotenuse. The longer line will help exaggerate the point.

Quote from: KnotBB on December 05, 2007, 01:57:46 AM

Steve,
I talked with Lucas and exchangeed several e-mails about a diving problem with my saw and was told that in the horizontal cut you needed to saw it twice because of the geometry of the blade.  Any deeper than about 5 1/2" was a problem.   

Steve

Did you talk to someone at Lucas or someone at Baileys? And what blade are you using. I can cut 8 1/2 " in both horisontal and vertical in both hard wood and soft wood with no problems.  ???Sure I have had problems before, but usually everything is just fine. I don't cut much hardwood, but, I have sawn Oak a full 8" in both directions with ease. ??? :)

LOGDOG,

That was  a pretty good explanation.  I found it very interesting.   Thanks. 

Before you all get too worked up over fancy stuff, here is one that you should place in your "info to consider" pile. Now, I really wish to say I did read this 'Never argue with an idiot; they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.' Quoted from somebody's profile. And loved it. And agree with it. But, now I'm gonna drive real close to doing just that!! :D :D

OK, Yesterday, me mill was running perfectly. Chips were just a flyin, and a good friend was tailing, and I was making a bunch of Full 1" x 9" oak boards for his shelving. As I PULLED in the vertical, suddenly, the blade veered off to my right, facing the mill. (to the left, referenced to the direction of cut) It moved over a full 1/8" inch. I finished the cut, and as I exited the cut, heard that 'noise' where the tension on the blade is released. So, I slowly went the wrong way, and CUT backwards (pushing in the vertical) down the cut until I reached the "point of veer". Then, I slowly pulled the saw through the cut. I went back and forth several times, until the board I was cutting was just near perfect, but the kerf near the end of cut was wide. I then flipped to horizontal, and made my releasing cut to remove the board. (Standard procedure for milling solo)
For the next cut, I moved over about 3/8" to re-true the log, and proceeded to mill the log. Whenever I came to that same POINT OF VEER, I slowed down, and let it chew slowly through a VERY hard crooked knot.
My point is that a log with varying densities, and crooked knots can do stuff that CANNOT be fixed, except by paying attention, and MAKING it mill straight. The rest of the lumber in this log came off fine. It was a big white oak log.
The general condition of the blade was a few chipped teeth, and it was pretty sharp.

There are circumstances where the blade is probably not at fault, but the log is. No amount of blade changing, or modification would have helped me yesterday. And I have a nice trailer load of full 1" x 9" oak boards. Errors are all less than a MM! (I love lumber like that!)

One thing to keep in mind is that the blade (on deep cuts) is a plane. Get the plane going at a funky angle, and it tends to keep going that way. And quality of dimension goes down. I hope this helps somebody.

Nate

Landon - that's a fascinating explanation about tooth angle and it's impact on the cutting process.  I'm going to have to look at that more closely the next time that I mill.  Thanks for sharing.

Nate - very good points.

Scott

Quote from: Nate Surveyor on December 06, 2007, 07:54:55 AM
Before you all get too worked up over fancy stuff, here is one that you should place in your "info to consider" pile. Now, I really wish to say I did read this 'Never argue with an idiot; they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.' Quoted from somebody's profile. And loved it. And agree with it. But, now I'm gonna drive real close to doing just that!! :D :D

OK, Yesterday, me mill was running perfectly. Chips were just a flyin, and a good friend was tailing, and I was making a bunch of Full 1" x 9" oak boards for his shelving. As I PULLED in the vertical, suddenly, the blade veered off to my right, facing the mill. (to the left, referenced to the direction of cut) It moved over a full 1/8" inch. I finished the cut, and as I exited the cut, heard that 'noise' where the tension on the blade is released. So, I slowly went the wrong way, and CUT backwards (pushing in the vertical) down the cut until I reached the "point of veer". Then, I slowly pulled the saw through the cut. I went back and forth several times, until the board I was cutting was just near perfect, but the kerf near the end of cut was wide. I then flipped to horizontal, and made my releasing cut to remove the board. (Standard procedure for milling solo)
For the next cut, I moved over about 3/8" to re-true the log, and proceeded to mill the log. Whenever I came to that same POINT OF VEER, I slowed down, and let it chew slowly through a VERY hard crooked knot.
My point is that a log with varying densities, and crooked knots can do stuff that CANNOT be fixed, except by paying attention, and MAKING it mill straight. The rest of the lumber in this log came off fine. It was a big white oak log.
The general condition of the blade was a few chipped teeth, and it was pretty sharp.

There are circumstances where the blade is probably not at fault, but the log is. No amount of blade changing, or modification would have helped me yesterday. And I have a nice trailer load of full 1" x 9" oak boards. Errors are all less than a MM! (I love lumber like that!)

One thing to keep in mind is that the blade (on deep cuts) is a plane. Get the plane going at a funky angle, and it tends to keep going that way. And quality of dimension goes down. I hope this helps somebody.

Nate

   I'm sorry Nate ...could you do us a favor and clarify which of us you were referring to as the "idiot" that you'd be arguing with? FYI ...we make it a practice here on the forum to avoid insulting remarks in reference to any of our members.  ::)

LOGDOG

Whellll, Mr Logdog, I was referring to meself :-\ :-\ :-\

Sorry. I mebbe better refrain from insulting meself!

(back to see me shrink!)


Nate

We have been considering the differences between lucas VS Peterson blades in the deep cut. I would like to present a scenario of the differences in the shallow cuts to hopefully understand the gradual changes in performance and maybe shed some light in another area.

Starting at 2", then 4"& 6" in hard wood then soft wood.

The questions are:

1- Do the two blades cut equally "fast" at certain shallow depths?

2- Which blade is slightly faster at each depth?

3- Is there a particular shallow depth of cut, where Lucas excells?

4- At what depth of cut does the speed of Lucas fall away from Peterson?

