Drying Amboyna Burl

[Den Socling]

Sergey,

Sorry but I made a bad joke. From business associates, I hear that it is very difficult to do business with Russian companies because of the lawlessness in many areas. Most people would be very concerned about shipping expensive wood to former republics. Similarly, everybody says 'watch the Chinese as they are experts at reverse engineering'. Therefore, I'm not shipping any vac kilns to China.

Den

[serg]

Den, I the participant of the American forum, therefore in Russia is changes in democracy and freedom!
In Russia there are changes in economic freedom.
Example of a family affair on manufacture of a floor from an oak.
The price of 10 vacuum drying chambers on 12 М3 loadings of a board of an oak thickness of 32 mm-------------284 000.00 $
The price of machine tools, the tool for manufacture of a floor from an oak-------------100 000.00 $
Total:-------------384 000.00 $
For 1 month it is possible to dry up 240 М3 an oak thickness of 32 mm to make 7 200 М2 a floor thickness of 27 mm, humidity of 6 %.
1 М3 = 30М2
Purchase of a crude oak at the price of 400.00 $ 1М3 х 240 =--------------96 000.00 $
The automobile, delivery--------------5 000.00 $
Payment--------------10 000.00 $
Payment of the electric power---------------4 000.00 $
Amortization of machine tools, taxes, rent, other charges---------------40 000.00 $
Total for 1 month--------------155.000.00 $
The price 1М2 a floor from an oak thickness of 27 mm humidity of 6 % = 40.00 $ in Moscow
7 200 М2 х 40.00 $ = 288 000.00 $
288 000.00 $-155 000.00 $ =133 000.00 $
For 1 year 133 000.00 $ х12 = 1 596 000.00 $
96 000.00 $ to give to children's fund on charity.
Result: 1 5000 000.00 $.


Den. In calculations I could make a mistake, but it does not mean that in Russia there are no changes.
Time of mistrust and many problems from one year per one year, leaves in the past!
Moscow firm GLOBAL EDGE for a long time works with the American firms on sale of the American machine tools in Russia, it is excellent(different).
October, 25 in Moscow the exhibition on work with a wood begins. Has arrived 70 firms of the world, including from America.
Time of changes means has come.
The best regards. Sergey.

[Chairman]

Den:
Thanks for getting involved in the discussion. Nice office trim by the way. I have sent you an email with two photos of the wood. Hope I can talk you into getting involved.

Serg:
Thanks again for your offer of drying in Latvia but without a long standing business relationship I would be very nervous sending my client's wood so far into a country in which I would have little control over the custody of the wood.
Parker

[serg]

Hello!
Thank for trust!
I think as to receive in Moscow or Latvia your preparations.
50х50х100 mm
60х60х100 mm
70х70х100 mm
90х90х100 mm
I shall dry at once all in one vacuum chamber.
Guarantee of 100 %
It is ready to pay all charges.
Sergey.

[rerednaw]

Vacuum drying can be controlled perfectly if you can set the vapor pressure of the water in the wood and then precisely control the chamber pressure. You can make water vaporize from inside the wood. But this doesn't insure quality. A vac kiln can certainly cause cracks. You have to add humidity control for difficult to dry wood.

By the way:
1. Serg kiln have MANUAL chamber pressure control (e.g. you go to kiln, look at presure manometer, think a lot and power on or power off vacuum pump).
2. As i understand, Den set the vapor pressure in wood by setting PRECISELY temperature of water in plates. Serg kiln kontrol temperature in kiln chamber (between 2 wood boards).
3. Serg kiln dont have any humiduty kontol. All what you can do with humiduty it is stop remove water from kiln. but Serg kiln dont give you any information about humiduty level in chamber.
simplity is good ... ?

To Serg: Maybe better way is it install you kiln in USA and alll who want test you kiln ? transport cost to USA no more then 2000$ i think and on the forum a lot of people who get you "3 squares of workshop" for you eksperiments for free.

