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Wall Truss Systems For Enclosing Timber Frames

Started by Jay C. White Cloud, December 08, 2012, 07:15:28 PM

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frwinks

Reid and I used the same system although I modified mine slightly from the true Persist.




How are things going Reid, I haven't rolled through Bolton lately, hope you're making good progress?

Jay C. White Cloud

Thanks so much frwinks,

Take your system make the 2"x4" a rough milled actual 2"x5" then "blow it up" to any width you have with a "span." and you have a "wall truss."  Some would say better, I say an "upgraded model," not better.  Your system and the one I use are closer than the "horizontal run 2x4" method, but that has merit as well.

Thanks again for the graphics,

Jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Builder-Bob

This thread has been interesting to read.  Has certainly given me some construction ideas to consider.  Thanks for sharing.

Bob
Measure once, cut twice, if it doesn't fit cut it again.

ReidH

Jay,   
The wall system I use is has a few detail differences from Raffs with respect to sheathing and air/vapour barrier and of course the use timber studs versus 2x stock. 
A few pics before the insulation was installed...



 
Second floor before sheathing.


 
2x10 sheathing on front wall, 1x8 rough sawn on end and rear walls.


 
Air/vapour barrier.

4 inches of insulation was then fastened with vertical strapping screwed through to the oak studs.  A good impact driver is required to drive the screws into the oak studs. Sorry, I couldn't find a good picture of the foam installation.

Reid

Jay C. White Cloud

Hi ReidH,

What a beautiful job!  The system you used is very similar to one that Jack Sobon has suggested for years.  Many of the barn to home conversion that a company I consult to does it that way. One of the short comings of "wall truss systems," can be the initial cost of labor and materials.  It really is that much more and you save on mechanical instillation and any future changes, however when you are on a very tight budget and time to finish the project is critical, often your method becomes the one of choice.

Regards,

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

ReidH

Hi Jay, It may be a time saving method when someone else is installing it...  I can make it take a long time to install.   Raff's method realizes good material and labour savings over what I did.

Hi Raff, the house is coming along nicely.  The air barrier and insulation are working wonderfully.  There is no heating system in the addition yet and it is only about a degree cooler than the heated part of the house with only a normal sized door opening between them on the first and second floor.

Reid

Jay C. White Cloud

Hi Reid,

I have met so many great folks, you referenced Raff, have I forgotten someone?  What was his method?

Thanks,

Jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

frwinks

glad to hear things are well Reid, we're still going steady on ours 8)

Jay, I'm Raff  ;D and as you can see in my pics up top, I used the first 2" layer of foilfaced polyiso as my sheathing, air and vapour barrier.  This involved a lot of time spent on the details, countless tubes of black goo, spray foam, peel and stick membrane, Venture tape...etc  You have to be really committed to get the first layer right but you save a good chunk of materials.  I then added a 3.5" layer of foilfaced polyiso, taped, sealed and flashed for a goodNtight install.  Followed by a rainscreen and wood siding.  The sound transmission through all that foam was very high, so I gave in and threw Roxul R14 in the 2x4 cavities. Now nobody can hear my wife screaming to finish the house  smiley_argue01  and the walls are pushing high R40's.
For the roof I used the standard Persist/Remote approach, but used RS 1x material for sheathing (it's also our finished ceiling).

Jay C. White Cloud

Now I've got it, thanks Raff.  So, for publications purposes and clarification of language, I'm calling all of these system "Curtain Walls," the other would be "Infill Walls."

So within "curtain walls," we have:

Stress Skin Systems.

Stick Frame or 2x Frame Systems, (which one should I use to identify it?)

Wall Truss Systems.

Any other types that you guys think could stand alone or do the all fit into these three?  Once I have consensus, I want to list what types are in all three.  Thanks for the help.