Sorry. I was "Draggin ya'all down to me level & beat'n ya wit me 'sperience! (And idiot's 'sperience at that!)

And, thanks for the explanation Logdog.

I'm still in the romance stage, and enjoying me mill!

I agree with Nate, I think alot of problems, if not most are caused by  log tension,not the blade.  :) Logdog is right the size of the shavings produced will change with the depth of the cut, and I think it was a very good explanation.  :) Woodbowl, I think that the blade speed issue is a tough one to call, cause we are not really comparing apples to apples. ???  The Peterson blade may cut faster in theory, but it may not cut faster in the real world. There are just to many variables, like track sag and bounce. A faster cutting blade is not really faster if you need to slow down due to saw bounce, something that has plagued every Peterson operator, but seems to be almost non existent for Lucas owners.  Maybe the Peterson geometry blade on a Lucas may be fastest, ??? or vise versa. ??? I imagine the shop built swingers are far more rigid than either the Peterson or Lucas, so there could be variables there as well that would effect cutting, and perhaps a different geometry blade is needed in this case. :)

Just thought I would comment that this is one of my favorite threads! 

EVERY Peterson owner does NOT experience bounce.  ONLY large frame ones do (ATS, WPF 6" and 8")

My small frame WPFs (I've had 3 and cut with dozens more) never bounce.

Captain

I had better add that PUSHING in the vertical is clearly posted as DANGEROUS, and I should not have done it.  :o :o :o

Probably should have moved the blade over, and come back pulling down the cut again in the vertical.

"Dangerous" Nate :'( :'(

Quote from: Captain on December 06, 2007, 01:47:23 PM

EVERY Peterson owner does NOT experience bounce.  ONLY large frame ones do (ATS, WPF 6" and 8")

Sorry,  :-[ didn't mean anything by it really. Just that there are lots of variables. Just curious Captain, how wide can the narrow frame cut? Do you guys use the same blade on the wide and narrow?  :)

Just for the record, the Lucas can bounce too.  It does not happen often with my mill,  but it can happen.  I just always wrote it off to pulling too fast or tension.  It seems that I may have been blaming tension for a lot of things that just might not be so.

Don't be too hard on yourself Nate. We can all relate to your enthusiasm for milling.

Woodbowl ... As to your last question, I'd have to say that the man that could best answer that is one who had run both the Lucas and the Peterson for an extended period of time and did not represent either company ( to eliminate bias ). Off the top of my head I can't think of a Forum member who has had both. Do we have anyone in that category?


I agree with Nate, I think alot of problems, if not most are caused by  log tension,not the blade.
Solodan ... I have to take exception to that statement (respectfully). Only because when I'm milling and I notice that my lumber isn't turning out the way I want it for one reason or another, 99.999% of the time it is the BLADE and not the log. I can be cutting in a pile of 30,000 board feet of logs harvested from the same job, grown at the same rate etc and when the board quality changes usually it's the sharpness of my blade, in the case of my bands maybe a loss of set, or in the case of my swinger a loss of tension. My 2 cents ...


As to bounce ... Bounce is kinda like the pink elephant in the room - no one wants to admit it's there. I'm glad to see Captain mention that he's seen it in other Peterson mills. I had a ton of bounce with my ASM. I'd call up (down under) wanting to know how to fix the bounce in deep cuts and it was like "Bounce? What do you mean bounce? Hand over the phone, over the shoulder... hey y'all know anything about any bounce? Nope no bounce over here."  ::) (I had just a little bit of fun with that. Don't hold it against me peterson crew.) I had both vertical bounce and horizontal bounce in deep cuts. The only way to consistantly avoid it was to divide the cut in half to decrease the load.


LOGDOG

, or in the case of my swinger a loss of tension. My 2 cents ...



LOGDOG

[/quote]

Logdog,  thank you for your explination, now would you please educate me on the loss of tension and how to re-tension the blade.

woodsteach

Woodsteach,

   I'll share with you what I know. If you have some specific questions that I'm not able to answer I can call my saw doc and relay it to you. But .... it will have to wait until this evening. I've gotta get some paperwork out. Yikes!

LOGDOG

Ok Woodsteach ... didn't finish my paperwork but it'll wait until the morning.

   A couple things on tension. Normally whoever you buy your blades from will have some recommendations on tension. A blade that runs at say 3650 rpms needs less tension than one that runs at say 1725. The 3650 has more inertia to help it "stand up" whereas the 1750 needs a head start and therefore would need to be tighter.

   Tensioning is usually done with a roller. Blade laid flat say, on a collar, fastened and then there will be a wheel above and maybe even below that comes up to meet the body of the saw. Pressure is applied to the body of the blade while the blade is rotated. These rollers can be applied either close to the collar or farther out. The closer to the collar, the tighter the tension will be. To get a mental picture of it stand up with both arms out to your side - straight out from your shoulders. That would be 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock (flat). A blade that is tight would look something like you moving your arms to 11 and 1 o'clock. A loose blade would look maybe like 10 and 2 o'clock. (Just to paint the picture.)

   I'm not sure how other saw docs measure tension but mine had built a jig that had a collar. It locked the saw in place. Then there were two air operated cylinders spread apart that would apply pressure to the body of one side of the saw. On the other side he had a dial indicator that could measure deflection when the pressure was applied. All it was was a way of having a control - something to go from. With trial and error we found that x amount of pressure applied with a deflection of y gave us z for an accurate running tension.

   I'll just mention it because I've seen a mis-statement in the past about tension and hammering. They are two different animals. One cups or dishes the blade = tension. The other - hammering, is the flattening of knots in the body of the blade. These knots will look like a round, blue hotspot.

