Hey everyone, I was running an LT 40 Super last week. It only had one pump working on it and was still faster than my mill. I'm guessing it's the bigger hydraulic lines. Has anyone added just bigger lines and not another pump on their regular hydraulic mill? Wood-Mizer quoted me $1200 for another pump, lines, etc... It's not really justifiable for me as I'm a one man show. Though it would be nice for a little more speed at low cost. I think the bigger lines are 1/2" compared to the standard 3/8"?? Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks! :)
Not so sure bigger lines will help ,it seems to me that increaseing line volume could actualy hurt operating speed unless the pump size was also increased. Not sure I know what I am talking about but thats just my take on it ....
Check out the supers hydraulic pumps gpm versus yours also. bg
Scully pretty much nailed it.
Dave
I just figured if the Super is still faster with only one pump working, then it would work to put bigger lines on my mill. When you say "hurt operating speed" do you mean decrease speed or damage the pump?
hydraulic speed is purely a function of flow rate. large lines will not slow down hydrualics.
most likely the super has a larger flow rate pump on it. HP and flow rate are tied together. you might be able to swap just the pump on the end of the motor to a larger flow rate pump. but without increasing the HP of the motor driveing it, you may not see a significant increase in speed (perhaps only under no load conditions)
Scully has it, if you increase the hose size the pump will have more volume to fill/pump (this due to the bigger hoses). This will cause a delayed response when you call on the hydraulic system (due to the increased hose volume and flow required) and the added time it takes your old pump to build pressure. Changing to a higher flow pump will be the right way to go IF you increase the size of your hoses. IMHO In either case (up-sizing hoses or installing a higher displacement pump with the original lines) would have an adverse effect on the hydraulic system. You would find out where at the weakest point of the system and that would be a bad thing...
Larger hoses will not affect the speed of your mill, unless they are small enough to cause a restriction. If you put 5 gpm into a hydraulic hose, you are going to get 5 gpm out of it, even if it is much bigger than you need. Because hydraulic fluid is non-compressible, it will build pressure at the same speed either way. The Super series mill uses two 12VDC pumps, and the standard uses one. The only way to go faster is to add another pump.
highleadtimber16:
The standard flow equation is Q=AxV.
Q= quantity (cu. ft / min) There are 7.48 gallons in a cu. ft.
A= area (pi x r x r (r needs to be in feet))
V= velocity of the flow (feet per minute)
So going to larger lines will result in the velocity through the lines to be slower, unless you increase the capacity of the pump. I hope I got it right as I went from memory. I hear that that is the second thing to go. I forgot what is the first thing to go is/was. Gerald
Yes, the velocity will be slower, but the displacement will be the same, so the cylinder will always more at the same rate.
GAB nailed it, volume comes from the pump, speed comes from transmission line diameter, david
The line diameter will not affect the speed at which the cylinder moves. Period. If you pump 5 gallons of oil through a hose over the period of 1 minute, you will get 5 gallons of oil out the other end over the period of 1 minute. It doesn't matter if it's 3/8" line or 2" line, the cylinder will move the same distance over the same period of time.
The reason for a larger line is to accommodate larger volumes of oil without restriction. Trying to force 5 gallons a minute through an 1/8" line will result in elevated pressures and temperatures. Pump that same 5 gallons a minute through a 1" line, and you will have pressures and temperatures well within the safe range for a hydraulic system.
Quote from: Dave Shepard on December 17, 2013, 08:12:31 PM
The line diameter will not affect the speed at which the cylinder moves. Period. If you pump 5 gallons of oil through a hose over the period of 1 minute, you will get 5 gallons of oil out the other end over the period of 1 minute. It doesn't matter if it's 3/8" line or 2" line, the cylinder will move the same distance over the same period of time.
The reason for a larger line is to accommodate larger volumes of oil without restriction. Trying to force 5 gallons a minute through an 1/8" line will result in elevated pressures and temperatures. Pump that same 5 gallons a minute through a 1" line, and you will have pressures and temperatures well within the safe range for a hydraulic system.
And there are those of us who stand corrected, my memory is not what is was, been awhile in fluid transmission, thanks dave, He just needs pump with more gpm, right? david
Yes, more gpm will move the cylinders faster. I'm not trying to be a know-it-all, but I don't want highlead to go out and buy a bunch of bigger hoses and not be happy. :)
Guys, thanks for the replies. :) This still makes me wonder why the Super "only has one pump working" is still quicker?
Makes sense... I knew the pump was the answer just didn't know how to say it in engineering language :embarassed:
Quote from: highleadtimber16 on December 17, 2013, 08:47:40 PM
Guys, thanks for the replies. :) This still makes me wonder why the Super "only has one pump working" is still quicker?
I wondered if it really is faster, but assuming so, and that the pumps are the same, could it be that the Super is maintaining a higher voltage either because of its larger alternator or because its battery is in better condition?
I was thinking it might be voltage as well. More likely it is a viscosity issue. If the Super is running thinner oil and/or bigger hoses, it may function faster. My Super moves faster once the oil warms up this time of year.
Right, HLT, your mill on a cold day vs. the Super on a warmer one?
To operate a Super on one hydraulic pump, the lower connecting hose must be closed (pinched) off to prevent the operating pump from "back flowing" through the non-operating pump. (Also, plugs could be placed in the pumps) This is not an easy chore. Just saying...
My Super used 3/8" hoses for everything except the toe boards and the clamp up-down. They are ¼".
Do both mills have the weight same oil?
I have looked at the speed of a Super as compared to my LT 40 and found the reason is the up-down motor is bigger and faster on a Super. So the speed difference is DC powered, not hydraulic.
And Dave is right on the hydraulics. Hopefully you only fill a hydraulic hose once. After that what you put in one end has to come out the other.
Quote from: Magicman on December 18, 2013, 08:45:05 AM
To operate a Super on one hydraulic pump, the lower connecting hose must be closed (pinched) off to prevent the operating pump from "back flowing" through the non-operating pump. (Also, plugs could be placed in the pumps) This is not an easy chore. Just saying...
My Super used 3/8" hoses for everything except the toe boards and the clamp up-down. They are ¼".
Off topic but I found I could plug the non-operating pump by taking off its cap, and using a small screwdriver take the cap apart to expose the foam filter inside. Then I put a short bolt (think it was 1/4-20 but not sure, but in any case it just fit snugly in the hole) up through the hole, put a nut on it, then put the cap back together to hold the bolt.
Haven't read all replies but one consideration is the fittings. A 1" hose going into a 3/8" fitting is going to be the restriction. Can't say if the cylinders are different super vs. std. 40.