Still making benches

[A-z farmer]

WV sawmiller 
You could make a holding jig and cut the tenons on your sawmill.

[doc henderson]

I have only used wedges on blind mortices/tenons.  some math to do, but for a loose fit,  I split the end of the tenon with a band saw,  make a wooden wedge, and start it in the slot.  apply glue.  as I place and drive the leg into the tenon, the bottom of the mortice (top of the bench) drives the wedge into the slot.  I do not go through the top with the mortice, so the weather and moisture does not seep into the joint.  a difference that Howard and I have discussed.  I have only done this a few times when needed, as it is kind of an all or nothing deal.  hard to remove if the wedge was over or under done.  flares out the end.  wedges should always be oriented perpendicular to the grain, so you do not split the seat, like ol Abe Lincoln.  the length and angle of the wedge needs to be "guessed" based on how snug or loose the fit is.  I always glue my legs.  the slot and the wedge need to be close to the same length so the wedge does not bottom out in the slot and prevent the tenon from seating in the hole.  Hope this makes sense, as I think I know what I mean! :D

[doc henderson]

I have 2  55 gallon poly barrels full of leg stock.  several sizes 1,5 to 2.5 inches and dry to 7%.  I often make the seats out of a pile outside, so close to 12 or more if fresh.  so as the seat dries and shrinks it serves to tighten the hold on the legs.  I do the height of the bench based on who it is for.  children vs adults.  for a three legged bench, I splay the legs front and back, and side to side.  I orient the 2 legs to the back if there is one.  people always like to rock backwards for some reason.      8)  

[doc henderson]

Our scout master once teased me about a 3 legged bench, saying I was going to fall over, but of course it is more stable on an uneven surface.  He got a 6 legged bench as a gift when he stepped down.  It worked well, as the 12 points of the scout law was placed, 2 on each leg.



3 legged benches for one of my docs 3 kids, 12 inches high.



 

 

a 10 inch tall 3 legged bench, next to grown up benches at 16 inches tall.  blue stained pine, ERC, and Mulberry.

[caveman]

Howard, a hand saw would probably do what you need to do without too much exertion.  If the legs are dry they stay secure a lot better.  I was rushed when we built all of the benches for my daughter's wedding and the slabs and the legs were not dry.  They loosened as they dried.  The ones we build now are kiln dried and the legs do not wobble over time.

[doc henderson]

found the 6 legged bench.  not easy to find a floor flat enough, so I added insets with threaded feet to adjust.



 

 

 

 

this was before my laser and part of the motivation.  all hand wood burned, including the navy pilot insignia on the end that is hard to see in the photo.

[WV Sawmiller]

   Well, I have fat fingered this @*%g&) reply into cyber space twice now so I will try one more time. Thanks for your replies, comments and suggestions.

A-z,

 I don't know about a holding jig but I think it would be hard to get an accurate enough cut and the kerf on the sawmill would be wider than I prefer. It would be at least as wide as the table saw.

Cavey,

 After my table saw accident in June I would be scared to cut slots with a hand saw and I think the kerf would be wider than I want.

  How did you tighten the legs back up? Epoxy? If the tenon passes all the way through the mortise a steel sledgehammer wedge would be a quick and easy fix.

OGH,

  I disagree - your benches look much better than mine especially with that high class finishes. I drooled when I saw that last picture you posted.

  I think the back or miter saw would be too wide a kerf. I think a hack  saw, coping saw or jig saw or, ideally, a band saw would be the best kerf. I don't have the band or coping saw and feel the hack saw or jig saw are too much effort for the expected results.

 I think if I set my table saw about 2" blade height with the fence set 3/4" from the blade center would work well on my 1.5" diameter tenon. I am thinking I can stand the leg upright with the tip of the tenon on the table top and make one pass against the fence. The 2" depth would leave me an inch of excess height to cut off the top of the bench and still leave an inch for a wedge.

 On stool height there are plenty of options. Make them 12" and call them a milking stool. Cut at 17" and regular stool. Make them 24-28 and call them a bar stool. I think on the taller height you'd need to connect/brace the legs. You could make mortise and tenon parallel to the floor. You could use sissal or jute rope for function and decoration. If you have a Goth customer you can use barb wire. :D

Doc,

 This may be where we part ways and you will hate me forever more. :(

  The wood and finishes are top notch but the 6 legs on a bench that short just don't look right to me. I'd think I'd want at least an 8' bench before I put in the extra pair of legs. Same with the 3 legged stool - my mind says 3 legged stools have to be round or triangle and not square or rectangle. I know they are stable and am sure they work well but... (Sorry about that - that plus my overwhelming modesty and humility are probably my only character flaws.) I wonder how they would work with 2 legs on one end and one centered on the other end would look instead of with a leg in the middle?

 I used to make thick benches and buried the tenons inside the wood but I felt they were too heavy and settled on 2" as strong enough, light enough and with enough depth on the mortise to hold the tenon adequately.

 Please forgive me if I hurt your feelings. Keep up the good work and great suggestions. ;)

[Ed_K]

 When I cut slots in hammers,hatchets an axes I use a hacksaw. It's worked good for me.