   Loss of tension can occur from the blade binding or excessive heat. We've even seen in the past where sunshine shining in through the window of a mill onto the blade heating it up will weaken the blade and cause it to lose tension. (Big circle saws) Having a cant sit down on top of a blade in the horizontal position to the point where the saw snubs would be a good way to creat a knot or possible loss of tension.

   To do this saw work yourself Woodsteach would require a fair amount of investment in tools and training. I believe there's a class in Minneapolis each year for saw docs. I spent probably 30 hours with my saw doc in his shop going over this stuff. You might be able to find a similar type fella out there that would let you look over his shoulder while he does it.

   Anything else I missed? Going to get a sandwich. :)

LOGDOG

Isn't this place just GREAT 8) 8).  LOGDOG thankyou for all of the information that you have provided, it will take sometime to digest.

woodsteach

Here's a good link to Armstrong Saws website. They sell tensioning and leveling equipment and there is a good explanation along with pictures of the machines.

http://www.armstrongblue.com/sawshop/SR.htm

and

http://www.armstrongblue.com/sawshop/CSL.htm

LOGDOG

Solodan, the small frame cuts a 4' diameter log (with no additional blocking   ;)) and everything about it is the same as the large frame, except the large frame   ;D

My problems have been solved :) :) :) :)  At this point I feel like the stupidest person on the ff.  And I just may be. 
Thanks to all of the post in this thread I decided to dig a little deeper into way my mill seemed to be on the weak side.  Keep in mind I never ran or seen a sawmill in action other than one 5min session at a forestry show a week before I finished my mill.  In the beginning I purchased a used Kohler 25hp motor to use on my mill that I picked up on Craigslist for $500.00 bucks.   The owner said it was in good shape.  And I just assumed it was in good shape.  After all it sounded good started easy and idled down to a nice little purr and was clean oil included.  So that's what's on my mill now.  Also keep in mind I have cut over 12,000 BF of lumber with this mill.  *&^%$#@! 

Now for the shame :-X :-X  I decided to do a compression test...  Pulled the first spark plug.   :o :o :o :o Too my amazement it looked like it had never been out of the box :o :o  I mean brand new.   I instantly got one of those feelings that you get when you really screwed up something.  I then quickly grabbed the spark plug wire and ram'd the plug in it, grounded it and hit the starter....
GUESS WHAT.... no spark.  In fact I had been running my mill with one cylinder since the beginning.
Coil was DEAD OUT.   Today I put a new coil in it and fired it up ::) ::) All I can say is "i just hang my head in shame" and thank those of you that conveyed the fact that 25 HP and a well set up blade should fly though the wood.  Today (Now running on 2 cylinders) I let it run for about 5 minutes it burned off (Like in FIRE) all the sawdust that had packed around the exhaust manifold then burned of the right side high temp paint that I had painted the muffler last spring.   (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15143/muffler.jpg)

Now I don't really know what damage is if any. But the fact that I was sawing with a 25 HP Motor on one cylinder would mean I most likely would have been lucky to be getting 8HP from it.  It Now seem like a fire breathing dragon.  I can't wait till tommaro to dig into a log and see what it can do.... ;D

As for the saw blade I guess I'll have the torque to wreck some blades now.

Oh yea one more thing "Captain"  I never had a bad fuel pump after all.....  Just a gas pumper into my crankcase from the piston on cylinder 2. :'(

:'(Firebass :'(

I think that is what makes this place so great, we can come here and think out loud, and the result is, many problems have been solved right here on this Forum. Firebass you should not be ashamed, you should be patting  yourself on the back. I think so many of us are truly amazed at what you built, especially since you had never really been around sawmills.  8)  It is guys like you and Dangerous Dan that makes what we do possible. :) Without modern day designers and fabricaters, lots of us would still be using pit saws, and felling with misery whips. :D

Logdog, thanks for the info on blade tension.

And yes, for the record I have experienced bounce with the Lucas, just not very often.

Me thinks Steve did not sleep well last night in anticipation.....good show FireBass.

Captain

An apology is in order.

I am a new miller. I am excited to have a mill. (What good is a man without a mill?) Anyway, it is something I love.

Now, the apology. I have been a little too quick to give advice, and "jump right in there" with my inexperience. Some of the stuff I have took off with and run with may not be quite right. Sorry to anybody that I have misled.

So, please take my advice with a grain of salt. (maybe a whole shaker load) and categorize me with the beginners. Something tells me I may never graduate from beginner, as I am a part time miller, who is NOT financially dependent on my mill, as some of you are. If I were, I think I'd learn faster.

I have been well intentioned, but not necessarily seasoned well.

Get your facts from more experienced millers.

I have gotten a mild reprimand, and commentary from one of the more seasoned fellows on the forum, (one of the administrators). And having considered it, feel that I have to
1.) warn you about me.
2.) slow down a bit about any advice, and listen more.
3.) come forward and tell you

So, I will be reading more, and listening more from here on, and checking my facts.

I am a part time, hobby miller. I live in a mobile home, with 6 kids, and run a small land survey business from a small office. We really need a bigger house. So, I bought the Peterson Mill to build it. Having fun, but still have to get the job done. The kids cabin is my first construction project. I am trying to learn as fast as I can, and still I know that I will somehow leave something out of my fact pile, when I build, because there is simply so much to learn. Debt is something that hinders large families. We want to build with no debt.

I will be posting less, and advising still less, to none. But, I still love the smell of a fresh pile of sticker stacked pine.

God Bless, and see you good folks around. I'll still be here, but more quietly.

Nate

Well the results today cutting with both cylinders firing:

WOW!!!!! :o :o :o :o :o :o

I can best now describe it as "Aggressive"  I was cutting 2x6's about as fast as mowing with the lawn mower after school so I could go ride my motorcycle when complete.  2x8's just as fast but like Dan mentioned on the horizontal cut,  I got a bit of dive so had to back off.   My gas mileage is way better as well.

Thanks
Again Everyone for your post.