[rerednaw]

“The price of 10 vacuum drying chambers on 12 М3 loadings of a board of an oak thickness of 32 mm-------------284 000.00 $ For 1 month it is possible to dry up 240 М3 an oak thickness of 32 mm to make 7 200 М2 a floor thickness of 27 mm, humidity of 6 %. 1 М3 = 30М2”

1. As one of you customer tould me, he dry 32 mm oak from green to 6% - 18 days. So, I think it is 200m3 in mounth.
2. 1 m3 is not 30m2 of floor! From 200m3 you get 10416 pcs of boards 100x32x6000mm, and after planning you will have not 100mm wide but only 88mm. 10416 boards = 5499 m2 of floor (or 240 m3 is 6600 m2).


“Amortization of machine tools, taxes, rent, other charges---------------40 000.00 $”

Only one tax NDS (Value added tax in USA) is 18%. So for 7200m2x40$ you pay 52000$ only for one tax! What about another taxes ?

“The price 1М2 a floor from an oak thickness of 27 mm humidity of 6 % = 40.00 $ in Moscow”

Yeah! 40.00$ is price for first class floor, what about 2 and 3 class ? Or we can get 240m3 first class floor from you kiln ?!

“Result: 1 5000 000.00 $.@”

Result: I think by the same unprecisely way you calculate electric power, payment for rent and other things.. Simplity is good ?

[rerednaw]

I think as to receive in Moscow or Latvia your preparations.
50х50х100 mm
60х60х100 mm
70х70х100 mm
90х90х100 mm

Why 50x50x100mm but not 50x50x6000mm ? Another "simply" trick ? I think Den know answer.

[Den Socling]

That's a slice of this burl.



It's now gently drying.

[GaS]

^^ thats GaS saying 'boy this stuff is heavier than it looks!!!'

[pasbuild]

Den when can we expect the finished product pics?

[Den Socling]

We could probably dry it in a couple days but it's so darn expensive that I'll give it a couple weeks. This is a scary situation. It's like 'live' TV. The beauty won't come out until Parker gets it. It just better not have any new cracks. It already had cracks in the light colored areas. I don't want them to get any deeper.

[Jason_WI]

looks expensive

I see they weren't sent to Lativia :

Jason

[serg]

Hello friends!
In Russia the Karelian birch difficultly dries. We dry this wood in the vacuum drying chamber.
Look products from this wood. ;)
http://karbel.h1.ru/karbel/vazes.htm
Sergey.

[serg]

I have already dried up! That you asked all that up to humidity of 5.5 %!

[serg]

Thickness of a board of 26 mm. Trading names: Macassar, Ebony, Marble Wood. The nucleus black, very firm, but fragile, is spotted with brown or crimson strips. Wood with a fine homogeneous structure and density in a dry condition about 850 kg / m ³. I have dried up it(him) up to residual humidity of 5.0 %. 8) 8) 8)
Sergey.

[Chairman]

Just wanted to thank you all for your input on drying my burl. At this point I don't feel as though I could have found two more knowledgeable people than Dennis and Garrett Socling. Garrett sent me a few photos after a week in the "chamber" and the degrade appears to be non existent or minimal at best. Gotta love this technology. I can't wait to see the finished product. If it holds together (and I expect it will) this process will stand as a real milestone in drying technology. Not that I know much about drying but after talking to at least a dozen experts and getting an equal number of conflicting opinions, if we are successful, this will effectively set some new standards in the drying world. I can't imagine why anyone would want to use traditional methods of air drying for several years then kiln drying for several months if vacuum drying can be so effective with such quick turnaround. Thanks again Dennis.
Parker

[Den Socling]

Thank you very much for your comments, Parker.

With my Wagner moisture meter set to high density, I got readings in the teens in some areas of the burl when we checked it. With MC this low, we should be safe but I'll be happy when it's out, dry and without cracks. It's a scary piece of wood.

