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Another (Nyle L200M) kiln build!

Started by busenitzcww, November 24, 2019, 10:03:59 PM

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busenitzcww

So, after talking to Stan, and deciding to pull the trigger, my kiln components showed up Friday! I've been swamped in the shop with projects, but finally catching up, so I'm hoping in the next week or two to start construction. I haven't nailed down the exact size but was initially thinking around 16' so I can do a 8'6" pallet and than a small 4' pallet or a 6'6" x2 combo. It's hard to decide, but one way or another it's going to be too short eventually;D 

Also, I would like to make it moveable if possible but don't want an tailend loader so shipping container is kinda out of the picture. I have a wheeloader with 9' long forks and 8' wide so size/weight isn't a concern, but I'm trying to decide on the best way to lay the floor construction out. Thinking maybe just building on top of some railroad ties to get it off the ground. 

I've been following many of you guy's builds and have picked up some great tips but I'm open to any and all suggestions!


 

Southside

My suggestion would be to put it into what you don't want to put it into, as that is by far the least work and results in a very tight, easy to maintain kiln.  No way I could have constructed a building for what my insulated container cost me.  I might have had 6 hours into ground prep and then had the box delivered.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

scsmith42

My suggestion would be to size it based upon your common lumber lengths.  My 20' wide kilns allow me to easily put up to 18' long lumber in them or a pair of 8' stacks side by side, or a 10' and 8' stack.  Since 16' logs are fairly common in the industry, a 20' opening provides good clearance for ingress and egress.

The other thing to think of is what species / thicknesses you commonly dry.  An L200 is good for around 4000 bd ft of 4/4 green oak, or 1300 bd ft of green 4/4 poplar or 4/4 syp.  If you plan to always air dry first then you can load more lumber in it.

If you start by determining your common stack widths, heights and depths - correlated to the kiln capacity, that will help guide you on it's dimensions.

You will want a couple of feet minimum in front of and behind the stacks for proper air flow.  Per Gene Wengert, your minimum distance in front of and in back of the stacks should be equal to or greater than the combined thickness of all of your stickered layers.

My Nyle is typically loaded with 30 layers (3/4" stickers), so my minimum distance in front of and behind the stacks would be around 2' on each side.  

The next kiln chamber that I make will be approximately 28' from side to side to allow me to put two 12' stacks side by side, or a single stack of 24' lumber (max length for my band mill) inside. It will be approximately 12' deep to allow for proper airflow, and tall enough for me to stack two 2000' bd ft packs of stickered lumber on top of one another, or four 1000 bd ft bundles of lumber side by side and on top of each other.  That works out to be around 12 tall inside based upon 24" of fan wall above the stacks.

My stacks are around 48" deep (based upon my standard fork lengths), so a pair of 8' wide stacks, 48" deep would have approximately 60 layers total to comprise 4000 bd ft.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

busenitzcww

I'm going to be drying 90% hardwood like walnut, ash, oak, and maybe a bit of red cedar. Scsmith, are you front or end loading on your kilns? I'd  like the capacity of two 8' pallets but then the doors get so wide. I really don't want to mess with a cart though either.  
How many bf of oak is the L200 good for? I see it says 4000 on the manual, but your saying 2000?

scsmith42

Quote from: busenitzcww on November 25, 2019, 08:32:04 AM
I'm going to be drying 90% hardwood like walnut, ash, oak, and maybe a bit of red cedar. Scsmith, are you front or end loading on your kilns? I'd  like the capacity of two 8' pallets but then the doors get so wide. I really don't want to mess with a cart though either.  
How many bf of oak is the L200 good for? I see it says 4000 on the manual, but your saying 2000?
The 2000 was a typo - I meant to type 4000.
I have one kiln that I load from the end with carts, and 4 that I front load.  The front loaders are all solar kilns; one is 14' wide, one is 18' wide, and two are 20 footers.
Personally I think that front loading is faster than cart loading. This is one of the few items that Robert (Yellowhammer) and I disagree on.  
An L200 is good for about 2000 - 2,500 bd ft of 4/4 black walnut at 6% MC loss per day.  Ash is similar to oak and Cedar air dries so well that it's almost not worth running thru a kiln.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

YellowHammer

Cargo container kilns are for moving, stick built, not so much.