[doc henderson]

Howard, no feelings in danger here.  I love the look of your benches.  I mentioned not having end grain on the top side getting weather as one reason to have blind tenons.  but also, I do not want to deal with the tear out.  I have done a few, and I am sure I can perfect it if needed, but typically do not bore all the way through.  the 6 legged bench..., I agree and will hopefully never make another.  It was a gift for our outgoing scoutmaster, Mr. Fee, who is a jet blue pilot now, and served as a navy pilot.  You were in the military, and the scouts mimics that somewhat for the boys and leaders involved.  If you recall, Mr. Fee had teased me about my very stable highly valuable three legged bench.  In the spirit of good natured fun, and to get all 12 points of the law on a leg,  He got a 6 legged bench.   8) .  At the celebration i told the story about the campout and the 3 legged bench.  the bench was covered.  My son used traffic flashlights to direct Mr. Fee's son to the bench (wearing shades and his dad's bomber jacker from the navy) that also had LED runways lights temporarily attached.  He sat on the bench as a safety test, using all the perceived military and aviation protocols that we could make up.  At his thank you celebration we all had a good laugh,  and that bench still sits proudly on his back porch (enclosed).
to cut the slots in an upright leg on a table saw.  you can get a thin kerf blade.  and I would rig something to your miter gage or make a stand up jig so the leg has support near the blade.  there are all kinds of places you do not want the saw to stick that leg.    :(   ;) :D
again no hard feelings, just joining the "leg number" conversation.  much of this is aesthetics, and as we know, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.  God Bless.

[Old Greenhorn]

No hurt feelings here either for sure. I think we all look at each other's work and think "Wow, I wish I could do it like that" or "Geez, maybe I could try that, it looks a lot nicer" or "Hey, that's a neat idea, I wonder if I could do that?". It's how we learn. (Watch the progress on the one I am just starting, I really can't believe I am even trying this, but ....peer pressure. ;D)
 On your saw issue, the table saw without a jig the tenon would sit in scares the heck out of me. There are a LOT of different hacksaw blade available to make a thin slot. In fact, I used to buy special screw slotting blades to cut screw driver slots when I made special one-off screws. They have no kerf and cut the exact width of the blade material. My first grab would be the hacksaw for a quick slot of any depth, but it can be tricky to keep it straight. Then I would go to the backsaw for control, but I would have to check the kerf width. When I do ax handles I grab whatever hacksaw is handy and actually find the slot is a little too thin when I drive the handle in. What slot width are you looking for?
 Someday I will pop out a 3 legged bench, but unlike Doc's I think it will have two legs on one end and one on the other with, hopefully, some sort of slab that simulates a triangular shape of some sort. It's art, not science.

[doc henderson]

or lay the leg flat on the saw, and cut from two sides and finish the center with a hand saw.  the kerf really does not matter, you just make a wedge to fit the kerf.  Ok @Old Greenhorn "now my feeling are hurt"   smiley_cry   ... "not"  cheers!       bon_fire

good luck finding people with a triangular or round butt! :D :D :D

[btulloh]

I'm not sure what you've got against thicker wedges WV, but we do what we like.  People do like the look of wedges - kinda like exposed dovetails.

Wedge size and kerf size need to match, but not a big deal, except with blind wedges like Doc's talking about.  

I cut kerfs for wedges on the table saw, the band saw (free hand) with a back saw, or just about anything that suits me at the moment.  Not rocket science.

On some pieces that are highly finished, I've cut double kerfs and tapered the mortises.  That can take some time and planning, but . . .



 


Triple tenons on this bench with double wedges and tapered mortises.  Not necessary, just a look I wanted.  Wedges are hard maple for contrast.




The bottom feet are done with wide double tenons and the wedges are located close to the outsides of the wide tenons, otherwise they couldn't spread the tenon.  Not even necessary, just the way I wanted it at the time.

The good thing about doing this stuff is we get the chance to do it however we want.  Hopefully that translates into how a potential customer wants it if your selling it.

Keep up the good work, and cut your kerfs however you desire.  That may change over time.

[doc henderson]

@btulloh that is first class work.  @Old Greenhorn very excited to see your top secret joint venture. lots of great ideas..  

[WV Sawmiller]

   Boy that is some fancy mortise and tenon work. All I have ever used is my Lumberjack round tenon cutter and bored a matching mortise with a spade bit now my auger.

  Sawing a slot with a hacksaw or handsaw or such is not hard but if you are doing a bunch it just takes a while. Steel wedges are so easy to install I have avoided the issue. I just wish they made them with a matching woodgrain pattern.

OGH,

  I am not sure about a jig to hold the tenon on the table saw. I was thinking the length of the leg and the fence would be adequate but my track record and credibility with tablesaws is not the best in the world - a fact I am reminded of almost daily when I bump my left hand on something.