Regards,

Jay

P.S.  Raff, I love the arguing emotion cons that was great! :D
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

PaAnkerbalken

Hi Jay,

I would like to ask you about an infill type.  I have seen an old cabin/summer house here that is timber framed and infilled with cordwood.  I have read about it but seems a little scary.Seems like you might be constantly after it.  I would like to use that on my cabin i'm building but for the future house, im skepitical that it would be a good idea.  Have you ever used it? Anybody else use it? Any pros or cons? I'll soon be to the point where i have to make a decision and wife likes the looks of the cordwood. ::) Thanks Jason
logosol M7

Jay C. White Cloud

Hi Jason,

"Cord wood," construction, sometime called "cobbling," has been around for hundreds of years, perhaps over a thousand.  Since the advent of the saw. Rob Roy has done a great deal in promoting it, however he certainly has strayed from the original methodologies.  I would, and have, used it as an infill method, but often it is in a much thicker frame style than you will see published in books or on the web.  It can be drafty if not done well and I would conservatively say that 9 or of 10 people how have done it love it, but say they would never do it again.  I think part of the reason that is true, is like so many other traditional methods, those that try to "re- purpose" a building method, go too far in "reinventing the wheel,"  often forgetting critical methods and materials, which must work in concert with each other.

Regards,

jay

Here are some links to "Kullu," style from the Himalayas of which most of the time they use stone, sometime "wood cobbling." Here also is "Kubbhus" style of Sweden.  From these you can do further searches, let me know if you have more questions.  These different styles of "cobbling" or "nogging" is found frome Eastern Europe to the far East, as well as Canada.

Links to off site pictures are not allowed.


http://www.thehimalayanvillage.in/index.html

http://www.cybis.se/forfun/kubbhus/indexe.htm
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Jim_Rogers

A friend of mine visited a cord wood infill house one day.

He sent me some pictures of this unique home.

Here is the outside:



Here are the rafters:



and again:



And if you noticed, some of the cord wood infill, isn't all cord wood.

See here:



Those are different colored wine bottles.

And here is their roof:



I believe it was a "living roof" and of course it was winter time.

Here is their shed:



So it can be done and with a little thought, it can be interesting as well.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

PaAnkerbalken

Jim or Jay,
I've also seen here on some old tf houses that are abandoned, that some of the board siding has come off to reveal that it was infilled with brick. They didnt use cement for morter they used what looks like orange clay. ???  Is this method any better than cordwood? More stable?  It sure looks neat, seeing the beams and the brick flush to the outside.  How would you run your plumbing and electrical with those type of enclosures?  Jason
logosol M7

Jay C. White Cloud

Hi Jason,

Well I will work backwards on your question.  As for the mechanicals that you normally run in a wall, with any of the infill types, you really can't, not effectively anyway.  Should you need to change, update or modify something you did embedded in the wall, well that involves a lot of ripping and tearing.  Most of the time you either have to run mechanicals in the ceiling, floor or over the surface of the wall.  I have seen the use of "thickened" baseboards to hide such things and that is probably the best of the lot, for a method.

Your second observation is most accurate, I commend you.  It speaks to what I was saying about folks, "reinventing the wheel."  Since just before WWII concrete started becoming the "miracle" material for just about everything from building skyscrapers, to re-chinking a log cabins and filling voids in hollow trees.  The skyscraper and a few other modern application, if done with the correct mix and application, it has turned out, are the only places you should ever "stick," or use concrete.  Proper lime based mortars are far superior to any of the Portland based ones, matching the brick in flexibility and expandability, as well as, taking and releasing water in concert with each other.  In many cases clay mortar would be better than cement, should you choose to use this system.

I'm with you in liking the look of "cobbling," and there is one way to get the best of both worlds.  Use the cord word only part of the way up the wall on the ground floor of a structure.  Like a wainscot up to chair back height or so.  You can even use a thickened ledger cap to hid your mechanicals if need be.

Regards,

Jay

"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Satamax

Quote from: PaAnkerbalken on December 14, 2012, 10:57:44 PM
Jim or Jay,
I've also seen here on some old tf houses that are abandoned, that some of the board siding has come off to reveal that it was infilled with brick. They didnt use cement for morter they used what looks like orange clay. ???  Is this method any better than cordwood? More stable?  It sure looks neat, seeing the beams and the brick flush to the outside.  How would you run your plumbing and electrical with those type of enclosures?  Jason
Jason, what you talk about sounds like "colombage"

Links to off site pictures are not allowed
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

jueston

that link took me to this picture, and i thought i would include, no matter what infill style you go with, towers are always in style.

Links to off site pictures are not allowed.