I have a stick built front door loading kiln.  I load it with a forklift.  It's easy.  I'm always fighting the wide door seals.

I also have a cargo container kiln, I never have any problems with it.  It can and has been moved around, it's built for that.  I load the carts with a forklift, and push them in. It's also easy.  The seals are always tight and perfect. 

The seals are the key, the doors must have good seals.

I also have a stick build front loader solar kiln I move with my loader. The seals always get racked when I move it, but it's a solar kiln, so it doesn't really matter.  
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

busenitzcww

Good info, I keep going back and forth.... I'm not necessarily planning on moving it but just want that as a possibility. I'm also a little limited on available/convenient ground space so having a track as long as my kiln isn't appealing either.

So if I go 20' wide (two pallets of 8'6") how tall does my ceiling need to be  in order to get to the 4000 bf of oak? I'm thinking that I'm going to need 12' ceilings?

scsmith42

Quote from: busenitzcww on November 26, 2019, 10:55:19 PM
Good info, I keep going back and forth.... I'm not necessarily planning on moving it but just want that as a possibility. I'm also a little limited on available/convenient ground space so having a track as long as my kiln isn't appealing either.

So if I go 20' wide (two pallets of 8'6") how tall does my ceiling need to be  in order to get to the 4000 bf of oak? I'm thinking that I'm going to need 12' ceilings?
Depends upon the depth of your pallets, which in turn depends upon the length of your forklift forks....
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

busenitzcww

Quote from: scsmith42 on November 27, 2019, 08:02:45 PM
Quote from: busenitzcww on November 26, 2019, 10:55:19 PM
Good info, I keep going back and forth.... I'm not necessarily planning on moving it but just want that as a possibility. I'm also a little limited on available/convenient ground space so having a track as long as my kiln isn't appealing either.

So if I go 20' wide (two pallets of 8'6") how tall does my ceiling need to be  in order to get to the 4000 bf of oak? I'm thinking that I'm going to need 12' ceilings?
Depends upon the depth of your pallets, which in turn depends upon the length of your forklift forks....
My pallets are 4'x8'6" which I think is close to what most people use?

scsmith42

Each 48x96" layer of 4/4 oak will be comprised of 32 board feet.  Two pallets side by side will contain 64 board feet per layer.  Based on that, 4000 bd ft require 62 layers tall.  Presuming that your boards are 1-1/8" and you use 3/4" stickers, each layer of lumber and stickers will be 1-7/8".

So you'll be loading your pallets with 1000 bd ft each (6000 lbs green), approximately 31 layers tall, stacked side by side and two high.

You'll need 118" of height to the bottom of your fans/baffles, plus 6 inches for each of your pallets (12" total / two pallets per stack) and a few more inches (say 6") for clearance when loading.  

I would stack two pallets side by side with two more on top of them, as this will provide a better airflow compared with two pallets front and back or four pallets wide.  Be sure to baffle in-between the supports on your pallets so that you don't lose air flow.

Basically you'll need 12' from the floor to the bottom of your baffles.  Add another 2' for your fans and your interior height needs to be 14'.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

Scsmith42 has done a nice job.  One small addition is that if you have thick and thin lumber, and most mills can have 1/16" variation or even more, it is the thicker pieces that determine the height, not the average.  So, the 1-7/8" can sometimes be closer to 1-15/16".  Therefore, adding an inch or two to the final calculations makes sure you have enough room.  