Encluding Nate,  and no apology needed here;)

Firebass

Glad to hear it Firebass. Sounds like sawing now will be much more pleasureable.


Nate ...don't get down on yourself. Lots of us here have gotten spanked because a remark or post we made was a bit off center. It's all good. Everyone here heals fast and forgets. That's why we go out of our way to make sure things always stay friendly. We're ALL (including you) an asset to each other. This forum  is bar none the best thing I have found in my milling career. The great thing is that when any one of us is facing a challenge we can post it and within minutes or hours we have a solution. That's hard to come by in this world. You'll learn more and more each day and eventually have more answers than questions. Lots of fellas here with bigtime knowledge that they never let you in on. They just humbly wait for a topic to come up where they can shed some light on it and then you get a glimpse. ;) Don't lose your enthusiasm and be glad you own the mill you do. I think everyone should be as happy as possible with what they have. We'll look forward to seeing posts on how you and your family put the homestead together.  :)


Let's keep the thread going. Lots of good questions have been raised. Still some answers left that we need to get.

LOGDOG

Firebass - that is great.  You should have a lot less walking to do now. 

Solodan - I get a lot of bounce on the ATS when cutting 8" deep in some of the hard woods especially white oak and ash.  There is an attachment for the mill that is piece of angle with a track wheel on it that you adjust down to ride on the top of the log as you cut.  It makes a huge differance.  Just a bit of bounce as you enter the log.

I was going to start a new thread but I decided that this is still relevant to the topic.
Two things (questions):
1. I just noticed I am missing a tooth on My 8" peterson blade that is supposed to have 8 tips. I really cant tell much of a difference. Should I bother and get 1 tip put on or just wait til the others get ground down a bit more?

2. I have gotten a little nervous with all this talk on blade tension. I have noticed some darker stains on the blade But I dont think it has lost its tension. Every time I have ever checked the blade it has been cool to the touch. I have pinched it a few times cutting beams and not properly supporting them with wedges. But in all cases it seemed to not overheat and still work fine. Is there any other clues to let you know if the blade needs tensioning. I have put a level on the blade and can see that it is slightly convex (or concave, Icant remember) (Yes I know the difference between the two I just cant remember which it is on the blade!!)

Any input here or knowledge to share??

Personally I'd re-tip the tooth to protest the shoulder. If you were to hit a foreign object in the log with the tooth in place the tooth would take the beating. Without the tooth the shoulder will take the hit. Shoulders can be built back up but if you're paying a saw doc to do it the the tip will be cheaper.

As to the tension ... is there a dark ring around the collar at all? if i remember right that can be one sign of a tension problem. Try cleaning the blade to see if it's not just stain. If it's a blue knot in the body of the blade then it may need to be hammered flat. Those type of blue spots won't wash off.

LOGDOG

Is it common to have a blue temper color around the tooth area?

To see a short clip of my mill with the Lucas 5 tooth 8" Blade sawing a 6" deep cut with a blade rpm at between 2000 and 1950.  The Blades not super sharp here.   Any comments about Feed or RPM are welcomed.  The added HP let me find what you all call the "sweet spot".

http://www.youtube.com/v/9Emz8d2Ow1o

A close up of that cut would be even sweeter. Everytime I see a swingmill in action I know it's just a matter of time. it would be so much easier to take apart these monsters i have on the stump everywhere around me thand trying to wrestle them onto the trailer with a 6500 pound skid steer.
There is just so much log a 42HP skid steer can handle. A swinger would be the perfect companion to the skid steer.

A close up of that cut might make we want to sell one of my extra goosenecks and something else lying around unused and get one of those dandy little fellers. ;D

1. I just noticed I am missing a tooth on My 8" peterson blade that is supposed to have 8 tips. I really cant tell much of a difference. Should I bother and get 1 tip put on or just wait til the others get ground down a bit more

Yes, you should retip it but I've been on 4 teeth out of the possible 6 for about 1000 bd,ft and the spare blades have not been re-tipped yet so most likely another 3000 bd, ft before I get them back  so it is not a real big deal.

Yesterday I cut 8" vertical cuts on 2 year old white oak logs and it took 76 seconds to travel the 17'.  So yes I do miss those other 2 teeth but it still isn't too slow.

woodsteach

Woodsteach,

If I am not missing in the cranial dpt, :o :o :o the "Brand X" mills use a Lucas Blade. 5 bolts hold it on.

Do you have one with a Peterson Blade?

& Firebass, I'd have to time mine, but I say that I think my Peterson goes faster than that on a 6" cut. That would be more like a 8 or 9" cut. I guess I would have to film it.


Thanks!

I don't fret about the loss of 1 tooth as long as I'm pretty sure there is not any major metal in a log, as Landon mentioned for the same reasons. 

Congrats, Steve.  Like getting a shot of adrenaline for that Kohler!

Captain

Firebass ...
   
   Good video. At the end of the cut did I hear a "chinga chinga chinga" sound? I played it a couple of times. A close up would be great ...closeup safely of course.

LOGDOG

Quote from: Nate Surveyor on December 08, 2007, 12:51:35 PM


Firebass, I'd have to time mine, but I say that I think my Peterson goes faster than that on a 6" cut. That would be more like a 8 or 9" cut. I guess I would have to film it.

Same here  with the Lucas, but the Lucas runs at 3700 rpms. ??? In your video the saw sounds like mine if I were running it just above idle, except the blade sounds like it is singing a bit at the end.  I will see if I can find a video of my saw making a cut otherwise I'll have to create one.  I will also try to time some cuts, I know that when I cut 1x8 16'ers I can usually cut one pull the board and stack it in less than 1 minute. Yes I do cut mostly softwoods, but just because it is classified as a soft wood does not mean it is soft, or fast cutting. Ponderosa is pretty hard for a pine, and big ole 4" knots every foot are slow going. :)

Kevin, how big is your skidsteer?  and how much will it lift. I have been looking at buying a 8000-10000lb articulating wheel loader, cause I think alot of my logs are just too big for most skidsteers. It would sure be easier to find a good used one though. :-\

Quote from: Nate Surveyor on December 08, 2007, 12:51:35 PM
Woodsteach,

If I am not missing in the cranial dpt, :o :o :o the "Brand X" mills use a Lucas Blade. 5 bolts hold it on.

