Looking to puchase a new OWB and can't decide

[ga jones]

Everyone IS entitled to there own choice. And there own opinions  :

[thecfarm]

I burn just about all soft wood and dead wood in my OWB. That is why I brought it. I did experiment with cut it in the morning,burn it at night. With both soft and hard wood.Went through alot of wood,but had no problems with it. Besides the smoking part of it.now my wood is dry on the stump. My old cook stove I've seen smoked more than my OWB and the cook stove wood was good dry hardwood.

[martyinmi]

The Empyre Pro 200 only puts out half the btu of a E1450.
The E1450 has 7 vertical tubes that allow ash to drop down with very little cleaning necessary.
The Empre Pro 200 has something like 12 horizontal tubes to clean and 12 more vertical tubes, from what I saw at the fair. Salesman told me they need to be cleaned every 7-10 days.
Pro 200 has a very small firebox and has no means of fine tuning secondary air induction, while CB gassers are computer monitored and air adjusted according to burn rate.
CB has urethane insulation, Empyre pro, fiberglass batts.
I don't see the comparison even being close.
But hey everyone is entitled to their own choice.

The BTU outputs are in direct relationship to the primary combustion chamber volume(EPA 8 and 12 hour burns). Compare combustion chamber volume vs EPA rated outputs and you'll understand easily. pc_smiley A smaller burn chamber loaded twice daily will last longer than a large one loaded once daily. Just picture that smokey,wet, acidic fog that hits you every time you open your door and imagine what it's doing to the inside of your boiler.

The Empyre line of OWB's employs the Scotch Marine style of heat exchange. It's been around for 150+ years, and it is bulletproof. For optimum efficiency the heat exchange tubes should be cleaned every 1-2 weeks- but they don't have to be. All gassers should be swept out routinely for peak performance.

I would never purchase an OWB with sprayed on urethane insulation. It does not breathe, and condensation has nowhere to go, which lends itself to premature water vessel failure(rusting from the outside-in). Breathable fiberglass batt insulation is the way to go. 8)

I'm with you on two of your comments, in that we are all entitled to our own choices, and I don't see the comparison even being close. ;)

[Holmes]

Quote from martyinmi

I would never purchase an OWB with sprayed on urethane insulation. It does not breathe, and condensation has nowhere to go, which lends itself to premature water vessel failure(rusting from the outside-in). Breathable fiberglass batt insulation is the way to go. 8)

I was under the impression that condensation has not place to develop with  spray foam insulation. If it is installed properly  no air can come in contact with the metal to allow condensation to happen.

[beenthere]

Holmes
I understand that is the case as well.

[martyinmi]

I was under the impression that condensation has not place to develop with  spray foam insulation. If it is installed properly  no air can come in contact with the metal to allow condensation to happen.
[/quote]

The metal in our OWB's is constantly cycling-as in expanding and contracting. Urethane insulation appears to have a tendency to develop hairline fractures after time, as it cycles right along with the metal, and these fractures act as little shelves that hold moisture.

There is a fella here in Mi that sells the Garn brand of indoor gasser who goes by the handle "heaterman"(he frequents another site almost exclusively), and he has ran into this scenario while replacing failed urethane insulated OWB's with Garns.

I gather by reading his comments, as well as many others, that using urethane to insulate an OWB is an OK idea(boxing it in with urethane panels), so long as it is not sprayed directly onto the water holding vessel.

Insulating with sprayed on urethane(as seen in the CB videos) appears to be a very,very cost effective way to insulate an OWB, but from all I've read and digested, not necessarily the best.

My opinions are just that-opinions. I have spent more than a few hours reading and researching this very subject, and I've came up with the mindset that I have based on the information I've gathered.

As far as honoring their warranty's, both Pro Fab and CB are two of the best out there. I had a few minor issues with the little Pro Series 100 Empyre I had a few years ago and I had them taken care of in a very timely fashion. My FIL had his CB 5648 corrode through last year after 8 years of service and CB came in and replaced it for $3500.00 with a 6048, and it took less than 2 weeks. I was impressed with that.

Time for church. Have a great day!

[Holmes]

Very interesting information.  Garn in my opinion is the best wood burning boiler made.

[martyinmi]

I agree with you on that Holmes. A Garn isn't practical for me, however, as I don't have the room in my home for it, and a cemented, insulated, wired building to house it in(affectionately called a Garn Barn!) is not in my budget at this time. When mine fails(not if), I should be in a better position financially 10 years down the road to incorporate a mass storage system.
I have to admit that it would be pretty cool to just build a fire once every 2-3 days inside a heated building while sipping on a beer as opposed to feeding what I have twice daily. 