[dundee]

Just wanted to thank you all for your input on drying my burl. At this point I don't feel as though I could have found two more knowledgeable people than Dennis and Garrett Socling. Garrett sent me a few photos after a week in the "chamber" and the degrade appears to be non existent or minimal at best. Gotta love this technology. I can't wait to see the finished product. If it holds together (and I expect it will) this process will stand as a real milestone in drying technology. Not that I know much about drying but after talking to at least a dozen experts and getting an equal number of conflicting opinions, if we are successful, this will effectively set some new standards in the drying world. I can't imagine why anyone would want to use traditional methods of air drying for several years then kiln drying for several months if vacuum drying can be so effective with such quick turnaround. Thanks again Dennis.
Parker

No one in New Zealand could dry New Zealand RED BEECH----NO ONE!, Even our New Zealand Forest Research Institute Scientists, these guys wrote volumes of books as to how they thought the millers should approach kiln drying this species--ALL FAILED! Then a small parcel of the species was shipped to the Soclings for trialing, Den and Garrett persevererd, in the finish they found the answer, Den was saying, he has never --"ever seen such a difficult species to dry", so, I understand what you are conveying Parker

Rgds
Richards
New Zealand

[Den Socling]

You really have me worried now! Thinking of how much Red Beech I blew up before I figured out how to dry it.  ;) The burl is running under the 'Red Beech' schedule and I'll be sooooooo glad when it's out. Why do I get myself into these predicaments?  :D

[serg]

Den hi!
In Russia speak Amboyna Burl it is dried better than Macassar. I have bought this матерал and have put in a vacuum dryer, the Beech thickness of 52 mm humidity of 23 %, the Oak thickness of 40 mm, humidity of 19 %, Amboyna Burl thickness of 40 mm, humidity of 12 %, Macassar humidity of 23 % there laid.. Dried 12 days all material has dried up up to humidity 5 .0 - 5.8 %!!? To me have told that Macassar in drying is not dried, I have made it with other breeds and different thickness, humidity of a tree.
What you think on complexity of drying Amboyna Burl or Macassar in one bookmark with other breeds of a tree with different humidity and thickness, it is possible to dry? ??? ??? ???
Sergey.

[Den Socling]

Sergey,

I loaded cherry and hickory with the amboyna to fill the chamber.

Den

[serg]

 Den, at me not enough time was. The vacuum dryer was released (exempted.) I have taken all wood that has written and have put in one chamber with different humidity and thickness. In all boards there was only a coherent moisture.
I did (made) the diagram, the messenger water heated 45 гр 3 days of the Board with the greater gave a moisture, boards with smaller took a moisture. Has created superfluous pressure of 2 atmospheres. The connected water has come in a stage of balance of all boards. Has then created vacuum of a mercury column of 100 mm there was a process of boiling in all boards simultaneously, the temperature of boiling is equal below 45 грС.
So can dry everyone with excellent (different) quality and all breeds of a tree.

Sergey.

[Den Socling]

Sergey,

100 mm is about as low as you can go with your chamber because you need enough gas for convection. The boiling point of water at 100 mm is 52'C. With American wood, you might start 25 mm maple at 52 and not see a problem other than excessive warp but, if you started oak at 52'C, you would end up with many cracks.

Den

[serg]

Den, you are right. To give boiling a moisture free these are cracks, deformations. I give boiling the messenger of water from 25 % of-30 %, depends on density of a tree. I shall not write in mm of a mercury column. 0.095 residual pressure, temperature of boiling are lower 45 С. Thus boards heated up at 45 С, slowly begin to boil at a raising of vacuum 0.095. Pairs is present from the beginning of drying before the end of drying. Humidifying by water is not required. High quality turns out. I speak about that that the vacuum dryer can do(make) difficult work give excellent(different) quality. And diagrams of drying it is a lot of technologies behind vacuum drying the future.
It has proved Den in America.
Sergey.

[Den Socling]

Questions about the walnut burl from our new member reminded me that I never finished this thread. I finally got that burl dry. I spent 24 days. Everytime I would try to put any heat to it, I would start to get little cracks in the twisted grain.



I sanded and wetted this spot. Strange looking stuff.



I sent Parker samples to see if he considered it dry. He did and he turned this MC sample into a clock. One of these days, I'll post the rocking chair pics.