Do you have one with a Peterson Blade?

Nate I believe that you are correct in that it has 5 bolts, heck I don't know I just keep taking them out until there are no more!!  Then I hope when I put them back in all of the holes are filled :D :D

I've not purchased any new blades since the 3 I  got with the mill (10/05)  I just keep getting them retipped.

Why do you ask if I have one with a Peterson Blade?

woodsteach

Thanks Logdog. I am quite a character, and need to chill occasionally. (TMC) Too Much Coffee!

I ask because I really wonder about a serious ACROSS THE BOARD comparison of the two. I feel like there is alot more to be had in the future, due to new metal compositions, and inventions in the blades. I actually think that someday the 8" circle blades will be cutting with a 1/8" kerf, and that will be normal.  :P :P

Nate

I just thought I'd let you guys know that if you desire it my saw doc will build a blade to your specs. I couldn't justify paying the high price for the blades down under so i had him spec one out for me and build it. It cost me about half of what the Peterson blade did. That was a 10 inch blade. It ended up running the best out of all my blades.

Regarding thin kerf ... we all like the idea for obvious reasons. So far I've only seen the thin (1/8") kerf available with a hub for the larger diameter saws. Not enough backbone to handle the wide cuts. I used to talk with my saw doc on the subject. He'd always say "The thinner you go, the more tempermental and costly the blades become." I have to admit though, if ever it could be perfected it would be awesome.

LOGDOG

Logdog, for crying out loud, you even had your blade built! :o :o :o

Ya know, There are lots of answers "outside the box". :) :)

Nate

Here at D&L  doublecut Sawmills in 50 years of sawmilling and manufacturing we have spent many hours & $ designing blades. We have spent the last fews years working on our blades in south american hard woods and come up with a very good design that will work in all woods. But like LOGDOG says the thinner you try to go the more headache you will have. Trust me we know . We have  developed our own saw design to get a full cut from our  8" cut ( 3/16 kerf ) and our 10 " (1/4 kerf.) We can make full depth passes with the saws in most cases. But there is some instances that seems to need a double pass. Just the nature of the beast.
Logs are very unpredictable . We have a new Auto feed works for our swingblades mills that has seemed to help the cutting of the log in one full pass. But there is no replacement for constant rim speed and side clearance on the saw.
Doublecut

"But there is no replacement for constant rim speed and side clearance on the saw.
Doublecut "

   Great point DoubleCut. I was hoping you'd chime in on this thread.  ;) I'm dying to see your new AutoFeed works for your swingblades. I always said that if I had a dial type adjustment or something similar that I could peg the feed rate a consistent rate it would help in setting the saw up to handle it. I just didn't have that ability with the hydrostatic drive on my ASM. If I took my hand off the drive handle the carriage would stop. Can't wait to pick up your video at the post office come monday. 8)

LOGDOG

The feed works hasn't made it to the video quite as of yet but we are working on it. We have just finished putting a band saw head in a swing blade frame for 2 customers  with a large throat. We have mounted it in our new stretch body D&L Swing Blade frame we just came out with. 2Ft wider than standard. This allows the D&L Swing blade to work from one end and the Band saw head to sit at the other end to be worked when needed and for different applications and products. The Large throat design works for cutting large beams free of heart center. This too can have the feed works on it.
We will soon have this on video. I can email a small personal video once we have it completed if you like.I will have pics next week.
doublecut

Doublecut,

   I think you've been hijackin' my dreams. Can't tell you how many times I've thought about a bandsaw at one end and swinger on the other end. Fact is, I think a swinger makes a better edger simply because the body of the board hasn't been released yet. So a guy can make your edging cuts vertically and then slice the whole works off with the band. Thus no "walking" of the board from side to side through an edger.

LOGDOG

What was the throat size on the bandmills Doublecut ???

I don't know why, but I think that a band mill swing mill combo, with some kind of articulating bunks, to compensate for taper will become a hot item.

Nate

How do you guys compensate for taper on the Peterson? The Lucas adjusts up and down on the end frames. so it is real easy to make the adjustment.  I mill alot of Incense Cedar, and it can just not be milled effectively  unless you have a way to adjust for taper. It is not uncommon for a butt log to be 36" on one end and 24" on the other end of a 16. :-\  If I set mine up permanately I will have to add a bunk system with toe boards.

You could you some sort of jack as a toe board?I have done this on my manual mill.This really takes the time on a log that is only a foot through.With a 36"log the time would be well spent.I realize it would be a bother to do,but it's simple and cheap.

Throat is 9ft and between the guides it is 37"  Runs with a 30 H.P has it's own Optional feed works.
We have a stainless steel frame option as well.
Doublecut

We have a Bunk system that has a taper attachment built in. The bunks are a independent piece that can be placed in between the rails  and have their own manual hydraulic lift taper attachment to lift the log up and down for taper.
doublecut

Do you have a pic of the bunks? how big are they and what are they made of? are you going to sell them separatley?

There are a couple different types of 12v jacks out there for those of you looking for that type of diy toe board.

I take and figure out how much taper is in the log and put that many  inches of cribbing under the bunk before I roll the log up onto it.

I just wanted to mention something to you folks who are swingers or are interested in the concept. I just had a chance to view for the first time today DoubleCuts product video. If you haven't seen it, you owe it to yourself to get a copy. I could ramble on but watch it and you'll see what I mean.