Doc,

  Are you talking about breakout concerns on the bench top when you drive the leg through from the bottom or when you bore the mortise from the top and break-out occurring on the bottom? I have found the break-out on the bottom is pretty much non-existent when I remember to put a piece of scrap stock underneath and bore into it. Of course since it is on the bottom I don't worry much about the look since it is out of sight anyway. I have not tried it but I would bet if we made a mortise hole in a piece of stock, metal might be better, and line it up directly over the top side of the mortise and clamp it securely before driving the leg through that should about eliminate top-side break out. That might be something you can try.

  As to the round and triangular rumps - you have caused me to have a flashback to a big fat lady in a pair of tight silver sweatpants I saw going into a restaurant near Steubenville Ohio while I was working a project up there. We all commented that she looked like she was wearing 2 bags full of cats. It was not a pretty sight and I may wake up screaming tonight thinking about it. It has taken me 23 years to forget it now you brought it back. Thanks a lot!

[btulloh]

Here's all you need for sawing the kerfs on the tablesaw.  Two pieces of 1x6 scrap.  Fasten the stop to the runner with a couple screws (be sure to put them high enough to be above the saw blade when you saw through the stop.  You can hold the leg by hand and run it safely through, or use a clamp to hold the leg.  Safe and secure, accurate and repeatable.  Three minutes to make the jig.

It's good to be leery of the table saw and don't do things you're not comfortable with.  Those instincts will keep all ten fingers where they belong.  There's always a way to hold stuff or push it or rig up to do it safely.  And we like safety.  And fingers.



 

(If you want, make the tail part longer so there's no chance of running into the saw blade with meat.)

Nothing about this is real critical, adjust to the scrap laying around and your comfort level.  Don't make it too high that it's tippy though.  Maybe make the runner out 2x stock for more stability.  Let your conscience be your guide.

[WV Sawmiller]

@btulloh ,

   Thanks for the diagram. I was just thinking of free-handing it against the fence but this looks simple and a lot safer and I have tons of handy scrap laying around that will work just fine for this. 

   I do see on the diagram they just used blank leg stock before the tenon's were cut into it. I was planning on cutting the grooves into finished tenons so there is less wood to cut and easier to make sure the groove is centered. I confess - sometimes my tenon is not centered in the leg and I just rotate the leg around to display it the way I think looks best.

[doc henderson]

 As to the round and triangular rumps - you have caused me to have a flashback to a big fat lady in a pair of tight silver sweatpants I saw going into a restaurant near Steubenville Ohio while I was working a project up there. We all commented that she looked like she was wearing 2 bags full of cats. It was not a pretty sight and I may wake up screaming tonight thinking about it. It has taken me 23 years to forget it now you brought it back. Thanks a lot!

See I told you the 6 legged bench is occasionally required! :D :D :D
Big Boned Gal â€" k.d. lang (1989) - YouTube

[doc henderson]

I made a compound drill press and drill from the bottom of the bench seat.  the original ones were free hand, and the break out was on top.  I think it is worth doing and using a backer board if the through tenons are wanted for the look.  Rustic has a wide range of "Rusticity"! :D :D :D  I just fixed it by elimination vs refining my technique.  i love the look of the through tenons as well.  keep up the good work.

[WV Sawmiller]

Doc,

  The one I saw was no "big-boned gal". She looked like she had taken 2 beach balls and stuffed them into a pair of shiny silver sweat pants. The view of her walking away was scarier than any B-grade horror movie I ever saw!

   Oh - you say I am not being politically correct? You weren't there. PC be d---d!

[btulloh]

Yeah, "rustic" leaves room for interpretation. Too refined and it's not rustic anymore. Customers vote with their wallet. Give 'em some choices. If a style isn't selling well, make changes. 

WV, I just sketched that out in a hurry to show the basic concept. Probably better to cut the slot after the tenon is cut for several reasons. It's your cat and you decide how best to skin it. You can use a sled if you've already got one, or a miter guage and sacrificial board (with a clamp).

Your instincts on just holding the leg vertical with no support are right on. Recipe for trouble. And blood. 

Personally I just grab a hunk of 2x6 and hold the leg in front it to run it through the saw, but I'm real used to doing that and know that it'll work for me. 

[btulloh]

I'm staying away from the three legged stool discussion. There's a old Queen song that should be playing behind it though. Relevant line: "Fat bottom girls, you make the rockin' world go 'round".  

[btulloh]

Doc,

 The one I saw was no "big-boned gal". She looked like she had taken 2 beach balls and stuffed them into a pair of shiny silver sweat pants. The view of her walking away was scarier than any B-grade horror movie I ever saw!

  Oh - you say I am not being politically correct? You weren't there. PC be d---d!

Well, I couldn't stop myself. Once heard that sorta thing compared to "two volkswagon beetles trying to pass each other". 

[WV Sawmiller]

   Oh, you saw her too. :D

[doc henderson]

or the song by Donkey in the movie Shrek...  "I like big bugs and I don't know why!!"   :D :D :D

Donkey likes big Dragon butts (and he cannot lie) - YouTube

[Old Greenhorn]

Can we change the subject to grits or chickens or something? Even photos of MM's feet would be better than the visuals I am getting from this.  :D