This variation is also why when we stack two pallets next to each other, edge to edge, giving an 8 foot wide pile combined, the two pallets need about a 4" gap between them to allow the air to adjust slightly when it leaves one stack and goes into the next stack...the sticker openings will not line up perfectly.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

Tom the Sawyer

Unless your fan panel swings down into working position, I'd leave another few inches for lifting the top pallet.
07 TK B-20, Custom log arch, 20' trailer w/log loading arch, F350 flatbed dually dump.  Piggy-back forklift.  LS tractor w/FEL, Bobcat S250 w/grapple, Stihl 025C 16", Husky 372XP 24/30" bars, Grizzly 20" planer, Nyle L200M DH kiln.
If you call and my wife says, "He's sawin logs", I ain't snoring.

busenitzcww

Well it's been a little wet around here lately so not much had happened but it drying out and I'm hoping to get my base shaped up this week and possibly start building! 
Question for you guys who put access doors in on either side of the pile... do you feel like you loose substantial heat through these? I was wondering about extending another 4' section on the end of my kiln to house the electronics plus add structural stability to my side loading doors, and be an air space to help heat loss during the winter. Am I over thinking this one?

K-Guy

If you build your door like a section of the wall and seal the edges good it shouldn't be an issue.
Nyle Service Dept.
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
- D. Adams

busenitzcww

Anybody just use a conventional exterior door?

K-Guy

Quote from: busenitzcww on January 03, 2020, 08:54:16 AMAnybody just use a conventional exterior door?


I wouldn't recommend it, it creates a cold spot on the wall. They aren't insulated that well and they will leak as the gaskets are not high temp.
Nyle Service Dept.
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
- D. Adams

YellowHammer

The kiln chamber is actually a slightly pressurized system due to the fans, and the hot moisture laden air will seep through anything that is not sealed very well and give the electronics a corrosive steam bath if they seep into a control room.

I put mine inside a weatherproof, metal, truck bed tool box outside the kiln chamber.  It works fine.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

Perhaps it is obvious, in a DH kiln (and most other kilns too) the heat losses, through the floor, roof and walls, including doors, are large and quite expensive (because electricity is expensive).  Therefore, it is prudent to try to minimize such losses with good insulation (maybe 6" thick) that is kept dry with vapor barriers, with good door gaskets, with vent cover insulation, with no leaks, etc.

Appreciate that when the liquid water in the wood is turned into vapor, the volume expands, and, in a tight kiln, will create pressure inside.  When the DH is running, the cold coils will turn this vapor back into liquid, relieving the pressure,  but, usually the DH compressor cycles, which means the pressure inside a kiln goes up and down.  Plus on the one side of the fans there is a vacuum and on the other side positive pressure.  Any leaks in the wall create conduits for the enterance of outside air or exhaust for humid inside air.  Water vapor inside a wall is not helpful...expensive and shortens building life.  Bottom line...the tighter the walls, roof and floor, the better on your pocketbook and building life.

My crystal ball says electric rates are poised for a large increase due to potential issues with oil supplies and cost.  This makes energy savings even more critical.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

busenitzcww

 

 

Making a little progress. It's been warm here lately but crazy windy! Not looking forward to sheeting this thing! 
Should I get a 4th fan if I'm doing mostly pre/air dried lumber? 
Also curious if anybody out there had experience with Nyle's door seals? 
And lastly any pics of your access doors? TIA!

WDH

I got the nyle door seal kit for my L53 and it works great. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

busenitzcww

worked the late shift last week since I had two buddies come over and help ;D got a bit more done before the rain. Put up a bit more siding today but it's still pretty sloppy. Sunshine the next two days. Hoping to get the tin, siding and doors on.


 

rjwoelk

When I build a wall  I sheet the wall then stand it up.
Lt15 palax wood processor,3020 JD 7120 CIH 36x72 hay shed for workshop coop tractor with a duetz for power plant

busenitzcww

It's been a while but things have been crazy in the shop, but I finally got back to working on the kiln! I'm about ready to paint the inside and looking at all the different aluminum roofing paints and some really vary in price, and I'm wondering what the difference is? What did you guys use and did you put down two coats? How many sq ft coverage per gallon approximately? Pics to follow;D 

YellowHammer

I bought the stuff from Lowes, its really a nasty silver goop that requires substantial initial stirring because all the aluminum settles to the bottom in big clumps.  I don't remember how much coverage I got, but I know I put in on thick and ugly.  I probably used at least 10 gallons, and ruined as many shirts and paint brushes.  I finally just bought a very small push broom and used it as a big paint brush.


 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

WDH

Same for me.  Kool Seal from Lowes
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

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