I wanted to mention a noteable difference that I saw that is relevant to what we've been talking about here in this thread. I noticed that his saws do not have vents in the body of the blade. On my 10" ASM blades I had vents in them. I believe they had the ability to put carbide shavers of a sort in there. But we didn't. The only blade that didn't have them was the one I had built. Here's the thing about those vents - you can't run the roll tensioner over them. You can only roll on either side of them. This can pose a problem in the leveling and tensioning process. Just something i noticed and wanted to introduce to the thread.

LOGDOG

LOGDOG- What are the carbide shaver bits mention?
Fill me in.
And of course - You got a pic?
DD

He's talking about strobe knives.  We've tried them, but they put too much of a load on the mill to be effective in essentially planing the surface. 

I use them in our blades, but they are placed differently and are smaller than the "down under" originals.  We've made blades without as well.  The next batch may indeed be strobeless reduce the cost of the plate, they really serve no purpose to our application.

Captain

Just for the record, neither one of my Peterson 10" blades had vent holes in them. They were all solid blades with 1/4" tips.

My Opteco blades are solid as well.

Quote from: Captain on December 10, 2007, 09:49:21 PM
He's talking about strobe knives.  We've tried them, but they put too much of a load on the mill to be effective in essentially planing the surface. 

I use them in our blades, but they are placed differently and are smaller than the "down under" originals.  We've made blades without as well.  The next batch may indeed be strobeless reduce the cost of the plate, they really serve no purpose to our application.

Captain

:-\ Wish I'd have known that in the buying process.

LOGDOG

In our experience Strobes are only really beneficial when stacking blade on one arbor like a gang edger or gang rip. We tried the strobes but were never satisfied with the performance and it robbed to much power . So we never realeased any to the market place.
The saw blade is what any mill is really about. And if they are not working right then it renders the whole mill useless, which most will agree.
Our new D&L swing blades design that we are now currently using have a built in raker system to clear and cut and introduce air. We have found this to be very successful design in our testing in hard woods in  south america.
It is a delicate thing to play with a saw blade and when it is not engineered correctly or maintianed it can sure throw a heap of trouble on one's shoulders. I was lucky i had a good teacher with the over 50 years of experience through my family and father.
We are in th process of patenting a Circular blade as we speak that we believe will be the most revolutionary blade ever seen. We hope to have that in 2008.
doublecut

OK, Mr. Double Cut, you sure have my interest!

I was already dreaming of a way to introduce air into the shavings, and it sounds like you are floating way out there ahead of me!

My questions:

What arbor is Doublecut using?

Will you be manufacturing one for the Peterson? (four bolt arbor)

Is your blade design real sensitive to speed, (As in the Peterson apparently turns slower than a Lucas)?

And, another side note: Most swingmills sold in USA seem to be 8" models. (my impression). Will the 180° swinger tend to RE-introduce the 6" model, as the intense ease of double cutting with a 180° model seems to make sense. In other words, a 6" one that is set up perfectly could really be the cat's meow! Most of the wood I cut, I don't need wider boards than 12".
6" mills can use narrower kerf, and it seems to me (in my head) that they would wander less in cutting, making double cutting easier, as the cuts line up better.

Thanks,

Nate

I am running a Peterson 10" WPF with factory blade. I have had no problems WHATSOEVER with the blade.

That is of course unless you want to count the time that I knocked most of the teeth off of one of the blades when I hit metal. ;D Yes, it was my fault. :o

Jim

That's good Jim. Glad you haven't had any problems with your blade. How many board feet have you got on that new mill now? She running better with the new sprocket? I keep waiting to see some pics. You know how we are about pics here on the forum. :)

LOGDOG

Hi guys and gals. :)

Just a quick note on the blades, the "slots" are there for a couple of reasons which have not yet been mentioned, we have spent lots on R&D with the blades, types, sizes, speeds etc as you can all well imagine. :P
They serve 4 main purposes,
1 You can put the strobe blades in them, this can use a bit of the hp on the mill, but are good for when you are dealing with the "fluffy" timbers as they clean up the cut and prevent friction which becomes heat which equals loss of tension in the blades as we all know.
2 They also allow a larger amount of water to get to the other side of the blade, if you had a hot piece of flat metal and poured water on one side, what happens? Thats right, it cups, same as  a blade. If it cups then it is not running true, again, more heat, loss of tension.
3 The gullets are usually overlooked in servicing by sawdoctors in a rush. When they get rounded the sawdust doesn't get cleared as efficently, then it goes to the side of the blade, those slots will help as gullets and assist with the throwing out of the sawdust when needed.
4. They look cool 8) (just thought tht I would put that one into see who reads this to the end.)

As mentioned, alot of time and dollars but this is why we down under do our blades as such. I would believe that many other manufacturers see the benefits of how and why we do them as such and are doing simular/same sort of thing now. Even the number of teeth on the mills.
Here is a quick story on that.

I was with Carl Peterson helping him at an A&P show with his first mill. We went to do cut number one, all going well, cut two, still going strong, about 1/3 through this log and "TING". First time I heard that noise, (not the last either) we had about 20 teeth on this blade, it left us 4, we had no spare blade so we decided to biff that log, get in another and start again. To our surprise, it cut cleaner and faster with the 4 teeth left.
True story, that is how we came about to using such few teeth on the blades.
So there are times in ones life as we all know that accidents such as ours are blessings in disguse.

Hope I have not bored you.
BTW. We are in disscusions with a couple of blade manufacturers in the USA to do our blades for us there. This way for those Peterson owners, they can purchase their approved blades, from us via USA without worrying about warranty issues etc.

