Howdy,
A salvage guy in Wisconsin found and purchased this barn near Manitowoc, WI which is north of Milwaukee near Lake Michigan. It is a 40 x 70 hand hewn pine frame. He has never seen one like this, and neither have I. To me, the most unique part of this frame is that the tails of the rafters are joined to either a full tie beam that rests on top of the sidewall top-plate, or for lack of a better description, "stub-tie-beams", which then seem to be attached to a beam that spans the bay and connects the full tie-beams about 24" from their ends. It seems like the framer is using this secondary beam to help control the roof from pushing the sidewalls out at the top. Do you also see this?...or is there a different purpose or idea behind this additional framing system?
So I offer this starter question...Does this design have it's origins in any known ethnic inventory?
Let me know what you all think.
Rooster
P.S I am hoping to do a Sketchup drawing of the frame so that I can post it in the depository.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/3375/SANY0001.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/3375/SANY0015.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/3375/SANY0002.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/3375/SANY0003.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/3375/SANY0004.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/3375/SANY0005.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/3375/SANY0006.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/3375/SANY0007.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/3375/SANY0009.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/3375/SANY0010.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/3375/SANY0012.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/3375/SANY0014.JPG)
I have never saw a frame like that and I suspect the reason why is it uses more lumber and joinery than other simpler designs that will work just as well. I am unsure why a farmer would make more work or expense for himself building a barn or anything else for that matter.
Maybe it is the pics, or perhaps they did a really good job, but other than the floor joists it doesn't look hand hewn to me.
Maybe the farmer got talked into it because he didn't have enough experience, or he built it himself ("farmer built") and wanted to over-build it to make sure that it would last. We may never know.
Hey,
I finally got a chance to draw this frame with Sketchup.
The tie-beams sit on top of the sidewall top-plate like a regular English tie joint, but they used common rafters. Each tie-beam has it's own set of rafters, but the rafters between the tie-beam spacing sit on "Stub-ties", which take up the distance or depth of the regular tie-beams and give each rafter a foot-pad to connect to and transfer the load to the top-plate.
I have only seen two frames that have this type of roof system, and I believe it may be Pomeranian-German style.
Has anyone seen other frames like this?
Thanks,
Rooster
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15824/Manitowoc_Barn05_2D1.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15824/Manitowoc_Barn05_2D2.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15824/Manitowoc_Barn05_2D3.jpg)
A very interesting design indeed and you did a great job with the sketchup, this design has almost a truss element to the roof support members and I like the way the rafters are connected over the tie beams at the top plate and the use of the "Stub-ties" and transverse rim-joist style beam to stabilize the roof loads. Very special and appears to be well engineered with many considerations given to use of space horizontally and vertically. Thanks for sharing this special barn frame and it looks even more interesting with your sketchup drawing as many of the details are visible to show us a clear view of how this structure was built. If only we had xray vision and could see into the joinery to observe the the details hidden from our view in this very strong design. I have never see any frame that used this method of connections it is unique and very sturdy.
Very interesting post thanks for sharing.
Rooster,
Do you know how those stub ties are attached to that inner beam? Looks like they are notched to fit over the outer plate and I assume they would have horizontal mortise and tenon joints into the inner beam, but are they also pegged? They could be pegged from the top of the beam, but I can't tell from the photos.
BW
Quote from: Brian_Weekley on November 30, 2012, 08:29:34 PM
Rooster,
Do you know how those stub ties are attached to that inner beam? Looks like they are notched to fit over the outer plate and I assume they would have horizontal mortise and tenon joints into the inner beam, but are they also pegged? They could be pegged from the top of the beam, but I can't tell from the photos.
BW
BW,
To answer your questions...yes,yes,yes, and yes! ;)
I'll be going down to finish the frame next month, and I will take lots of photos of the repairs, joints, and raising.
Thanks,
Rooster
Update:
I recently returned home from the site on which this barn was relocated to...(Fredericksburg, TX)
Here are some photos of the restored and re-raised frame.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15824/IMG_1470.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15824/IMG_1472.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15824/IMG_1475.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15824/IMG_1482.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15824/IMG_1477.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15824/IMG_1504.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15824/IMG_1507.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15824/IMG_1500.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15824/IMG_1501.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15824/IMG_1502.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15824/IMG_1503.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15824/IMG_1510.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15824/IMG_1512.JPG)
It looked like a nice site.
Thanks for posting.
Jim Rogers
Are the girts face lapped(cut out on one side) to accept those long corner braces? How do you think they laid those out? Before assembly or on the fly?
Good pics by the way. Any more? Was that how it was when you had to leave?
Yes, the girts and wall diagonals are half-lapped. I believe that they were scribed during pre-assembly The diagonals have short tenons on the top and bottom that match mortises on the underside of the tie-beam and the top of the sill beam.
I couldn't stay for the rest of the rafters to be raised...so they will have to send me photos when they are done.