[boilerman101]

Sorry, I don't buy into your urethane is a bad notation idea. This is a claim manufacturers that don't use urethane continue tell.
Do you really believe Central Boiler would continue to use urethane since they started business back in 1984, now probably with over 100,000 furnaces in use if it was a failure problem? Me thinks not...You need air to create condensation. Air can't penetrate urethane.
If corrosion is happening under the foam, it would have to come frome the water jacket side eating out to the foam side. Probably caused by lack of a corrosion inhibitor maintained in the water jacket.

Oh and I was comparing the EPA straight up posted 8 hour burn times from EPA site.  E1450 = 120,529 btu vrs ProFab 200 =  66,290 btu.

http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/owhhlist.html

[levans]

I had an older boiler with  urethane, I just took it out of service, in order to sell it for scrap I striped all the  urethane off it. In some places the steel is flaking off in layers, if anyone wants pictures I can post them.
I just started using My new boiler, it took three wheelbarrows stacked full to get the water to temp with the old boiler, with the new one it took about ten pieces of split wood to get it to temp after filling with cold water.
To heat the hot water for the house and to keep the house warm for twenty four hours takes about a wheelbarrow filled level.
I love My new boiler!!   

[ga jones]

Urethane also breaks down under high temps.you may see where the urethane is seperated from the steel levans. Thats break down.rub your hand up and down on the inside of the urethane it may disintegrate.

[martyinmi]

Oh and I was comparing the EPA straight up posted 8 hour burn times from EPA site.  E1450 = 120,529 btu vrs ProFab 200 =  66,290 btu.

http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/owhhlist.html

I guess you didn't grasp what I was trying to illustrate. The actual BTU output of a given OWB is based on many factors, the biggest one being combustion chamber volume. As a rule, the 8 hour output (in BTU's) of a given OWB is proportionate to the primary burn chamber volume. In other words if you have one burn chamber with say 10 cu.ft. of volume and one with 20 cu.ft., on a wide open burn the unit with the larger capacity will produce roughly twice the BTU's of the smaller one. If you so choose, compare the chamber volumes vs the EPA BTU output of the two OWB's in question, do a bit of simple math, and you'll understand what I'm referring to. I haven't looked at the EPA's numbers, or even the manufacturer's chamber volumes in a few years, but if you do, you'll see that I'm correct. :P

   Remember, the 8 hour and the 12 hour ratings are both based on a weighed, full burn chamber at an all out wide open burn scenario. I'll wager that if we could obtain copies of the actual tests of the two boilers in question, we'd see that in the first few hours of operation the two units BTU outputs would be very close in hourly output. The OWB with the smaller primary burn chamber will obviously begin to fall in BTU output as it runs out of fuel, and the larger one will not.

I have a copy of the testing that Intertech(the facility that does the lion's share of testing) did for my OWB. It's a bit overwhelming to read and understand at first, but once you get a grasp of the what's and how's,it's very interesting.

I apologize to all for my part in the temporary highjacking of this thread, as well as to the CB OWB gasser owners. There are only 3 or 4 manufacturers out there that I would seriously consider when purchasing a gasifying OWB, and CB is definitely one of them, just not the top one.......IN MY OPINION!

[ga jones]

You would make a good used car salesman boilerman.

[clww]

Great posts, marty! I learned much more than I knew before. We may get an OWB in the next few years for our log cabin.

[ga jones]

boilerman Your on your 3rd cb in 12 years. Why are they so good that you have invested upwards of $20,000+ in twelve years? Theres hardys around here that are 25 years old and still burning.If you would have kept the first one you could have bought $13,000+ worth of cut split firewood and not worry about the 30% gain in efficiency.(And still burned your garbage)

[boilerman101]

Because I like the latest and the greatest!
As I've posted before, my best huntin buddy is a CB dealer.
So I bought the classic 5648, E2300 & my current E2400 at his dealer cost.
When I sell them, I still get close to what I paid for them.
I like this E2400 so much though, I don't know that I will trade out of this one.
He's going to hook me up with CB's new XP mobil monitoring feature shortly.
Granted, that is an unfair advantage over most buyers.
There was nothing wrong with any of my previous furnaces when I sold them.
I'm sure that classic 5648 would have lasted me 25 years too. no rust anywhere in that firebox.

[tpyounome]

Treeperch

It has been over 5 weeks since you started this thread.  I was wondering if you had made a descision on your OWB yet.

[Logging logginglogging]

I just looked at the GARN systems on their site. They look complicated, A pain to install, since you need to build a brick building. And I just generally dont like the looks of the setup. Has anyone seen these used before? where in the country do people use these?
Before today I have never even heard of them.