Chris Browne

Nate Surveyor :
Yes the new blades will fit any mill. The blade are engineered for up to a certain speed.
But all this will come forth soon.
Doublecut

With respect to the point that was made about the strobe knife slots dispersing water, we've studied and considered this.  The centrifical force and circular motion of the blade dos not allow the water to simply "fall through" the holes.  The water does in essence cool the plate when copious amounts are applied, but is is rather like the mud puddles warping hot brake rotors argument to suggest warping of the blade is possible by applying on one side when it is rotating and in the cut.  It may possibly if poured on a hot and stationary blade.   Water effectively cools by lubricating the cut,and also has positive benefits on some species in carrying/removing chips in some species.  It also keeps the fine dust down  :).   We like water, but mill more often without it for one reason or another.

I hope you guys don't mind if I disagree on a couple of points mentioned here.

First I have to say that the notion of my water trickle from my ASM dripping on my blade (which is spinning at 3650 rpm +/- reaching the other side of the blade (migrating through the strobes)in either the horizontal plane or the vertical plane is just flat out unlikely. Physics says no. The water lube system was so inefficient on my ASM that in the vertcal plane it wasn't getting water on it anyway. The drip mechanism was mounted to the armature with the blade. In the horizontal position the water would drip straight down onto the blade. But in the vertical position, that armature swings 90 degrees and now (because of gravity) the water still wants to drip down. Only problem - the blades not under it - it's to the side. A better system albeit more expensive system would be a pressurized system similar to WoodMizers Lubemizer which has the ability to irrigate both sides of the blade under pressure in both the vertical plane and horizontal plane. Then of course you'd have to figure out how to do it without it getting in the way while double cutting. Also I believe that with proper side clearance of the teeth to the blade the need for water becomes less.


As to strobes robbing hp. - I didn't have any to spare. With 27 hp I was already underpowered to pull a full 10" cut well. The rule of 5 hp per inch of thickness is hard to get away from. I know some have said that they could do it. If things were right I could do it in the vertical plane  if I would baby it. But I'd put money on the table that it's not feasible/ practical with that hp and a 10'' blade to pull those full cuts all day efficiently and have any amount of production. IMHO

Also, a rounded gullet (as slightly round as they may get if you're speaking of the edge of the blade where it meets the profile of the gullet) is not near as likely to be at fault for sawdust spilling over onto the body of the blade as is the geometry of the tooth angle changing and producing smaller chips instead of curls that are easily rolled out of the cut by the blade. If you're talking about the actual shape of the gullet changing then that's some cheap steel in that blade. Also, an excess number of teeth creating too much of a chip load can contribute to over loading the blade.

It's also still a material fact that the strobes interrupt the process of roll tensioning and leveling a blade. See the Armstrong website that I posted earlier in the thread. Note the different approaches to roll tensioning. I don't make this stuff up.

Also, if the strobes or slots were the answer why not have all the mills in your line up using them? It's been mentioned here that some didn't have strobes. Just thoughts that come to mind. Not trying to be argumentative I promise.

Here's my thought on R&D. I think we're it. The sawyers that buy mills, identify things that need to be improved, and either do it ourselves or tell the manufacturer about it and then they address it. Woodmizer is humble enough to say that their best ideas have come from sawyers running the mills and having ideas that ultimately endup on a blueprint and then in production on new mills. For progress to occur though someone has to say, "You know what? You're right, there's a better way to do that. Show me what you've got in mind." I think that's one of the good things to come from this thread. Here's a mix of guys using different brands of machines facing similar challenges posed by the law of physics. This kind of brainstorming can lead to progress.

LOGDOG

Quote from: LOGDOG on December 12, 2007, 09:29:08 AM
The rule of 5 hp per inch of thickness is hard to get away from.

This is another area that concerns me. If a half pass is made, (3" then 6") or (4" then 8") the second half pass that completes the cut takes the same amount of time, the same amount of HP, the same amount of feed pressure and has the same load sounds comming from the motor as the cut is being made ..... right? .... Or does it? ?

Is there a different geometry within the two process that causes either the first or second cut to be theoretically easier and faster to cut?

I know it is more complex, but what about a HOLLOW shaft, with an air & water hole in the center of it. And, a few grooves in the mid portion of the blade, to allow the air and water to escape from the middle, some on one side, and some on the other.

And some 40 psi air pressure, with a little water added in, being fed into it.

Now, we have POSITIVE air pressure and water added to both sides evenly, and making a cushion of air on both sides of the blade. This provides cooling, and better blade tracking.

It might be a hair brained idea, but hey, not all of us are bald! :D :D

Nate

Woodbowl,

  In your illustration the chip load on the second half of the cut should be near identical to the first half of the cut because when you come back for the second half there is only air in the first half. Almost as if it's not there. That triangle I described earlier in the thread would illustrate this because it's only the first 3 or 4 " down the tip to tip line (in either scenario you mentioned) that is actually doing the work. There could be a difference to how it feels if there were a misalignment of the blade present causing the first half of the cut to rub and bind on the face of the blade but it would half to be out of whack pretty good to get that. As to sound, motor load may sound the same but the harmonics of the blade may sould different. Liken it to a couple of pop bottles. One filled 1/4 of the way with water and one filled one half of the way. Each will produce a different sound if you tap them or blow into them. In the second half of the cut more of the blade is covered and sound will be produced and escape differently.

Nate,

   I like the idea of adding air to a cut. But then we'd have to address the compressor power issue in the portable application of milling. Stationary wouldn't be so hard.


LOGDOG

2 gallon air tank on the Peterson, with a small compressor, that fills it, and as you enter the cut, pressing the mill, you activate the air valve, by your hand's pressure, to push it through the log. Seems do-able to me!

(Armchair General)

N

Tagged on to the air idea ...I'm curious to see what DoubleCut has come up with to introduce more air into the cut.