Jay C. White Cloud

Hello All,

Good Day Satamax,

I do not want to assume you are a native French speaker just by the region you hail from, I do not have command over the language.  I have been doing extensive research in multiply languages for about a decade and a half, (thank's to technology and dogged patients.) So perhaps what I am about to write is incorrect.

"Colombage," in French only means timber, or in this context, "timbering," and does not speak to the wattle (clayonnage) that goes between the timbers or the mud cob (en torchis) that covers it.  I did a quick search and the best passage I could find and translate is as follows:

Original French:
"Construction d'une maison en torchis et colombage sur la base d'un ancien pressoir à pommes. Le torchis a été posé sur une structure liteaux (clayonnage) cloué a l'arrière des colombes, permettant ainsi d'éviter les ponts thermiques. Le torchis redevient un matériau de construction dans l'ère du temps, il s'adapte parfaitement a la construction bois en lui permettant de respirer."

Translation to English:
Construction of a house made ​​of mud and timber on the basis of an old apple press. The mud was placed on a structure battens (wattle) is nailed back of columns, thus avoiding thermal bridges. The mud becomes a building material in the era of time (to mean in the past-history,) it adapts perfectly to the construction wood allowing it to breathe.

Hi Jason,

Your observations have led us to some more good information.  If you learn to do searches in other languages you can discover all kinds of things about traditional timber framing and building methods.  The more I read the more I have learned that just plan old "clay mud cobbing, daub or cob," is probably still one of the best building materials you could use for infilling between timbers or logs.  If done correctly it can be very serviceable and secure.  It has been pointed out that "concrete" or "portland mortars" stick better, and this may be true, but concrete also is excellent at decomposing wood by it's hydrophilic (water-loving) nature. Concrete does not allow wood to dry out completely thus being a major contributor to "dry rot" wherever it is in direct contact with wood.

Regards,

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

PaAnkerbalken

Thanks Jay and Satamax,

I'm guessing you should use a rot resistant wood then in your frame if you were to use that kind of infill? My posts(8x8) are white ash. Sills are(8x8) EWP.  Would the sills and posts rot out if i were to fill in with stone, brick or cordwood? I noted that you said daubing or clay is more breathable, so maybe they won't rot? I would probably try the clay we have here for the "mortar" between the cordwood.  I'm leaning toward the cordwood simply because of the weight, availability and time factors but wouldn't be apposed to starting out with stone or brick (like wainscot) and then switching to cordwood the rest of the way.  Is something like that doable? Sounds like a crazy amount of work but unique! :o   Jason
logosol M7

Jay C. White Cloud

It is very doable, be creative, and yes it is a lot of work!  I would always use clay or a lime mortar and at this stage in the game seldom do I consider portland (cement,) for anything short of form work of some type, but only after a traditional method has been thoroughly considered do I even consider it then. 

If you have a good source of clay, wood chip and/or straw, and a way to mix it, (if it is just you and maybe a few others you are going to need a power mixer or a lot of muscle and time,) you will be on your way to something grand.  Good luck and keep us updated with your progress and thoughts.

Regards,

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Piston

This is a really informative thread.  I read about the larsen truss system in one of Benson's books.  In fact, I think those pics that Jim posted earlier are the identical pictures from that book.  It sounded pretty interesting and seemed like a good system. 

I have always thought that if I ever got off my butt and built something like a shed or cabin, then I would use the horizontal nailer system if I was trying to do it economically, but the Larsen truss system also looks interesting.  Thanks for bringing it up, there's some really good info in this thread for alternatives. 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Jay C. White Cloud

Hi Piston,

If you set up a jig and have a table saw, and chain mortiser, you can make them really quick.  To of the young men I taught built 250 mm wide trusses for a 12 m x 12 m house in 1.5 days or 24 man hours.  Attaching them to the frame was strait forward and only took another 16 man hours.  They had 50 mm x 125 mm stock delivered, then ripped each one down to 50 mm x 50 mm and 50 mm x 75 mm, then when they feed the two pieces through the jig, a single plunge of the chain mortiser cut a mortise 20 mm x 50 mm in both pieces with one pass.  The spans are cut on the table saw. The spans are set to 500 mm on center within each truss, and the trusses themselves are placed 600 mm apart on the frame, (truss centers can range from 480 mm to 600 mm seldom outside that range when applied to a timber frame.)

Regards,

Jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

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