Thanks,
Rooster
I can't help but wonder how long it took to originally build that barn, "back in the old days"? That's some incredible workmanship, IMHO.
I really like that final photo at sunset.
Rooster,
Originally, I was going to propose a crazy, alternative theory for this design...
They cut all the rafters based on the width of the barn:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/26833/Stub_Tie_Beams-Front.jpg)
However, they forgot that all the rafters don't sit on a tie beam! Therefore, most of the rafters cut were too short and couldn't be used:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/26833/Stub_Tie_Beam_Rafters.jpg)
To remedy this mistake, they added the secondary beams and the stub-ties to give the rafters something to sit on and bring them to the correct height.
If the rafters had been spiked into the stub-ties, I would stand behind my theory. However, your new photos clearly show mortises cut into the stub-ties to accept the rafters. Therefore, I think the design was probably deliberate and I agree with your hypothesis (resistance to outward thrust). Very interesting--thanks for sharing.
Brian :P
Considering the barns original location (WI), I believe the design was done to support HEAVY snow load on the roof. In a sigle top plate design, the load on the roof would transfer to the walls of the barn, and in turn bow the walls, and allow the roof to sag, and eventually collapse. The addition of the "inner beam" is similar to a floor truss laying on it's side. A single top plate would not hold near the load that this system would hold. JMHO
Amazing joinery by the way. Alot of craftmenship indeed. It's nice to see this barn being relocated, rather than disassebled, and sold in pieces.
Another comment, How old is this barn? Again, considering it's original location, and the loads it must have experienced in it's lifetime, there is no indication in your first pic of any roof sag, or outward bow in the walls. I think the design proved itself.
rooster thanks for all the pics, this timber frame construction has really grabbed my attention, and not knowing anything at all, what slabslicer suggested on the side load makes sense to me, not only snow loads but maybe wind loads as well, thanks to all who build these structures and share your techqniques, david :new_year:
:) Mighty fine work in the first paragraph that part of wouldn't work Hmm I grew up on a farm in PA where the barn was built over 200 yr's prior to my birth and it sure looked alot like that one cept the painting was just dry boards no rot though we always wished Mail Pouch would paint it but it wasn't by the freeways that they charge toll's on now day's Hmm Dang glad to see such fine craftsmanship then and now :snowball: :new_year:
Quote from: shinnlinger on March 19, 2011, 07:50:32 PM
Maybe it is the pics, or perhaps they did a really good job, but other than the floor joists it doesn't look hand hewn to me.
Yes, it's all hewn. Some of them are so smooth and straight, that from 20ft away, they look sawn and planed. I am of the opinion that true hewing is done to produce this smooth finish as apposed to roughing out a beam or cant. Check out how smooth Mike B. gets his hewn surface.
http://youtu.be/xGy31E63Ems
Or Nebruks:
http://youtu.be/pfYx0CuO21k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNhxDUsESUM&list=UUXdE6hQzA25T5ejVPrr4x-g
I'll add here what I said over at the TFG forums, plus a little more info relevant to this thread.
Seeing the deconstruction and reconstruction of this barn, the frame assembly, joint layout, joint designs etc. have very clear connections to timber framing of the western Swiss Plateau. Many of the features of this barn strike me as very familiar and identical to what I see on the large farm buildings in the Canton of Bern. These would include the long slanted braces, the short tenons, the dovetail lap joints, and even the mysterious stub tie assembly. I have seen this exact assembly in use in Canton Bern.
I think there are a number of reasons why this is done.
First, all rafters are identical, that is you don't have shorter rafters where the full ties are. This makes a difference in keeping the roof straight over time.
Also, this assembly stiffens the walls and keeps them nice and straight.
Third, in the huge Bernese farmhouses, there are many many tie beams spaced like the stub ties (close) supporting a very large upper room where hay and machinery are stored. On buildings lacking this huge upper space (due to a design for a different use) the assembly of the many ties is kept by using the stub tie system. This allows for a certain degree of stiffness while still allowing for a relatively open loft space.
I would hypothesize that this barn was built by a Swiss immigrant with training in the old country, applying his knowledge to the farming realities of the United States.
I looked through some of my pictures, here's one barn that shows some of the features although it is a little different, and is in the mountains, not on the plateau.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29312/IMG_1189.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29312/IMG_1190.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29312/IMG_1191.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29312/IMG_1193.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29312/IMG_1194.JPG)
And here are a few more, from the Emmental
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29312/IMG_1858.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29312/IMG_1779.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29312/IMG_1778.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29312/IMG_1777.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29312/IMG_1755.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29312/IMG_1754.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29312/IMG_1749.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29312/IMG_1748.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29312/IMG_1747.JPG)
Got to love timber framed buildings 8) :new_year:
Thanks to everyone who has responded!!
DL,
Those are some nice frames!! Very inspirational!!
Thanks for sharing!!
Rooster
Hello All,
I know I'm coming to this conversation late in the game but I have seen this rafter tail configuration before, in Ohio and I believe Pennsylvania, can't remember. It could be of several European origins depending on where the barn is found. This one is most likely Swiss or German.