[beenthere]

Looks like a well built OWB.

[WmFritz]

Looks like a well built OWB.

Second that... if I had the room and deeper pockets, the Garn looks like the ultimate set-up.

I have to tell you guys... I have been trying to talk the CFO into an OWB for years. Every tractor pull or county fair we went to, she knew I would hit all the vendors tents and come away with all their literature. :D.   I  could never convince her that gathering firewood, processing it and stoking the stove is good excersize for her. But, now with the mill around, she sees the amount of free heat piling up.  She's actually pushing me to buy a stove.

I always thought I would go with a simple boiler but, the the more I looked at the gassers, the more I wanted to go that way. Last week I talked to a bunch of different dealers and now I'm rethinking the outdoor boiler and possibly going with an indoor gasser.  smiley_fused_bomb

Here's one I want to take a close look at this week... its a new concept but, looks interesting to me. http://www.heissheaters.com

[Logging logginglogging]

I would much rather have a non complicated reasonably priced boiler. So noone on here has ever seen one of these in action? where in the country are these popular?

[Logging logginglogging]

Because I like the latest and the greatest!
As I've posted before, my best huntin buddy is a CB dealer.
So I bought the classic 5648, E2300 & my current E2400 at his dealer cost.
When I sell them, I still get close to what I paid for them.
I like this E2400 so much though, I don't know that I will trade out of this one.
He's going to hook me up with CB's new XP mobil monitoring feature shortly.
Granted, that is an unfair advantage over most buyers.
There was nothing wrong with any of my previous furnaces when I sold them.
I'm sure that classic 5648 would have lasted me 25 years too. no rust anywhere in that firebox.

wow how long do you keep them? even with a discount constantly swapping must be pricy?

[chopper888]

I am in Central Illinois and have had a CB for about 4 years now.  One of my friends has a 15 year old HeatMor, another has a 2 year old Heatmor(had a Taylor for 18 years before that) and another has a 20 year old Taylor(been rebuilt twice).  I currently heat about 2000sf house, hot water and a 32 x 36 insulated shed.  We all burn mostly locust, hedge, oak and hickory.  It is generally dead or seasoned, but with some occasional green mixed in.  IMO, I would not purchase a CB again.  They are a pain to ash out and with the natural draft, they seldom burn the wood entirely.  Even when you stir the coals/ash regularly, there is always a fair amount of chunks that did not burn when I ash the boiler.  CB makes an add-on blower kit and I installed it.  It helped somewhat when the boiler was full of wood, but since the opening is well above the bottom of the firebox, when your wood gets low, it will just blow cold air over the top of the coals and fill your boiler with cold air...thus cooling it off quickly.  I fabricated a metal piece to direct the air down at the bottom, but it only marginally helped. 

Also, my shed has a heated floor.  Since these do not call as often, you will have a large dump of cold water into the boiler at one time when it does kick on.  The CB does not handle this well.  I changed the floor to a manual control instead of thermostat because I woke up too many nights with a cold house and cold boiler.  If the floor kicked on at 2am, it would burn the boiler out of wood and go cold.  I generally keep the shed at about 45 in the winter unless I am working in there.  I have since installed a water-air fan coil in addition to the floor and this is much easier on the boiler.  I only run the floor if I know I am going to be in there working on something on the floor.  Otherwise, the FCU is on a thermostat. 

Based on my personal experience(just an opinion from a residential user), I would not purchase another CB.  Keep in mind though, I have not looked at the newer high efficiency models.   Based on the recovery time, procedure for removing ash, controls design and parts, etc, I would prefer the Heatmor.  You simply auger the ash from the bottom(60 seconds instead of 15 minutes).  Also, the fan blows from the bottom center of the firebox directly up into the fire, so even when you are down to coals, it stays warm and fires right up.  And, most all the parts are simple and available. 

I am curious to hear anyone reaction or opinion on this post. 

[Dean186]

Chopper888, 

Which model of Central Boiler do you own?  You have a lot of information, but I did not see a model.  Later you spoke of not owning a high efficiency model, so I assume its not an E-Classic.

[Dean186]

Boilerman's progression of OWB looks normal to me, that is, if I were getting a good discount like him.

(1) Upgrade from the classic 5648 to a high efficiency stove like the E-Classic 2300.  Yes

(2) Then, perhaps realizing the challenges of the first E2300s, upgraded to the even higher efficiency of the E-classic 2400.  Yes

A move I would have made if the price were right. 

I was lucky to have started with an E-Classic 1400.  New users are looking at some pretty solid choices out there these days - IMO.