LOGDOG

I"ve been sorta following this thread so forgive me if my input isn't relevant here. I come from a long background operating Mobile Dimension mills, which are essentially a bigger swingblade mill that doesn't swing.
These mills use what might be considered standard circle sawblades that use inserted teeth that are held it with a tooth shank. It is this shank that does the work of pushing the sawdust out of the cut. Has anyone tried to duplicate this in the swingblade design?
Maybe a just a hardened surface brazed into the gullet would help?
With the MD these shanks would lose a bit of their edge and need replaced periodically and it was obvious then how much they contributed to the sawdust removal.

Steve
???

Hey Steve, thanks for chiming in.  I have run blades on the swingmill with standard "B9" bits and shanks.  Honestly, the chips were a bit smaller than I was accustomed to.  Feed speeds were a bit slower and harder to push manually, the angle of the tooth was increased about 5 degrees on the ones that I used.  I should also mention that the kerf was .030" wider as well.

In an application where I was cutting a lot of nail ridden urban timber, It would be the way to go.  I prefer the speed and effort of the standard carbide tip setup to my angle preference, and being more dilligent with the metal detector.

Hey, I found those pics of us on the "big island" again the other day, that was a fun visit.

Captain

Quote from: Steve on December 12, 2007, 01:07:50 PM
I come from a long background operating Mobile Dimension mills, which are essentially a bigger swingblade mill that doesn't swing.

Steve
???

My little brother used to ask mom for a peanut butter sandwich, WITHOUT peanut butter!

We all knew what he wanted was a HONEY sandwich! (he was about 5 yrs old, and the baby of the family, and he ALWAYS got pampered!)

Maybe try one of Captain's blades, as he has done alot of research on this, and give us some feedback.

Right now, I'm running a 9" mill, but have part of the equation solved to bring it back to an 8" mill. when I get that done, I plan to TRY a number of different blades, in various woods, and develop my own opinion. One of Capitan's blades is on my list.

I am fascinated with stuff I cannot have! :D :D

And, I want a swinger that does it ALL!! He he!

Nate

Hey Captain

Yeah that was a nice visit.  To this day you are the only forum member that I've met in person. Sawmill John was close but I think the beaches got him. If you get out to Oregon you'll have to stop by again. My shop isn't much bigger here but this one has walls!

Hey all,

Been here in the back ground reading your posts, makes for some interesting reading as always!

Here's what I think...

The first horizontal cut is less efficient because it is establishing a datum cut, the tooth may deflect up or down starving horspower. The second horizontal cut will be guided by the upper and lower surface of the first cut, focusing the horse power in a specific region (making it easy).

The water through the holes?
Sure I agree that the water will not jump through the holes to the other side of the blade due to the RPM, but when the blade is entering its cut the water is collecting at the edge of the entry to the cut, forcing into the hole. Once the water is within this area it can only got 2 places out the top or out the bottom. I've used both blades with/with out. One is definately better at cooling the blade.


The strobes do a great job at first, but then how do you sharpen them? The strobes will take more and more horse power as they get dull. Simply dress the strobe hole edges without using strobe teeth. This alone will emprove the cut.

Yep Petersons really did need that extra nipple at the end of the secondary to get the water to the vertical blade. They do have the nipple as an upgrade if any one is interested?

Cheers guys always reading. Just my thoughts.

Good to hear from you Jake, you've been gone too long.
:)
Captain

Here's a link for y'all that I came across. Very good stuff. Would be something good to save to your document file for reference.

LOGDOG

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/misc/circsaw.pdf

Well I've had a chance to do some real sawing since I got my engine running on both cylinders. 

I  have to say it cuts like a dream now.  The only thing I can say about the cutting action is if I push it too fast and hit a knot or stress wood the blade sometimes will deflect a bit but I can shove it through the log at a ridiculously fast rate.    Today I was messing around and shoved the saw so fast in the log it made the Vee belts squeak ;D ;D  I really don't need to go there but wanted to see what "wood" happened ;).   I know I would have the power to add more teeth.  My guess is more teeth=more Gullet=faster chip removal=faster feed rate, at least till you run out of power???.   Soon as I can I will order one of the Captains blades.  It'll be fun to see the differance.  I don't think I like the Idea of a thin kerf circle blades because of the deflection issue.  In my opinion I think we should let the band saws keep the well deserved title of "Thin Kerf"

Firebass

I retip my blades some of the time( don't have the time to do it all the time) It is patterned after a Peterson jig and it works very well; better than my saw doc. They just bought me a blade because they messed up. I will be retipping all of my blades from now on. I get my tips from B.H.Payne right now and Peterson, anyone have any good sources?

Russ 

Russ, Timberpro is a FF sponsor and our resident Peterson expert.  They stock carbide tips, silver solder, flux, retipping fixtures - you name it.

Their carbide quality is a bit higher then the average wood carbide too.

You can get to their web site by clicking the link to the below left.

Scott

Scott, Thanks, I 'll get in touch with Timberpro.

I've just registered and have read the thread here.  Been milling for about 22 years part time with a band mill and milling for 150 hours with a Lucas.  Western Red Cedar is no problem but the Fir can be tough.  Hate to say it but I'm delighted to see that others are having the same problems with blades having a mind of their own.  About ready to render my mill to the deep six but now have some faith!  Many great posts and hints and am greatful for the effort.  My problems have been in the vertical cut 8" deep and the blade pulling (away from the arbor) and binding.  Seems to be tension related.  Loss of blade tension is inversely related to my tension.  I've read that it takes only a small degree of heat to lose tension.  I agree that it would be interesting to put some water on the far side of the blade and will try some ideas.  Again, great to be here and thanks for all the input.

Hey Drew,

Welcome to the forum!

I just read a good portion of this thread and it really rocked my world!!! Glad the forum exists and figured that any new swingmillers should read this thread.
A wealth of information!!!!! 8)

This post on swing mills had lots of good info ,  as it's ten years old some info has changed .  Doing searches on any of the people posting is a great place to start a swingmill education.