The name of the technique is described in several cultures. I have translated them all to English and/or closest meaning.
sprocket beam
stitch beam
bracket beam
dragon beam (note, this is similar to what you find hip rafters resting on.)
Sometimes they are attached with a tenon, (sometimes a through with wedge,) to a secondary rafter plat, often they are not, though the configuration is similar, and function the same.
Here are a few references:
"The Roof in Japan Buddist Architecture," M.N.Parent, 1985
"The History of Roof Work Illistrated," F. Ostendorf, 1908 (German)
"Japan's Folk Architecture" Chuji Kawashima, 1986
R. G. Knapp, can't remember which one. I think "China's Vernacular Architecture," 1989
"Wood and Wood Joints, building traditions of Europe and Japan," K. Zwerger, 2000
I'm not 100% but I believe this makes reference also:
"The Craft of Log Building," H. Phleps, 1967 (German) trans. Eng. Lee 1982
Regards, jay
If one could describe nebrunks video in one word.
For me it would be " Pure".
Here is another building I have been studying, made me think of this thread.
Here you can see clearly the type of bracketing used on the barn in question.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29312/IMG_0466.JPG)
Rooster´s barn.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15824/IMG_1507.JPG)
And this is how the construction looks in its native environment and actually makes perfect sense. :)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19130/FF_barn_04.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19130/FF_barn_05.jpg)
We have 2 barns at the place where i grew up in Germany, showing the same roof detail. One building entirely made out of mud/ adobe, the other one made out of sand stone/ field stone.
I vote for craftsman out of my neighborhood near the town of Bernburg at the river Saale. Small world. :)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19130/FF_barn_01.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19130/FF_barn_02.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19130/FF_barn_03.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19130/FF_barn_drawing_01.jpg)
@Rooster (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=5824)
Quote from: Rooster on March 19, 2011, 12:44:56 PM
Howdy,
To me, the most unique part of this frame is that the tails of the rafters are joined to either a full tie beam that rests on top of the sidewall top-plate, or for lack of a better description, "stub-tie-beams", which then seem to be attached to a beam that spans the bay and connects the full tie-beams about 24" from their ends. It seems like the framer is using this secondary beam to help control the roof from pushing the sidewalls out at the top. Do you also see this?...or is there a different purpose or idea behind this additional framing system?
So I offer this starter question...Does this design have it's origins in any known ethnic inventory?
Let me know what you all think.
Rooster
End quote
First off, i am far away from being a final instance on anything. :D
But looking at our own barn, the roof is designed to work with massive walls made of stone or adobe. In Rooster`s case, the carpenter used a design he knew and adjusted for the framed walls only by pegging the short members where the rafters are resting on, into the tie beam and "beefed up" here and there to keep the walls from bending under load.
In our barns they are not even pegged and the tenons are free floating. The sub-tie shown in my poor drawing as an 12x12 (centimeter) is meant to carry most of the load into the 60 cm thick walls.
It is actually a clever way to design an open unobstructed loft, that allows to stack your hay or straw all the way up till you hit the roof. The use of timber is limited to the bare minimum and the dimensions are quite small for a large roof(in our case).
All in all it appears to me that the guys knew their business and addressed the structural challenge, using a roof designed for a stone building on a framed one, accordingly.
venice
After more study, this is my observations on this style of framing.
First of all, very good information Venice, thanks for sharing.
I believe this to be an example of the German style of rafter roof framing, or standing roof (Sparrendach). In this type of framing, rather than setting rafters into the plate they are set into the crossbeams or anchor beams.
On a house, it's a simple matter to have one anchor beam for each rafter pair which also serve as ceiling joists. But like venice pointed out you don't want this in a barn, where you want to be able to stack hay up to the roof. So carpenters devised this method of tying the cut off anchor beams (here called Strichbalken) into a support beam.
You are right on with the "Sparrendach".
Mr. Bahler knows it, but for those who might be interested too; the idea behind the "Sparrendach" design is to create a triangle, jointing the rafters into the ceiling joists with mortise and tennon or half-lap joints in some cases. The joist is acting as a "draw band". Therefore, most of the load that is transfered into the walls(except for windload) is vertical.
The roof construction, using the "Sattelbalken" - as the short member that is resting on the wall is called around here, has been in use at least since the 12th. century. :o
It can be found on churches as well, making room for the vaulted ceiling.
It is amazing how much knowlegde the master carpenters and architects had back then. With no Google around, probably gained by trail and error. :D And it is also amazing how long carpenters would use the same technique.
venice
Venice you seem a very knowledgeable person, I should very much like to confer with you to get more information about the old German techniques. My training is Swiss, and most of my research is Swiss, but I'd like to know more about German.
I was somewhat unsure of whether the term 'Sparrendach' is used to the north, and I was certain you would have a name for the stub ties other than 'Strichbalken' since that is an obviously Swiss (to me) term.